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Author Topic:   Twelve
iAmThat
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From: Edison, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted September 27, 2004 08:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
When Jesus fed people approx 5000 from the five barley loaves and two small fish. He asked his disciples to ask the people to sit in groups of 12. Later.... 12 full baskets were leftover

What is the significance of 12? Are they the 12 signs of the zodiac?

I also remember he said, the journey to God in the ladder that extends from heart to Him consists of 12 steps in the ladder?
12 again?

12 disciples.

Whats the deal?

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Meili Zhiwei
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posted September 27, 2004 11:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Meili Zhiwei     Edit/Delete Message
*Deleted*

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iAmThat
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From: Edison, NJ, USA
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posted September 28, 2004 11:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
I think I got an answer. 12 are the 12 months. After dec comes Jan.

Is he talking of impermenace of the world.
And wanted to set a pattern for us so that when we study him it will ring a bell.
He also said I am the first and the last.

Does it mean that he is the first to be __resurrected__ in the last age and

and the last to be _____________ in the next age.

(Please fill in the gaps someone


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FishKitten
Knowflake

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From: beautiful, hidden mountain village, BC, Canada
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posted October 02, 2004 06:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FishKitten     Edit/Delete Message
12 - The Hanged Man - Mem - The Sea

THE HANGED MAN / NEPTUNE / POSEIDON
Surrender, change of viewpoint.
Suspension, study, the human form.
Samadhi - absorption into the infinite through meditation

· Number 12 is a probationary period in the realm of the soul, reflected in the primary colors, red, yellow, and blue, that are predominant.

· He hangs from a "T" shape made from tree parts. "T" is Tav (The World) and Tet (Strength)- concepts rendered in a human construction of living parts, like Ets Chaim, the Tree of Life.

· "Mind" and "Man" share the same Sanskrit root - here we have the "Mind in Suspension."

· Here, human will surrenders to divine will, represented by the tree/cross.
The Hanged Man shows reflection, among other things. The letter assigned to number 12 is Mem - which means waters, or oceans. Water was the first mirror - and the mirror gives us pause, forces us to re-evaluate.

· The number 12 shows the 12 signs of the Zodiac, a cycle of completion, and a balancing of the archetypes. Recall the 12 labors of Hercules, after which the young man is "left out to dry." This circular cycle is reflected on the opposite side of the Tree of Life, with the number 10, Wheel of Fortune.

· This is where the numerical flip occurs in the tree. This is the transition zone, where the polarity is reversed.

· Inversion is part of a process of mixing; the man, hanging pendulum-like, waits meditatively. It is his only option, being bound by circumstances.

· His position is an inverted alchemical glyph for sulphur, the chemical assigned to the Emperor card. His legs, in red, form a 4, number and color of the Emperor. The sulphur glyph is also a symbol of "Accomplishment of the Great Work-" a successful transformation of lead into gold. (or the heart of man into the heart of god)

· His relationship to the Emperor goes deeper. Aries, home sign of the Emperor, is impulsive, always leaping ahead. The Hanged Man shows holding back, a poised waiting, an assessment of the situation.

· His Red/Yellow/Blue color scheme refers to the Gevurah/Tiparet/Chesed triad.

· His position also suggests Hatha Yoga, a system of exercise. "Yoga" means "yoke," another form of restraint, or discipline. This is not hanging as in "lynching," or punishment, this is self control for a higher purpose.

· His calm expression tells us that he has chosen his position willingly. His feet are rooted in Heaven.

· Number 12 shows inversion, reversal, mirroring, seeing the other point of view.

Neptune

Neptune's placement at birth influences the person's connection to the superconscious, to their generational position.
Neptune shapes how a person will identify with their peers, how their spiritual love will develop. Neptune is the higher octave of Venus. Afflictions to Neptune create delusions, obsessions, psychoses, addictions, being an outcast, a two-dimensional person.
Troublesome Neptune transits can lend a dreamlike quality to life, lack of focus, confusion and ambiguity. Good transits can be "Dreams Come True," flashes of insight, and inspirational dreams or encounters.
Neptune takes 164.8 years to complete its orbit through the zodiac.
Neptune moves so slowly, that its house placement is considered of more vital importance.
Neptune is Exalted in Cancer, and Rules Pisces. Neptune's detriment is Virgo and its fall is Capricorn.
The Sepher on the Tree of Life associated with Neptune is Kochma.


Kochma
The Second Path
Oceanic Consciousness / Wisdom / Revelation / Light / Memory
As previously mentioned, Kochma's planet is Neptune.

Kochma is the realm of the third eye, deepest meditation, ultimate benevolence, masterful creativity.

Kochma is Wisdom. It is also known of as "Ab-" the "Father."

