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Author Topic:   Does Evil Exist?
Heart&Soul
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posted October 12, 2004 01:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart&Soul     Edit/Delete Message
The university professor challenged his students with this
question.

"Did God create everything that exists?"

A student bravely replied, "Yes, he did!"

"God created everything?" The professor asked.

"Yes sir", the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then God is evil".

The student became quiet before such an answer. The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question
professor?"

"Of course", replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never
been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (- 460 degrees F) is the total
absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can
break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already
said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's
inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

The young man's name --- Albert Einstein

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Randall
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posted October 12, 2004 05:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things."

------------------
"Never mentally imagine for another that which you would not want to experience for yourself, since the mental image you send out inevitably comes back to you." Rebecca Clark

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iAmThat
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posted October 12, 2004 11:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
HnS,
Bravo. Don't wish to criticise but I doubt Einstein wrote that. He was an atheist.

Every human is God. Sometimes when you are perfect and realize it, by this you also understand the whole.

His soul did a beautiful Job of giving mankind the concept of time dimension. Didn't he open one of the gates to God. He is blessed I am sure.

There are two ways to find God, outside and inside. Both surprisingly leads to same truth.

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Eleanore
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posted October 12, 2004 11:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eleanore     Edit/Delete Message
Actually, Einstein wasn't an atheist. Many people believed he was because he explained his image of God in scientific terms. He found God through his equations and theories, perhaps not the "accepted" image of a kindly older man in white robes, but as a force that, to him, had the same kind of role. Energy, you know.

As for whether or not God/dess created evil ... well, yes and no. I don't think that Isaiah contradicts the moral of the story. For a simplistic example, let's take Satan as evil. In reality, God/dess did create Satan, who is no more than a fallen angel. So while the things that Satan does take him further and further from God/dess, he can never wholly escape his creator. God/dess, then, technically created evil. Freewill gives us the opportunity to choose whether to be close or far from God/dess. But no matter what, all our efforts, good or evil, will prove to be a part of God/dess' greater design since we are all his/her creation. You cannot escape your source. Try as you might, gnash your teeth, live in abject misery and hatred, eventually, you will return to the fold as the lost sheep you are. Remember, the easiest understanding of "evil" is that it is the illusion of separation, the veil upon our earth-bound eyes that fools us into thinking we are separate from God/dess, each other, ourS-elves. Individual, yes, but not separate.

------------------
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Ghandi

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Heart&Soul
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posted October 14, 2004 01:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart&Soul     Edit/Delete Message
Provoking sharings there, Randall,I and Eleanore

The Void is nothingness and All.
It is a difficult thing to forge our minds completely into this concept.

For then it seems we circle back to the question of what was before the Void? How was the Void created? We want tangible explanations for something completely intangible.

No thing was before the Void.....for the Void is All, just as it is no thing.
The Circle~~ Infinity.

Neutral.
Within and Without, just as you said, I.

And so we measure all forms of matter and non-matter from this zero-point, which we perceive as 'absence of', but this point is not really the absence of for it is the point of creation. Go back or forth in infinate directions of the Void and you will see absence and substance, this or that, but within it you will simply Be.

Just some thoughts anyway.
There are infinate questions.......and no end to the answers either.


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Heart--Shaped Cross
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posted October 14, 2004 03:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
I find this kind of sophistry particularly upsetting.

The problem of evil ought not to be reduced to a question of semantics. That's a cop-out, if ever there was one.


For argument's sake:

We might just as well ask:
"Does absence exist?"

If absence (as in "the absence of good") exists, then God is responsible for absence as well. God is equally responsible for what he does not do.


Oh, and, the teaching of christianity is not to judge by appearances; according to works. That is precisely the opposite of what Jesus taught. Salvation is by grace; - sin belongs to the flesh, which is dead; and faith is recognition of the spirit, the inward man, who is perfect, uncreated, without sin.

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iAmThat
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posted October 14, 2004 09:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
Hi H,

Very thought provoking question.

My 2 cents if I may. Sure there are spirits that are evil, in the sense, they have their own kingdom. Everyone has free will and they chose to be their own Kings or CEO of their world.

Everyone needs nourishment, some get nourished by light and others crave for darkness.

