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Author
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Topic: Karma? hmmm....
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ghanima81
Knowflake Posts: 620
From: MAINE! :)
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted December 29, 2004 11:21 AM
 
So, I've been feeling this strange weight lately, one that my ignorance and feeling of being 'slighted' has wanted to blame on outside forces. All is contained within. This is something it has taken countless years to understand, although I truly believed the understanding was there already. Strange how pride can play such a part in our pahts to higher understanding! In my readings, and research of various subjects pertaining to the mind and the soul, and my actions reflections on the soul and therefore hunamity itself, I have always related very well to the Empress Card from the Major Arcana... One of cynicism and old age wisdom, a vision of civilisation that has seen it all before. The simple and the beautiful often pass by me without notice, although being near a 'new soul' can bring a different vision, a rememberance of what it was like to see a firefly dance playfully across the sky for the first time, and then I can see the beauty again. This experience is actually quite special in itself, it reopens my eyes to the things that should be 'seen', not merely cast aside. I have the optimism of a million smiling children, but the cynicism of a million bitter souls. I have often wondered why this was, how I could look at my glass as always half full, yet still, deep inside, know there is no glass at all... My most recent thought and discovery is that of Karma... a concept I thought of before, but not as deeply until now. In my understanding, it is a simple concept, " you get what you give ", but is it really that simple? Like that little dish at the gas station: ''Leave a Penny, Take a Penny''? Well, if it is that simple, why aren't we all doing it? Why can't we wrap our heads around such a novel and basic idea? It only seems logical that we would all prescribe to this idea, and the world would be a better place. Right? But try to explain this concept to some, and they will get very agitated and usually come up with the same old adage: (one that I often hear when trying to explain things astrologically, but that's another matter) ''I don't like that things are fated, I don't believe in fate. I have free will...'' And you do!! You have it in every second of every day, you always have a choice . It is what we do with these choices that will effect us. Karma is an action, an intentional effect we cause in the world around us. But it is not the end all and be all of existance.
"Some people misunderstand the concept of karma. They take the Buddha's doctrine of the law of causality to mean that all is predetermined, that there is nothing that the individual can do. This is a total misunderstanding. The very term karma or action is a term of active force, which indicates that future events are within your own hands. Since action is a phenomenon that is committed by a person, a living being, it is within your own hands whether or not you engage in action."
From His Holiness the Dalai Lama's book Path to Bliss Back to my recent revelation, and how it pertains to me at this point in time, I have a lot of Karma to pay for... if that makes any sense. Looking back on this life, I know I have intentionally caused a negative force in somebody elses life, I have put into motion an emotion or action that has caused suffering. As such, I have experienced the same kind of suffering back at me. Now, how did this all start? I'm thinking ''Which Came first, the chiken or the egg?'' theology here... was I born into this world with Karma to burn, or was mine a soul that had conspired and decieved, therefore my first negative experiences were echoes of that which I had done in previous lifetimes? Then to breed a feeling of ''you get what you give'', I took the conscious act of negaitve action out upon another, thus starting the cycle all over again? Why don't they tell us this in the womb? Or at least at toddler stage. Jeesh, it could really save some people some suffering... "Countless rebirths lie ahead, both good and bad. The effects of karma (actions) are inevitable, and in previous lifetimes we have accumulated negative karma which will inevitably have its fruition in this or future lives. Just as someone witnessed by police in a criminal act will eventually be caught and punished, so we too must face the consequences of faulty actions we have committed in the past, there is no way to be at ease; those actions are irreversible; we must eventually undergo their effects." His Holiness the Dalai Lama, from 'Kindness, Clarity and Insight' So now it's inevitable? Okay, so what to do with something that is 'inevitable'? I found this passage, and it is the most simply put, and makes the most sense to me:
