posted November 18, 2004 08:50 PM         

1. Guilt.

We feel guilty in relation to things we've done or not done. Conversations with God says all Guilt is is an indication that you aren't being who you are. If you feel guilty about something, then you've learnt that you are a person that shouldn't do these things. And yet, if you try to explain this to someone, many people would not be able to stop feeling guilty. You can't control people's emotions. A case in point is freinds. You might understand something clearly, but a loved one asks for advice, which you try to give, but then they can't follow it for many of their own reasons. Mostly, they're not at that point yet. My philosophy is to state what you're goind to, and just hope they remember it when they are ready. The Teacher appearing when the Student is ready can be very much an analogy of thoughts. Or books, signs, etc. So when someone says they are guilty and there's nothing you can do to help them, then they are being selfish. I don't mean this as negative, but merely that they don't want help. They wish to experience guilt.

2. Shame.

Very similar to guilt. I personally don't really feel pride, and hence don't understand shame. I understand humiliation as a projection of others onto you, and I'm guessing shame is the same. My dad is a Leo, so I was always against pride. I think it's pointless. Ultimately, you are saying "I deem this thing worthy of attention and adoration" which is also selfish. You are saying that about you. Your desires projected on to a thing. When the thing is no longer holding your desires, you may feel shame or worthlessness on that thing. These are all projected.

3. Greivance.

Now this emotion is the most hardest to explain as all people deal with it seperately, but ultimately, this is also about selfishness. The trick is to understand that death does not exist, that life is eternal, and that life after bodily death is the most awesome thing you could experience. There is no pain, suffering, or problems regardless of your deeds during life. Even pain can be considered subjective. True Masters can detach themselves from their bodies so they don't feel. As humans, we definitely feel. So to lose a loved one, or thing, is also selfish. We miss them. We want them. For us. If you knew how happy they were, would you still want them back? If they were suffering in their last years, would you want them released? Is it about you, or them? Likewise, you can never really teach this to someone that's greiving. It's a personal process that takes time to heal. I guess my point is that if you don't feel greivance as much as another, do you take on their greivance because they can't shed it? You can't explain it, so all you can do, is help in their greiving, even if you realise that the entity has gone on to a better place.

Maybe I'm talking about love. Helping people through your own empathy regardless of how you feel. You can see what they feel and hence feel that. Now my question, do you think you attract people because they experience things that you might not, and hence, help broaden your experiences, or do you attract people because they help you experience your own experiences?

I truly hope I didn't offend anyone.

Heaps of Love,
Dean.

------------------
I think, therefore I thank...

posted November 20, 2004 06:11 AM         

You both have undertsood me exactly. I've been thinking about this a lot. I've never lost anyone really close to me myself, but I seem to understand how others feel through these things.

Enlik, yes, every emotion is personal. The fact that others sometimes seem to impose their feelings is OK. They are expressing their feelings. I was also thinking about crying. It's such a natural thing, and some people seem to say that you must cry in order to pass through the grievance. But really, this is very personal. Crying feels so good sometimes. I'm also thinking that maybe grievance is a form of respect. In membrance of those that passed. They would most likely see you grieving and feel a mixture of understanding and blessing for you to live your own life. If you weren't to grieve, things could be different. Thanks so much for your thoughts.

Thirteen, yes, but wrong is subjective. Just to clarify, maybe you mean Grievance is necessary to understand who you are? If you do the "right thing" in order to become who you want to be, then I guess grievance wouldn't be necessary? Now, you've touched on something else. If you do something right for yourself, but someone else is hurt, then I think it is still right for you. The other person will learn this in time. Even if they don't, you should always do what is right for you. I mean, how do you know what others want? Or need for that matter? Life is about experiencing and learning. Sometimes it seems hard to do what is right for the self when contemplating all the ways others may be affected. I hear ya.

Acknowledgement is everything. Awareness is key. It's funny actually, I feel like this thread is maybe very indicitive of me being a gemini - we teach that love is awareness, and learn that love is a feeling (Linda Goodman). You hit the nail. I mean, I think you shouldn't be guilty for feeling loss, or feel like grief is a bad thing, but you seem to understand this perfectly. We experience this things in order to understand our world. Your emotions as seperate entities tells me you are pretty aware. Amazing words.

posted November 21, 2004 12:50 AM         

A true enlightenend person would never grieve. That is a soul clothes itself with a body. Does its role on earth. And then departs. The body dies. The spirit remains. A wicked man, would feel pain during his death. The bible states that during end of times, when the day of the Lord comes, it will come blazing as a oven. But the same thing would bring healing and comfort to some souls. Whether you believe it or not, but I quoted it to make a point. I am not fundamentalist

Guilt is because of the polarity that our physical body is subject to. Its a battle we fight every day between good and evil in our heart. Guilt when it comes with repentance, sends the second Godhead (Holy spirit) to you. It comforts you, and its up to us to convert that small flame into a big flame. Many a times we lose the opportunity and that small flame dies and we repeat that guilt. Opportunity is given to everyone. Many a times we have to wait many lifes for that opportunity to come again.