KOCHMA, or "Oceanic Consciousness," is the second sphere after the abyss; It is the midst of the spiritual realm, on the same level as BINAH, balancing the highest energies in readiness for KETER.

Kochma, forming a triad with Binah and Keter, balances three forces: Spiritual love and awareness (Binah), Spiritual will and purpose (Kochma), and the infinite realized self (Keter). These three spheres could be compared to the 'Father, Son, and Holy Ghost' in the Christian pantheon.
Kochma is the wisdom beyond reason. Spiritual leaders and people who inspire us can embody this quality.

Potentials of Kochma: Developing purpose and initiative, manifesting the universal plan in the world, genius, logos, pure spirit, transformation.

Kochma is the first real manifestation of en soph, containing the ideal plan of all the worlds.

Kochma is pure, undifferentiated mind, before words - the tools of differentiation. With words come the "olam ha pirud," the "world of distinctions."

Who is wise? The one who learns from everyone they meet.


The Talmud

The person who operates from Kochma can even learn from evil. Only on the lower levels, starting with Binah, where words and language begin, does differentiation between good and evil occur.

Balance, always a core concept in Qabala, manifests itself in the transpersonal triad as a synthesis of our highest thinking, feeling and awareness.

Transpersonal Triad "colors" are light, the absence of light (dark), and half-light.
The fragrance ascribed to Kochma is Musk. The characters associated with Kochma are Poseidon, and Neptune.

Commandment: Do not worship idols.

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Petron
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posted October 02, 2004 09:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Petron     Edit/Delete Message
wouldnt it seem that the 12 signs of the zodiac are analagous to the twelve notes of a musical scale?
here is a good explanation i found........

"a mathematical 'mean' or 'mean proportional' concerned the division of a quantity, or line segment, into sections that are in a clearly defined and simple ratio. Between two extremes, or outer terms of a given ratio, a third, or mean, term is placed; and by its relationship to the two extremes, an organized mathematical progression is created. A harmony or wholeness is thereby brought into the progression by virtue of these mutual relationships; the extremes are harmonized by their relationship to the mean or middle term and the whole and its parts are brought into a well proportioned harmony. For example, let us take two terms of a ratio, one of which is twice the other, in this case 6 and 12. A mean term placed between these two extremes divides the ratio into two proportions fitting together with a specific inner harmony. In the case of what was called the arithmetic mean, the mean term divides the extremes so that each term exceeds the previous by the same amount - such as in the progression 6:9:12, where 9 exceeds 6 by 3 and 12 exceeds 9 by 3. In other words, the terms increase in a simple arithmetic progression by equal increments. In this case, the mean divides the original double ratio of 6:12 into the ratios 6:9 and 9:12. Reduced to lowest terms, we can say that 1/2 divided by the arithmetic mean, yields 2/3 and 3/4.

With what was known the harmonic mean, the mean term is distant from each of the extremes by the same fraction of that extreme. For example, between 6 and 12, the harmonic mean is 8. So in the progression 6:8:12, the mean term 8 is greater than 6 by 1/3 of 6 and is less than 12 by 1/3 of 12. Here we have the inverse of the arithmetic mean, and we arrive at ratios which reduce to 3/4 followed by 2/3. In this whole series then, (applying both the arithmetic and harmonic means) we have 6:8:9:12 -- or, in equivalent fractional terms -- 1/2, 2/3, 3/4, and1."
http://www.cranfordpub.com/otis/on_the_pythagorean_traditi.htm


this is also analogous to the platonic solid....the dodecahedron with its twelve pentagonal faces......
i BELIEVE that with the recent proofs for Fermats last theorem by Andrew Wiles,combined with Grigori Perelman's recent proof of the Poincare Conjecture,will someday prove that spacial manifolds are dodecahedral, and therefore the entire "universe" could be "shaped" this way.....

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Dodecahedron.html
http://www.innerx.net/personal/tsmith/PDS3.html

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iAmThat
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From: Edison, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted October 03, 2004 01:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
Hi Petron,


Thanks for the useful link.

The link that you provided that is http://www.innerx.net/personal/tsmith/PDS3.html

Has a mention of Sri Yantra vehicle. This is considered to be a secret knowledge of the Vedic people in India long time ago. It contains the 5 elements (air,water,fire,space,earth) and at the center of the diagram is the abode of the God. Theres more like each petal represents a diety. Its good food for thought. I will explore it.

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iAmThat
Knowflake

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From: Edison, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted October 03, 2004 01:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
If someone is following this post. I just found out that the creator of the universe is not seven angels who stood before face of God but 12 archeons. This was stated in the Gnosis (Nag Hammadi ) library.

Interesting.