Watch your thoughts, for they become words.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny. I understand that I should watch these things, that I should not act as a negative force to anyone/thing as it is good and pure in the first place, but also to not get things back threefold. But is that a reason to go about life being a good person? Is that not another selfish action? I could reflect on that for another million years, and it would all come back upon itself. Like infinity. All thoughts and actoins can be for good, come from real places, places with no self-interest or selfish motivation, but I'm sure they can be construed that way no matter what fuels these deeds in the first place. I guess this is just a rant of sorts, something I've been thinking about a lot. If anyone has struggled with similar ideas, any feedback or input would be greatly appreciated. Love, light, and peace  Ghani IP: Logged |
trillian
Moderator Posts: 2830
From: The Boundless
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted December 29, 2004 11:26 AM
What's so wrong with being selfish?It could be argued that all 'selfless' actions are still 'selfish.' Lexi the words and you will always find the word 'self' in both. 'Selfless' may appear to be 'less self,' but it does not negate self.  Positive and negative are necessary, and exist in all things to achieve the balance of life. A sweet little book that you might find insightful is Illusions by Richard Bach.  IP: Logged |
ghanima81
Knowflake Posts: 620
From: MAINE! :)
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted December 29, 2004 11:35 AM
Thanks Trillian. It's all perception, I think. In some people's quest for their higher-self, (there's that word again) it's almost as if 'self' is really all of civilisation included, so what to do? Delve inside, stay there and be only for oneself, or try to positively effect the rest of the world by being a better me? And how to balance that? Brain in overdrive today.... think I'll have a hot shower and try to find some peace with it for now. Ghani p.s. I'll try to find that book. IP: Logged |
Yin
Knowflake Posts: 823
From:
Registered: May 2004
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posted December 29, 2004 12:34 PM
Trillian, I remember arguing with my psychology teacher in 9th grade that everything can be considered a selfish act because it comes from self and it is done for the self in one way or another. Thank you for reminding me.
I SO want to hang out with you!!!  IP: Logged |
26taurus
Moderator Posts: 4066
From: the stars
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted December 29, 2004 06:26 PM
I think simply, that we'll never have it all figured out. And we arent supposed to. As long as we are being the best we can be, loving ourselves and others, we are doing okay. Be in constant awareness in the beauty surrounding you and be appreciative for everything you have, in every moment. The world changes when you do that. Of course we'll ponder these things, karma, cause and effect. But I believe you can transmute karma. Nothing - even karma - is set in stone. Karma is there for us to learn and become better people. If we learn the lesson before it even has to come back to us, it need not come back. That's what its there for - to learn, so if you were ahead of the game and caught it before it came back, all the better! Karma can be transmuted. At least that's what I'm learning and seeing. If you are being a kind person, you are doing alright. We are human though, and sometimes we trip up. That is okay, as long as we are aware of what we did and how we can do it better next time, we are cleared. And sometimes you only do the best you can - what you see to be the right thing to do - and others see it differently. You cant please 'em all. I try not judge others for that reason. You never know what's going on inside of them, you dont know why they make the decisions to do. I've also chosen to never again let anything anyone else does or says offend me. We really cant. It is our choice. So again, we can only do as we see fit for ourselves. We are the only ones that can make ourselves happy. Like Trillian said, "what's so wrong with being selfish?" Woo Hoo! Yes. That's exactly it. We must be. But not in the way that most people view selfishness. I was just reading more about this in a fab book. It is so true. It all starts with the Self.  Okay sorry. I'm rambling now.  quote:
Watch your thoughts, for they become words.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
Indeed. Synchronistically, I just read this in a book a few days ago and thought, "Yes, that is how to live. In awareness of self. It's then that everything else becomes clear." to all.
------------------
"We don't see things as they are...we see things as we are".