Shame. Hmm. What is shame? Is nakedness a shame. The resulting humility is that what causes shame? Is watching animals having sex shameful for them or for the observer?
Its the former I would imagine.

posted November 21, 2004 02:32 AM         

I believe they are all natural emotions...and sometimes only projections, as you wrote Dean, as what One means to project isn't always how it is perceived by others. This is mostly true with pride.
As natural, they should be experienced, until, hopefully over time they are seen more clearly for what they really are.
I agree with Conversations with God saying "guilt is an indication that you aren't being who you are". (oh, I meant to answer you before~ yes, I have read Conv. with God, books 1-3...although it's been a while and most likely need a refresher).
Maybe we should take guilt as a warning signal or sign to realize this as it we are experiencing it. Hear that voice in our head, "hey you! You aren't being who you are!"
Sometimes I think we do want to experience guilt, as a kind of self-induced punishment to ourselves, as we have realized how we've wronged others or ourselves. I don't think this is selfish, necessarily. Could be the opposite, possibly. If it is remorse that truly moves us to deal with it that way.

I think guilt may be more self-induced than shame. Shame is more often a result of other's perceptions and projections. Although, of coure they are really both self-induced when it comes down to it, what I mean to say is that Shame is more of a result of how we are seeing ourselves through someone else's eyes...whereas guilt is more from our own.
Shame is a feeling of unworthiness in a sense. I loved you with my whole heart and you rejected me....now I feel shame for my feelings. I have a low-paying job and am unsuccessful, etc. Shame seems to come more from caring what other's think about us.
Is that selfish to care about what other's think of us? It is selfish if it becomes an obsession...if you allow yourself to be overcome with dwelling on only your own place in the grand scheme of things. But a slight sense of shame I don't believe is selfish, as long as it is only out of initial self-discovery that moves you to rise above it and become a wholer person for the experience.

Grievance. This is such a complex conception, with so many different stages and layers. Part of grieving is selfish indeed...but only for praising and cherishing what we have lost, so I cannot see that as truly selfish. For it is because of reverence that we feel that way.
If we are thinking, "this person was such a loving and kind person and meant so much to me...I will miss them so", we are recognizing and cherishing their Spirit.
We are really thinking of the loss of their light and not of ourselves.
But...that is only one part of the grieving process...I suppose maybe it becomes selfish when you cannot let them go....or pray for what is really best for their Soul's journey.

Maybe for all these emotions it's a balance...not letting it go too far into ourselves until it overpowers us. Like 13 wrote "I let them have their expression but I also communicate to them that they cannot control me."

posted November 21, 2004 09:04 PM         

Heart and Soul, I found this statement interesting "We are really thinking of the loss of their light and not of ourselves". I guess you're saying the light we see with human eyes, as obviously, their light will actually be brighter on a soul perspective once they leave the material plane. CWG sais that whenever you think of any souls that have left this plane, they will be with you instantly. It seems the more passionately you miss them, the more chance you have of seeing them again. In order that they can say bye or something - to help you out.

posted November 22, 2004 11:17 AM         

Well, I thought on how I didn't quite express clearly what I meant for it to mean...so I began writing of how I meant to say that, it is Love for them that moves us to mourn the loss of their light here in this world (as yes, it surely beams onwards everafter)...not only mourning for the loss of their Light with us...but for others as well...
but then...I thought of your words, and how it is still here with us always, regardless...and of how, even moved by Love, we think of ourselves...and are prone to not be able to understand clearly at such times that their Spirit is not in mourning as we are, but is joyous in being Free.