God intervenes when good people cry against the evil that is happening. God has a job to do. He has to consider each and everyones needs (good or evil). If you are unfaithful to him, he does not deny you. If you deny him he does not deny you. How can he deny himself.
(I think I am quoting Timothy or Corinthians)

When we enjoy he enjoys our happiness, when we cry he can feel too. We are all connected in a mysterious way. Imagine your own body. If you have a cut in your finger, you would tolerate it right. But if you know it will cause infection in rest of your body, wont you cut it off? (Consider this the cut finger will be recycled to earth, if you are thinking God lost its body


Nothing lasts forever good or evil (aeons after aeons), the only thing perfect in the whole of creation good or evil is that eternal source. Just like some of the astral dreamers here on this planets see their own body when they sleep. That eternal source during end of creation also can see himself/herself even when everything is reduced to tip of needle.
But even a tip is something right

There really is nothing called nothingness.
Think of it. A tarot card may have zero preceding one. But mathematically from 1 you can never reach zero. Because there always is some number after in the last decimal place. correct?.

Even in nature, I think its not possible to reach the temperature of absolute zero.
Absolute zero would mean there is no heat or no vibration. How does anyone know there is no vibration? Is our scientific instruments so advanced.
A black hole is not supposed to radiate any light, and now scientists say, a black hole may really not be so black.

We always make approximations to rationalize hence we invented zero; etc;


PEACE

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iAmThat
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posted October 14, 2004 10:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
Hi this is for everyone:

I forgot to Add, in all we do , we should not hurt others. If we do that we Sin. Sin is omission, an error. Does your right hand turn against its left hand? Same with God. We are all created in his image? Not his likeness? Theres a difference between the two.

The only reality in this world is suffering. We suffer because of our craving.
If you crave for temporal things your joy lasts temporal. If you crave for permanent joy. God would elevate you. Just ask for it and of course your deeds must be such in past. Won't you promote an employee in your company if his deeds are good?

So Buddha has taught the eight pathfold to end suffering. This is for beginners.
Someone would argue, they are not suffering. These people are short sighted. Won't they fall sick. Or get old. Isn't that suffering. Isn't death painful? Isn't that suffering? I know there are some who die in peace and lived a good life. There are a few of those people. But if these people were not spiritual, they would still be lost after they die? Being spiritual means you have a map with you. You know exactly where you are. I am sure reader would agree, that to have a map is better than not to have it? Especially in the complicated journey after death.

Today at this moment on earth I am a human being? In some other aeon I would have been Chiron(just an example)?

Imagine a play? Imagine it watching second time with different actors? Does not the audience still enjoy it?


Going back to the origin question of evil.
Everyone has a purpose? Does not the excreta of humans are recycled as manure for soil. If evil increases lets say too much sex, the population of earth would increase, this would mean we are consuming lots of food and depleting soil. Then earth would cry to God. God would send a virus like hiv.
God is a great balancer. He does a very balancing act.


Well I mish mashed lot of philosophies in this discussion. Thanks for bearing it. In the end its important I say this is what I believe.

PEACE

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juniperb
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posted October 14, 2004 10:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message
Hello IAT, you said:

"Especially in the complicated journey after death."

May I ask: why is the journey complicated?


------------------
If having a soul means being able to feel love and loyalty and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans. ~James Herriot

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Gia
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posted October 15, 2004 02:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gia     Edit/Delete Message
God creates potential. Now is that the same as creating good or bad, or would you say it was just potential?

"And God saw everything that he had made, and behold it was very good."

Gia

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Heart&Soul
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posted October 15, 2004 12:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart&Soul     Edit/Delete Message
I can understand your frustration, HSC

Does darkness exist without light?
Yes.....there is darkness without light.
But we SEE it as nothingness until light shines the difference.
But that doesn't mean that the darkness didn't exist without it, right? It was there all along.
It is merely a matter of measurement......that us humans use as a means for defining existence, for it is more logical for our Visual minds to do so. Light is just more obvious to our vision.

So can Evil exist without the presence of God/Light? I think what Einstein meant (if this story is true and he really said it)
to say is not that Evil cannot exist without God, but that Evil is the existence without God. It still has an existence. It is.
(powerful energy isn't it? Its presence is strongly felt when it is there).