-Anais Nin IP: Logged |
sesame
Moderator Posts: 640
From: Brisbane, QLD, Oz
Registered: Nov 2003
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posted December 29, 2004 09:38 PM
Well, my view of Karma changes with the wind. After reading your words Ghani, I had a reenforced notion that we are conduits of energy. The one verse is energy right? Well, theis energy passes through us daily. It is our choice as to where we direct this energy. The paths you direct to determine the paths coming in. Now this transcends the self. This is light and energy at its purest form. Masters pour out and receive so much light that you can visibly see it in them. Hence the term transcendental or metaphysical - the underlying light transcends everything and is physically impossible to capture. It is also what gives enlightenment. To live a life of negative karma is to either understand that you are reaping what you've sowed before, or to sow now in order to reap later. You may sow, sow, reap, reap, etc. It all comes down to experience. What do you want to experience today? Concsiously choose that, then so be it. However, whatever you experience will still be this energy flowing through you like a conduit. Constantly passing through, towards the paths you create. The more negative paths, the more negative flows back. The question I always come back to is one of equilibrium - never negative nor positive. What happens then? Is this Mastery? In its essence, I am refering to laziness or mediocrity or being blasé. Indifference. Another question is how much light can you receive? Pure Bliss in its fundamental form flowing through you continually with no end in sight. So, would you project negativity to prevent this bliss? Or would you like to spend eternity in its warm embrace? Hence we have cycles. Once you've experience something, then you choose something else, forever changing. My point is karma is tha action you choose. If you don't choose something, you may still receive from past lives, or even future ones, but to constantly project positivity is to create positive paths back in the future. For all of Earth to do this would be to evoLve. We are still very much learning, but there is hope, and where there is hope, there is a way, or path.Heaps of Love,
Dean. IP: Logged |
iAmThat
Knowflake Posts: 518
From: Edison, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2004
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posted December 29, 2004 11:36 PM
My 2 cents based on what I have read so far: Human beings are the only beings that have both the divine and devilish nature in them. The divine is that that core of being called 'the pure spirit'. The devilish is the flesh, the cloth one wears. The senses. Only a handful are able to discern the difference. Some based on tough experiences on the journey of life. Why it is like that? I do not know. Its been such a long time, so who cares anyway. It could be an experiment gone bad, and theres someone kind out there who is looking out for us. A loving author. He/she transcends time and already knows the choices we have made in the future. Don't you sometimes get a feeling of Ah ha.... this is the right choice for me. Although my devlish self does not like it. But my divine self knows and sees the long term benefit. continued....
IP: Logged |
ghanima81
Knowflake Posts: 620
From: MAINE! :)
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted December 30, 2004 10:31 AM
Here's a little story I found the other day that touches upon the idea that you can change your 'destiny'. I've never really thought that destiny was a practical concept. I know that sometimes when I meet somebody that I swear I'm meant to meet, that rather than that meeting being predestined, that perhaps that person is known to me from lifetimes past... or other such things that seem that they were 'supposed to happen', have remnants of a past situation, that's why they materialized in this reality. There are certain situations that just seem too oddly farmiliar, you know?
In a time long past, there was an old monk who, through diligent practice, had attained a certain degree of spiritual penetration.
He had a young novice who was about eight years old. One day the monk looked at the boy's face and saw there that he would die within the next few months. Saddened by this, he told the boy to take a long holiday and go and visit his parents. 'Take your time,' said the monk. 'Don't hurry back.' For he felt the boy should be with his family when he died.
Three months later, to his astonishment, the monk saw the boy walking back up the mountain. When he arrived he looked intently at his face and saw that they boy would now live to a ripe old age.
'Tell me everything that happened while you were away,' said the monk. So the boy started to tell of his journey down from the mountain. He told of villages and towns he passed through, of rivers forded and mountains climbed.
Then he told how one day he came upon a stream in flood. He noticed, as he tried to pick his way across the flowing stream, that a colony of ants had become trapped on a small island formed by the flooding stream. Moved by compassion for these poor creatures, he took a branch of a tree and laid it across one flow of the stream until it touched the little island. As the ants made their way across, the boy held the branch steady, until he was sure all the ants had escaped to dry land. Then he went on his way. 'So,' thought the old monk to himself, 'that is why the gods have lengthened his days.'
So causing positive action can undo what is 'destined'? Another spiralling quandry... Ghani IP: Logged |
iAmThat
Knowflake Posts: 518
From: Edison, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2004
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posted December 30, 2004 11:32 AM
Ghani, That was a moving story indeed. The thing I noticed here is the boy in the story didn't know he would die. It tells nothing about it. It is quite possible the Boy would have come to know about his death and he took a penance and asked to live longer. Everyone can ask. It is up to the that loving person I told you about to give. It is very rare that he interferes, but he does sometimes. "May your will be done not mine" - Yeshua If Jesus was saved by the Father. Too many people including me would have not got or on way to salvation. A mere mention of his name alone, brings salvation. Thats the effect he had on so many people. Was only trying to make a point there. Don't have to agree with me IP: Logged |
26taurus
Moderator Posts: 4066
From: the stars
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted December 31, 2004 02:29 PM
Great story Ghani. Indeed, we have the power to change and create our destinies.Happy New Year.  IP: Logged |
Philbird
Knowflake Posts: 1557
From: Douglas, AZ. USA
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted January 03, 2005 12:15 AM
All so interesting!