So, thanks for opening up the horizon a bit wider.

posted November 22, 2004 11:29 AM         

My sister in law is having a hard time getting over the loss of her best friend.
She was murdered just a few months ago by a stalking ex-boyfriend. It was a violent scene...a shot in the face, and her 8 year old son is who found her dying.
I imagine how much harder it would be for people who have lost others in such a terrible way, to get over their grief...for it's harder to say, "She is in a better place" (she was so young!) or that, "it was her time", when it seemed her time was stolen from her.
I imagine she feels alone in her grieving, as she might feel that others believe she should have let go by now. But...sometimes more time is needed to move through all of the emotions, when they are that more intense.

posted November 22, 2004 11:46 AM         

Shame is a lot like guilt yes however different because it deals with pride and of course can be very selfish, depending on how its dealt with.

Grief is selfish too but I dont think feeling grief in itself is wrong until it lingers and lingers. Like if a loved one dies, of course you are going to feel grief but some people grieve so hard that they end up destroying their lives and their other loved ones lives.

posted November 22, 2004 05:26 PM         

Miss Apples, you touched on something I feel indirectly. I mean, when people like to wallow in their own grief. You give support, and sometimes try to give advice, but ultimately it's up to them. That's why I was thinking that we can experience their grief through them. How do you prevent people from wallowing if they don't want to stop? By giving support, are you getting down to their level? This raises the quesion of "black holes" - people who don't want to be happy and just suck all your love and positivity endlessly. Of course, how you treat each peson is different, and hopefully you don't attract black holes. I think I've had a couple with varying degrees. You just can't help them, and in the end, may be worse off for the experience. But the experience itself could be beneficial.

posted November 23, 2004 08:09 AM         

Its very easy for me to say to your SIL to look at the small child of her friends and think about its future and live for those alive.

The point is we are made of thoughts. So the thoughts we think that make us really grow must be encouraged. You know what I mean. When Yeshua made wine from water, he thought of grapes and the process of converting that grape in to wine. Everythings thoughts

There is a eternal fountain of love pervading our whole universe. Little remorse is like washing a dirty clothe in water. We wash ourselves in this eternal fountain of love, every now and then

posted November 23, 2004 12:22 PM         

I think that if you feel like you are being selfish for feeling these feelings it will only make one feel worse.

posted November 23, 2004 11:16 PM         

I have some things to say, but I'd like to re-read the string again and work out my words first.

posted November 24, 2004 02:06 AM         

I think the word selfish gets a bad wrap. Being selfish isn't a bad thing. It is our primary job to take care of our Self. So to be selfish is only natural. A positive example of selfishness is forgiveness. Now, extreme selfishness is entirely a different thing. All things in moderation are okay. I believe this includes selfishness. Being completely selfless is not healthy by any means. A parent who constantly puts their child's every need above their own is teaching their child that the world revolves around them... that the parent is really not all that important. The most important person in the world is the child. A parent who is willing to put their needs first (or at least equal to the child) knows they are teaching their child (firstly) how to take care of his/herself, (secondly) the importance of self worth, and (thirdly) that Mom/Dad has vital needs too and we have to take that into consideration. A parent that doesn't take care of him/herself first is useless to their child. You need to be at your best to be there for your child.

Guilt and Shame. Personally, I find them both rather useless. They're masochistic. Beating yourself up with guilt and shame will never get you anywhere. It will only sink you further into depression ( I can only assume a depressed person is the person engrossed in guilt and shame). Guilt is the antonym of innocence. Shame, the antonym of glory. Much like fear is the antonym of love. You cannot live in glory if you feel shame. You cannot live in love if you feel fear.

Grievance... that's a tough one. Grievance is selfish. The person is hurting because they have lost someone important in their life, seemingly, to never see them again. People aren't sad the entity has passed on to a better place, but that the entity is no longer in their daily life. They are sad for their Self. I, personally, have felt grief very deeply in my life. My first experience with grief was when a very close friend of mine hung himself. I was 17. I still miss him terribly. When I first found out about his death, I can't even begin to describe the pain I felt within my soul. I didn't understand. How could it be? 20 year old people don't die. I was dumbfounded... blown away. I wanted him back. I didn't want him to be gone to a better place where I can't see him whenever I please. I even dialed his phone number several times and listened to it ring and ring.... Maybe, just maybe it was all untrue and he would answer the phone. Of course he never did. Next came anger. How could you hurt us this way? How could you... kill yourself?! I cursed him out loud. Do you see what you've done to your mother?! Eventually I came around. I knew why he did it all along. I just didn't want to accept that he had done it. I don't know that there is anything anyone else can do to help someone through their grief, aside from just listening.

posted November 25, 2004 05:03 PM         

Someone can try all they like to guilt-trip another person, but if the other person doesn't accept the guilt, they haven't been effectively guilt-tripped.