MOre on Einstein.....Eleanor I have read the same as you~ that Einstein did believe in "God". He was a very spiritual person, in the sense that through his amazing discoveries and all the beautiful, perfect symmetry he saw in creation, he knew there was more then just 'accident' at work. But he simply never chose to define it in any specific religion. But yes, he was misinterpreted as Athiest, as people can be prone to lable anyone who doesn't have a defineable religious belief into this category. (not saying you are doing that, Iam I've heard the same of him from sources as well, so could see why you wrote that.) Here is a quote from Einstein: "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

I am the same. I believe there is "God" but I don't believe in defining it, but just personally feel more comfortable to leave that matter entirely open for exploration.
I grew up with no particular organized faith, so this is why it may be more comfortable for me, but at the same time I respect others who follow whatever religion that feels right to them. Everyone has their own individual journey, and if they can find their own truth and comfort there, then that is a wonderful thing.

When I first read this here on does evil exist, I thought of the quote of Gandhi, "The devils of the world are in our own hearts-- and that is where our battles must be fought".
It is a choice, I believe.
When we open ourselves to one, we close ourselves off to the other. We shut out the light.......we invite darkness or light.
But if it is to believed in ALL, then I personally believe that both do "exist". But we are the ones who create their existence from within us. By giving it form in our Hearts. God perhaps manifests potentiality and possibility everywhere the same.

If at one point in 'time', before the Big Bang, when there existed only God in its original neutral point....from this point came ALL. IT could be no other way. There is this potential matter of semantics in everything created. Perhaps creation was God's longing to be 'Seen'....to be 'known'.
From the evolutionary standpoint of our human minds at this moment.....categorizing, assimilating, dissecting difference is our most tangible way for now.
NOt to say as we evolve perhaps into more telepathic Beings that could all change.
who knows?

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iAmThat
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posted October 15, 2004 04:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
Even I don't have a organized faith. I believe in the supernatural and have faith that when I die I am accountable to someone.
Ofcouse Jesus is my role model and so is Buddha and Krishna.

Regarding Gandhis quote about battle fought in heart. I also remembered Jesus's battles when he got baptised.

I wonder if the scripture is really correct. Why would satan not come to him before and wait until he is 30.


I think he went to a lonely place and the question and answers were voices inside him. I don't think Satan appeared to him. Its an exagerration.

For example he would have said all right Jesus you are going to start a ministry now answer this question "People would ask you to jump from a tall structure to prove you are son of God. They would want as proof an an angel to come and catch you. How would you react?'

The good voice in him replied, so what if you are son of God. You will not tempt the Lord your God.

And the questions and answers go on.

Isn't it strange whenever we go thru a crisis, we do hear two voices within us.
The future depends on what decision you made in the past. Does everyone really hear the voice? Or am I insane.

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iAmThat
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posted October 16, 2004 12:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
Hi,

Interesting thread and I want to kindda summarize everything in this post.

I can only speak of evil in men. They are battles as Gandhi said one must fight within our heart.

Lets say you are a farmer and want to grow vegetables. Won't you throw some seeds.
Every seed has potential to become good plant. But some of them wither some take good form. The good form pleases the farmer.


There fore Men who were created in image of God has all potencies of God. Just like every seed of plant holds a plants attributes. So is this Man-spirit containing attributes of God. The most pure part of Man is the spirit. It never dies. It is always good. Because the source God is good and not evil. Isn't a child most healthy within a womb than outside. Same with us. Our spirit is pure and good as long it is in the heart of God, one with him. All men here on earth, are those seeds. God threw them in this kingdom, and everyone has a potency to be good.

We would grow from bud to flower out here.
Our soul is the soil in the example.
When we die, soul and body is recycled. Spirit is not. And enjoy everything created for Man in flesh. Until we are perfect we would keep on coming to this kingdom of soul taking garb of flesh and learning our lessons.

We would go thru trials and temptations in this life. How would one know they are strong unless they face an enemy.

The temptations are required because of the conditions God has set to determine if we are really perfect. Once we pass that test we return to him. (Any christians here remember Our Father, especially the line "do not lead us in to temptations but deliver us from evil", translated as "give us strength to fight our temptation and save us from the tempters flare")

You may ask why this rule? Please read my previos posts about, Man -spirit always existed just like other creations. There was never a time when Man-spirit and other creations didn't exist and there never will be such a time. The whole of creation are thoughts of God and the thoughts of God would never cease.