Very simply, I believe in this lifetime I have paid much Karmic debt! I believe I was a very horrible person in a former lifetime. At this point of my life, I understand why I have experienced what I have experienced. Throught this lifetime and am glad I have never "hurt" a soul. I seek who I am, and try to help myself in preperation for the next lifetime.IP: Logged |
iAmThat
Knowflake Posts: 518
From: Edison, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2004
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posted January 03, 2005 02:05 AM
Phil- I am glad you liked everyones viewpoint. I guess, even in this discussion ego comes up which I think lot of people commented on in earlier thread. When the universe was created, the breadth of God was in all things, it left us and left our ego behind. The goal is to make that ego sublime. Some one was mentioning about sexual desire and its relationship to ego/seperation.
Sex is good starting point. It prepares one to love the real eternal father whose throne is up there somewhere. Girlfriend/boyfriend first and then love for Him
Therefore in Hinduism the life of a man is divided into various phases childhood, student, breadearner, marriage and finally give up all and take up sanyas (renunciation) The divine knowledge is trapped within each soul waiting to be untapped. Each human has the potential to realize it. Also its not given (not NOW atleast) that when man finds out about his divinity he publishes that information on the internet for everyone and explains what it means. (Remember how Jesus explained to his disciples the mysteries in plain english and when the public asked he spoke in parables) Each one has to lamp the light in his/her own soul. God only helps if we help ourselves first.
-- Well that was IMO
IP: Logged |
26taurus
Moderator Posts: 4066
From: the stars
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted January 03, 2005 03:49 PM
Hi Phil! I've missed you. I think the same things sometimes.IAT, I agree. You are very wise. IP: Logged |
iAmThat
Knowflake Posts: 518
From: Edison, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2004
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posted January 03, 2005 04:35 PM
Thanks 26T...I really owe some, to the wonderful people that I find here. May be a time is coming or has already come for knowledge to increase and share with all...IP: Logged |
trillian
Moderator Posts: 2830
From: The Boundless
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted January 04, 2005 09:47 AM
Because it is my nature to stir pots... quote:
God only helps if we help ourselves first
While this has become a Western platitude,
is this necessarily true? Do those who suffer not help themselves enough? What is the measurement of helping one's self enough, to be worthy of God's help? The above quote is not found in the Bible, though it's largely attributed to being so. Its original source is unknown, but one scholar traced it back to Aesop in his fable about Hercules: "Do not pray to me for help until you have done your best to help yourself; otherwise, your prayer will be in vain." IP: Logged |
sesame
Moderator Posts: 640
From: Brisbane, QLD, Oz
Registered: Nov 2003
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posted January 04, 2005 09:15 PM
Wow, that's interesting Trillian, thanks!I think it might work because by helping yourself, the God in you is helping. Sometimes people put "too" much faith in God. It might seem like there's no such thing as too much here, but you can't exactly excpect God to pick you up and make you move to get that job etc. Or is it? I have faith that everything will work out, but I'm starting to learn that God is maybe trying to tell me I have to work out as well. I mean, obesity or laziness can lead to problems. Sure, God could heal you, but you have to believe that more than we think we do. Who's to say that what you feel external, is being trasnmitted from your deepest core? So, I mean, I think you should also act in order to be helped. Even pretend you are healed in order to have God make that scenario a fact. Easier said than done, but really, anyone can pretend they're healing. , Dean. IP: Logged |
iAmThat
Knowflake Posts: 518
From: Edison, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2004
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posted January 04, 2005 10:51 PM
Nice thoughts...
Trill, isn't that last statement true in the example of an alcoholic person. I am pondering over your question and following comes to my mind. Unless he really makes an effort from his deep self(as Dean mentioned), he would continue to be same.
Didn't Ghani(LL) quoted Gandhi as saying 'to see the change. be the change'. (BTW I haven't read Gandhiji's autobiography. But he does seem to be a great soul. Althought I do know bits about his life story.) I am inclined to draw parellism here as the statement above and the last statement seem to imply the same truth.