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FishKitten
Knowflake

Posts: 834
From: beautiful, hidden mountain village, BC, Canada
Registered: Aug 2003

posted October 03, 2004 09:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for FishKitten     Edit/Delete Message
I strongly recommend reading "The Hypostasis of the Archons" in the Nag Hammadi Documents. It is an eye-opening experience to read the creation story and other texts translated directly from the original. Unfortuantely, the Bible as we now know it has been changed so drastically from the original texts, much of it bears little resemblence to the message given at the time.

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juniperb
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From: www.Heaven.Home
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posted October 03, 2004 10:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message
Fishkitten, I have missed you

Excellent recommendation! Each time it is read, a little more clarity awakens.

------------------
If having a soul means being able to feel love and loyalty and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans. ~James Herriot

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Meili Zhiwei
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posted October 03, 2004 03:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Meili Zhiwei     Edit/Delete Message
*Deleted*

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Moon666Child
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From: Cochin,Kerala,India
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posted October 04, 2004 01:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moon666Child     Edit/Delete Message
Would it be because the number 13 is Holy, and every great leader/master has tweleve disciples?

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iAmThat
Knowflake

Posts: 457
From: Edison, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted October 10, 2004 01:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
I think I found out why Twelve.
Since the people were all Jews, he made them sit in groups of 12.


12 is the number of the Jews. There are I think seventy brother hood of men. And Jews number is 12.

Why seventy its because 7 * 10 = 70. 7 is the number of Mankind times the number of God which is 10.


Well thats what I believe.


Peace.

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FishKitten
Knowflake

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From: beautiful, hidden mountain village, BC, Canada
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posted October 12, 2004 03:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FishKitten     Edit/Delete Message
Sweet Sister Meili...what lovely questions. My aplogies for not getting back to this sooner, but I was off camping at the foot of a glacier trying to find (and film) the elusive white grizzley bear. I love all the issues you have brought forward. I will consider them for a bit and answer soon!

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iAmThat
Knowflake

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From: Edison, NJ, USA
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posted October 12, 2004 10:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
Why 10 is number of God? The God we see and experience is the 4 dimensions (3 of space and 1 that of time).

The other 6 is dimension of unseen. No one in body has gone there to come back and describe to you, what it is like.

And since God is all. The number of God is 10 (4 + 6).

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FishKitten
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posted October 12, 2004 11:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FishKitten     Edit/Delete Message
10 as the numbwer of God has lots to do with the Tree of Life and the 10 Sefirots.

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FishKitten
Knowflake

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From: beautiful, hidden mountain village, BC, Canada
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posted October 13, 2004 12:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for FishKitten     Edit/Delete Message
12 - The Hanged Man - Mem - The Sea

Meili: Is this the same “sea” that mystics such as Rumi speak of?

- Yes, it is the same sea…the great ocean of all that can be…the Nexus….represented in physical manifestation as the seas of the Earth to remind us of the depths from which we originate. I like the philosophy espoused by Rumi, although I think there are more convenient ways than whirling to find what one seeks.

Number 12 is a probationary period in the realm of the soul, reflected in the primary colors, red, yellow, and blue, that are predominant.

Meili: Have you noticed that in the ancient sites of South America (I can’t remember the exact ones), there are two pyramids that are stained at the peak with red and blue. So where is the yellow?

- Perhaps at Teotihuacan where the cap has been removed since by greedy hands.

"Mind" and "Man" share the same Sanskrit root - here we have the "Mind in Suspension”.

Meili: You might also consider that absolutes are expressed most well in extreme opposites...so we might say that the mind is in “suspension” OR we might equally say the mind is in “the universe” (also sometimes called the Universal Intellect).

- Very well put.

Here, human will surrenders to divine will, represented by the tree/cross.

The Hanged Man shows reflection, among other things. The letter assigned to number 12 is Mem - which means waters, or oceans. Water was the first mirror - and the mirror gives us pause, forces us to re-evaluate.

Meili: How does this mirror work for you?

- Quite well, thanks! As previously discussed, water, or the sea, represents the great stream of All, the ocean of life, the Nexus. Sometimes it is best not to run after that which one seeks, but instead to sit still and let the sought approach the seeker. The sounds, the smells, the feelings brought about by the sea speak for themselves. I recently had a chance to live on an uninhabited island in the Pacific and search for the Old Ones. The sea always soothes and cleanses my soul.

Inversion is part of a process of mixing; the man, hanging pendulum-like, waits meditatively. It is his only option, being bound by circumstances.

Meili: Terms often cause many problems...instead of the term “inversion”, which has connotations of “opposite”, try also (not in place of) the concept of the mirror…not opposite, not inverted, just a perfect other reflective aspect…and who is to say which is the Real eh?

- I like the mirror concept much better. It illustrates the message more clearly.

His relationship to the Emperor goes deeper. Aries, home sign of the Emperor, is impulsive, always leaping ahead. The Hanged Man shows holding back, a poised waiting, an assessment of the situation.