This universe is Manifested for us and in turn God is enjoying it thru us. I read Quran the other day that said when a man rocks a man the throne of God shakes in heaven. I was amazed.

So bottom line is aim to be good. Don't let your carnal self take your higher self. Pay heed to your brothers. Use resources such as water, air with care.



PEACE children of God. I am glad I am human today.

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iAmThat
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posted October 16, 2004 01:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
I also read one more word of wisdom which I would like to share in respect to "darkness , absence of light ". This was from Buddha.

He termed questions such as these as Circular question.

Whether you go this direction or other the truth is same.

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Heart&Soul
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posted October 16, 2004 02:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart&Soul     Edit/Delete Message
Hello once again, IamThat

Not much time to post at the moment, for I'm deliriously tired, but just wanted to say a few quick things:

1. I am glad you are human too.

2. hehe........no, I don't believe you are insane. I hear the voices too.
I once had a dream of a voice speaking to me....in the dream I was very aware it was God speaking to me, even though the voice I heard was my own.
Wish I had more energy to elaborate, for it was a very intensly profound dream to me.....what God said to me.
Anyway, the voices or thoughts correlate
with a strong feeling within of "knowing"
what I should do.......what is really best for my growth, even for all other urgings and temptations. AS I get older I find the knowing feeling is stronger and clearer. I know more often right away.....instead of the 'morning after' so to speak. *halo*

3. Your posts are a gift to read. Thanks.


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iAmThat
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posted October 16, 2004 08:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
Hi Heart and Soul,

Thanks for you kind comments. Now that you said you heard voices too I am contemplating as below. I may be right or wrong but would like to express it anyway:

I think there are two voices one is the voice of body-mind conflict (all right you may split this up , stomach cries for food thats a voice in itself, mind is a chatter box (the last food was tasty have one more round).

The third voice is that of the human-spirit that is one with God. Our pure incorruptible self. It witnesses our every actions and is a spectator.

You mind may be corrupted, you body might become overweight . But this pure spirit never becomes corrupted. It is a witness to all your actions.

The goal should be to always hear this witness amidst all the other noices

I remember Meili at this time and reflect on what he said that we should be silent and hear the voice of God. I do not know was he refferring to the word of the witness? I also thank Gia for the use of the word potential.

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sesame
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posted October 16, 2004 09:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sesame     Edit/Delete Message
Heart&Soul, a few things you said occured to me recently - well the atheist thing. I was at a get-together on Friday and a girl there said she didn't believe in God. I said "so, you're an atheist then?" She said, "No, I believe in something, just not God". This confused me as I thought the term seemed to describe her well, but I thinkg she didn't like being categorised. Apparantly geminis do that a bit, so we didn't hit it off to say the least

Also...

quote:
he knew there was more then just 'accident' at work.

One quote I love from Einstein is "God does not play dice". I always thought he was very spiritual and understood God quite well. I think he could've said the above to the lecturer, but taht his views would've changed as he was older. I believe Einstein in his later years would've said been like:

quote:
The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then God is evil".

"Yes, evil does exist. To say God is not evil is to deny the existence of God as ALL things. How could God be NOT something if he created all? I believe it is You who is blasphemous!" But then, that's me, putting words into Einstein's mouth. Bring on the Karma!

iAmThat, I agree with much of what you say, but think you have an edge on payback. Is God not just? Wouldn't you consider Her most forgiving and compassionate?

quote:
Being spiritual means you have a map with you.

I think the map you speak of is faith? To have the map or not shouldn't be the point. Life is really about living regardless of where you are going. I agree that God would be mighty pleased if you are happy, but if you are not, then maybe you're trying to tell the difference. This shouldn't be a bad thing...

Heaps of Love,
Dean.

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iAmThat
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posted October 16, 2004 10:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
Hi Dean,

Always feel nice to read your comments. You discern well. Apologize for my mistakes if any in my posts above. You have a good eye. Some of the things I wish to speak, is limited by my hands. It gets tired.


You mentioned being spiritual means having faith. I think I agree. That faith is that you are a spirit (not body, soul or even mind). Yes life is really about living. But can you live by bread alone?
Or by being a good father, a good husband a good boyfriend.

Also when you start witnessing things with that faith. Everything has a clarity to it, don't you feel? Suffering ends. Men would live longer.