Meili: You may wish to substitute “holding back” with something like “viewing” or “observing”...holding back is control while the other two involve being a harmonic Witness to the Design.

- Once again, I like that illustration better.

His position also suggests Hatha Yoga, a system of exercise. "Yoga" means "yoke," another form of restraint, or discipline. This is not hanging as in "lynching," or punishment, this is self control for a higher purpose.

Meili: you may want to substitute “self control” with the Taoist concept of “non motion”.

- Yes, because “self control” or “discipline” can suggest to some that temptation is present, where in this circumstance, one is concerned more with “non motion” or the energy of the self represented in kinetic form.

His calm expression tells us that he has chosen his position willingly. His feet are rooted in Heaven.

Meili: Consider that he is not chosen but Compelled by Love.

- Ah, but it is always our choice whether or not to follow the Path of Love…though all paths lead home in the end/beginning.

Number 12 shows inversion, reversal, mirroring, seeing the other point of view.

Meili: Perhaps “being another point of view” is better?

- You have a delightful way of putting things, dear Meili.

Kochma
The Second Path
Oceanic Consciousness / Wisdom / Revelation / Light / Memory

Meili: When Consciousness is clear, Wisdom dawns and floods the Memory with Light.

- and isn’t it wonderful…that sudden knowledge and joy that cannot be explained or denied?

Kochma is the first real manifestation of en soph, containing the ideal plan of all the worlds.

Meili: Perhaps substitute “ideal plan” for the word “Design”

- Golden Spiral, Golden Ratio, original thought of “what would it be like if….”

The Talmud
The person who operates from Kochma can even learn from evil. Only on the lower levels, starting with Binah, where words and language begin, does differentiation between good and evil occur. – refer to the concept of mirrors for understanding evil and the lessons it contains
Balance, always a core concept in Qabala, manifests itself in the transpersonal triad as a synthesis of our highest thinking, feeling and awareness.

Meili: Consider substituting the word “balance” with “integration”.

- and the cheer goes up from the ego…two, four, six, eight, I don’t want to integrate…bed time, silly ego…let’s listen to the stars for a while. There is nothing that is not God.

Transpersonal Triad "colors" are light, the absence of light (dark), and half-light.

Meili: A new perspective...white black silver and gold...how do these complement the notion here?

- As above, so below.

Commandment: Do not worship idols.

Meili: Find them first and then you may come to Obedience.

- and finally to Understanding.

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iAmThat
Knowflake

Posts: 457
From: Edison, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted October 13, 2004 09:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
FishKitten and Meile : Wonderful exchanges. I will have to read it again after some time.

Fishkitten would you be kind to explain what you meant by Neptune influence on chart. Could you please interpret mine?


==========
Neptune in the Second House
Neptune in Sagittarius
Sun Trine Neptune
Neptune Trine Midheaven
Neptune Sextile Pluto

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FishKitten
Knowflake

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From: beautiful, hidden mountain village, BC, Canada
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posted October 13, 2004 10:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for FishKitten     Edit/Delete Message
IAmThat...I will give your placements some thought and get back to you. With all the fabulous astrologers in Lindaland, we should get some great feedback.

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iAmThat
Knowflake

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From: Edison, NJ, USA
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posted October 13, 2004 01:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
Hi FishKitten

I agree LL is full of great astrolgers. A few are Qabalistic as you are

I just got introduced to Qabala. Its very profound and I agree with them, the seeker must really seek and that comes when you mature lets say when you are 30 and above.

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iAmThat
Knowflake

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From: Edison, NJ, USA
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posted October 14, 2004 10:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
I wonder why I said 30. The Qabalistics literature recommends 45 (I think, not sure)?

Hmm..once again 30 the magical number.

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iAmThat
Knowflake

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From: Edison, NJ, USA
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posted October 22, 2004 11:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
Ah ha...how about the 12 strands of DNA.


PEACE.

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iAmThat
Knowflake

Posts: 457
From: Edison, NJ, USA
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posted November 07, 2004 01:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
OK hows this :

Does human currently realized potential of 2 strands of DNA? That is a total of 1024 combinations.

What has the 12 strands got to do with the number 72000? Can some microbiologist contribute please ???

Does this mean in new Age, humans would have 12 strands of DNA fully realized??? Are babies born realizing 3 strands of DNA today???

ARe the people already born undergoing body changes??? Does anyone experience fatigue? A need to sleep more? nails growing longer than usual? hair growing more stronger?

Well thats some food for thought. I would certainly keep my eyes open for any news and update you all.

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juniperb
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posted November 10, 2004 11:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message
Peace iAmThat, you may be on to something

------------------
If having a soul means being able to feel love and loyalty and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans. ~James Herriot

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