Wish I could elaborate.

And you are perfectly right about we trying to differentiate if we are not happy? Theres a quote by Jesus that confirms what you have just said it goes somthing like..if during your course of living, you lost everything then turn to heaven. An everlasting peace awaits you.


LOVE and PEACE.

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iAmThat
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posted October 16, 2004 11:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
Hi Dean
I have to ask you. I read your meanings of life and there you mentioned you didn't believe in God. So why would the girls comment turn you off? Is it because she is undecisive?

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sesame
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posted October 17, 2004 07:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sesame     Edit/Delete Message
Howdy iAmThat!

First of all, I never really understood what my faith meant. I just always trusted that God would take care of everything for me. This was my faith. I think I've revised it recently to say since all is God, then I am apart of God, and therefore I am also in charge of EVERYTHING that happens in my life. I still never shake the feeling though that She helps out a LOT.

Yes, it would be a beautiful world if all people viewed God as a part of them, not apart from them.

When you think about it, in life we really have lost everything. We've lost the memories of who we were. Of where God is (or heaven for that matter). Of what it means to Love etc. So basically the statement you speak of really means "never stop looking at Heaven". If the peace is within, and you see Heaven continuously without, then it will be everlasting.

I do believe in God very much so. I just always kinda questioned how much He influenced me. I mean, I'd try to trick Her, or run away or whatever to see if He would still be there, and I'm pretty sure She never left. I was trying to find where you read that. Is this it "I use the word God to mean the Creator, the reason something arose from nothing"? I don't mean this as philosophy, but ultimately that is God - the thing that created all. Don't get me started on who created God. The reason we didn't get on is because she was in a bad mood. Also she was stressing how she didn't like being categorised, and that's all I was doing. I think her point is "she is", and mine was "she is an atheist". In the end, she just didn't like me and kept interupting ans speaking really loud etc. There are people like that. I completely understand. Some subject matters are sensitive to people.

Heaps of Love,
Dean.

------------------
I think, therefore I thank...

My numerology program based on "Star Signs" by Linda Goodman
Logically Magical Logic is Magically Logical Magic! (and vice versa!)

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iAmThat
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posted October 18, 2004 04:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for iAmThat     Edit/Delete Message
Hi Dean,

Hope you are at peace. You asked where I quoted it from. Well I interpreted

quote:

Luke 16:9 "I tell you, make friends for yourselves with dishonest wealth, so that when it fails, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings."


The dishonest wealth here means the illusive things on earth. Eternal dwelling is the Brahman (the all). Thats what I think.

I think we cannot know All. It is just not possible. It is only possible when we become the All , one with it. Thats the only moment it is possible. Only the All knows each one of us.

The girl in question being a human is also a part of All. She is just ignorant about it. I always resist to judge people lest i be judged.

We have two choices either become the sugar or be someone else and taste the Sugar.

Somepeople would like to taste the sugar. Some likes to be the sugar. Depends on each's preference. I guess I am born here because I wanted to taste the sugar.


Love and Peace.

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miss_apples
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posted October 19, 2004 12:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for miss_apples     Edit/Delete Message
I read a lot of books by Doreen Virtue and Neale Donald Walsch and it made perfect sense to me when both of them say that evil only exsists because we have let our egos create it. I think that all the spirits and beings that we call "evil" are just lost souls who dont understand why they are in the astral pain. I believe spirits experience emotions more intensely than we do so when they are angry they are REALLY angry and thats what causes them to do things that make us think that they are evil. Thats just my opinion.

By the way...Albert Einstien was Jewish wasnt he?

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Heart&Soul
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posted October 29, 2004 12:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart&Soul     Edit/Delete Message
Really strange, but about a week or so I replied here and since then it has disappeared. Maybe I'm just trippin'.

Well, basically, Iam, your post about the sugar made me think.....
be the sugar= give
taste the sugar = live

give=6
live=6

It seems to all return to Love in the end.
6 = Love (Venus)

And beyond that, idealogically, shouldn't it be a balance? Surely God would be pleased if we were happy (as Dean said) and 'tasting the sugar'... for we have been given a life here to experience joy. To deny ourSelves joy would be to deny the gift of life.

And wouldn't God be pleased that we were the sugar as well?
That such joy we have experienced spurred us onward to give such joy to others?

Surely, when you are aware that such Bliss truly can exist, there is no other feeling quite like giving AnOther such joy as well.

Evil...seems twofold in a sense (2+2+2=6........what is the missing ingredient that Evil lacks? I wait in hope for your conclusions )
Either, denying such a gift of joy to OurSelves or denying the gift of joy to another.
Evil can take and take and never give.
Evil can give and give and never take.

I know the last one seems implausible and out of place.....but REALLY think about it.......think about the ramifications to One's Spirit....and what that would do to a Soul.
What is done to One's Soul is what One carries onward to others.


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sesame
Moderator

Posts: 358
From: Brisbane, QLD, Oz
Registered: Nov 2003

posted October 29, 2004 01:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sesame     Edit/Delete Message
Yeah, it must've been another thread where you posted the give/live thing. I think Iam has used the sugar analogy somewhere else.

Dean.

ps. just so we know I didn't delete it

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Heart--Shaped Cross
Knowflake

Posts: 359
From: north of Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted October 29, 2004 07:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heart--Shaped Cross     Edit/Delete Message
Eleanor -

To answer your question,
Potential for evil is evil.
Only the inevitable is ever truly possible.

Everyone -

All this talk about free will....

I do not believe in free will,
nor does any serious mystic I have ever heard of.
All are anxious (if they are anxious for anything at all) to point out the seemingly abstract and mystical fact that the separateness of our individual egos is ultimately illusory.

They all spoke of a single, over-riding - i.e. divine, order, principle, or will,
by which we are all inescapably bound.

The only way to transcend one's place in the finite scheme of things, is to renounce the semblence of power (will) and separateness we appear to possess. In this way, we become one with the infinite; our personal will vanishes and there is only reality; what is; and it is good.

The most important part of Jesus' teaching is that we are not redeemed by our own efforts ("works"), but, that people are granted "grace" more or less randomly (i.e. according to the will of God; not man). Even the salvation I just mentioned cannot happen until we are prepared. But, when the sinner is ready, salvation appears.

In the words of the great philosopher, Spinoza:
"We are not blessed because we are good.
We are good because we are blessed."

Jesus asked "Can the devil cast out devils?"
And yet, we go on expecting the impossible; we expect (as Einstien put it) that the same mind, which created the problem, should be capable of solving it.

When Pilate asked,
"Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?",

Christ replied:

"Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin."

Now, if you think this is the comment of a man who taught freedom of the will, please, think again. Jesus was considered a heretic because he "outed" the Father as the source of all things - spirit AND flesh;
he reminded us that God is above all things; Alph AND Omega; Good AND Evil.

If anything is evil, then God is evil;
"If you would make the fruit evil, make the tree evil as well, for every tree is known by its fruit."

Likewise, a man is known by his actions. -
But this does not imply that he might have acted differently than he in fact did,
and should consequently be judged for not acting otherwise;
rather, it suggests that his action is an indivisible part of him, and could not have been any other way;
and, consequently, he should be forgiven.

And Job says, "I too could heap up words against you, if my soul were in your soul's stead...". Why does he not say "if I freely chose, as you do"? Because he knows that we make different choices, not on account of the self-same freedom, but, on account of the different roles we are destined to play, each as various members of the larger body of Christ.

In the Epistle to the Romans, Paul took great pains to explain his doctrine of "the inward man"; the incorruptible Christ, the archetypal ideal, in whom we have our true being. The only free choice is for this perfection. The imperfections of the flesh are not, he said, freely chosen. We receive them, just as we receive our strengths, and everything else, "from above". And, if I do what I would not do (that is, if I were in Christ - i.e. perfect), "it is no more I that does it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

Free will is a concept which serves to produce self-righteous physicians who only lift their fingers long enough to point them, and prescribe guilt-trips for their already-miserable patients.

Only when you are cleansed of your own weakness and ignorance, will you be able to reveal the weakness and ignorance of your neighbors...

But, if you cannot even recognize that your neighbor is weak and ignorant - if, instead, you rush to judge him/her, claiming it was their strength, which succumbed to temptation, and their wisdom, which gave way to folly, - how can you possibly hope to enlighten him/her?


Would you like to know what Eistein meant, when he said he believed in God?:

"Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect as well as the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper."
- Albert Einstein

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