Well that was Philosophical(my definition of philosophy is the process of realizing the truth that one already knew before their birth).
Trill, I believe what you said may not hold true, during the ending of times as per Yeshua. He speaks in parable of a wedding feast and how some of the guests are forced to attend the wedding feast. Now there so many wedding parables, I do not know which one. The answer lies in that parable I believe. IP: Logged |
trillian
Moderator Posts: 2830
From: The Boundless
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted January 05, 2005 09:19 AM
I am not arguing in favor of not helping yourself.I am saying that one can not measure how much helping of one's self is necessary to gain God/dess's favor. Two women with cancer. One is cured, one is not. Regardless of the circumstances involved in their treatment, both prayed and worked hard to overcome their illnesses.
How does one measure whether one worked harder to gain God/dess's favor? Further, the cured one has no family, no children, and runs a business ruthlessly, with no regard for those around her. The woman who died left behind a loving family who will feel crippled with out her. If you want a tablespoon, you need three teaspoons. If you want a quart, you need four cups. If you want a foot, you need twelve inches. These things you can measure. IamThat, exactly what did I say that would not hold true at the end of days? I don't believe I made any definitive statements in my post regarding God/dess's help...rather, I posed questions, contemplations. The only definitive statement I made is that the quote is not found in the bible. I absolutely believe you must help yourself...because you can not measure what it takes to be 'helped by God/dess.' You may never be helped in the manner in which you might believe you desire or deserve...so why sit around and wait? IP: Logged |
trillian
Moderator Posts: 2830
From: The Boundless
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted January 05, 2005 09:40 AM
btw, it occurs to me that to argue karma for the example of two women, negates asking for God/dess's help. Both women wanted to live, and believed they had much to live for. Was it karma that prevented one of the women from living? Then asking for God/dess's help to fulfill one's desire to live in this time/space is and was in vain. Was it karma that allowed a woman, who might seem less worthy, to have her desires fulfilled? Or did she just pray and manifest harder than the other woman? I have no answers to these questions. None of us do. That's my only point. We live, we love, we laugh, we cry. We try to explain things we don't understand.
We accept answers that make us comfortable or comforted. But I am prepared to accept that everything I think I know or believe...is wrong. IP: Logged |
Yin
Knowflake Posts: 823
From:
Registered: May 2004
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posted January 05, 2005 12:45 PM
Trill, your last sentence struck me. Here is something:
quote:
Everything in this book may be wrong.
says Richard Bach at the end of his book "Illusions" after going on and on about the meaning of life and other stuff  IP: Logged |
iAmThat
Knowflake Posts: 518
From: Edison, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2004
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posted January 05, 2005 01:05 PM
quote:
exactly what did I say that would not hold true at the end of days?
I assumed you didn't agree. But you did add clarity later on. I now understand your question better. Never mind. Truth is infinite. Some is trapped within each and when enlightened, this person sees things as it is not as he/she is made of. When you ask this type of person, I believe you will know whatever you needed to know. It is the reason why we go in search of Guru. Some believe its tough to get self-enlightened unless they have grace of God. Others, are initiated by someone filled with Light. I personally haven't met anyone, except two person for few days, last year. One was indirect and the other direct. My journey is on. So far it was a smooth ride. Wonder what future holds. But I won't let the future affect my present. This I know as the absolute truth. Your hypothetical question is good. I am not sure if you will be interested in my response. But I will shortly anyway
As Dean put it nicely, we are all like kids playing on beach, and explaining things / learning from each other. IP: Logged |
trillian
Moderator Posts: 2830
From: The Boundless
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted January 05, 2005 01:31 PM
Yin Yup, that's why I recommend that book so often. It's like a little wake-me-up...just when you're feeling lulled into comfort/complacency, there's that little kick in the teeth called Life. IAT, with no offense intended: quote:
This I know as the absolute truth
The more I go through this life-journey, the more I see that truth is subjective. The closest things I have seen to 'absolute' truths are relatively benign. Living organisms breathe air--that seems to be an absolute truth. As far as Life, The Universe and Everything (thanks, D. Adams), I have seen little that I would subscribe to as absolute truth. But I remain open to the possibilities. Yin and Yang. Positive and Negative. Light and Dark. We embrace the light because it makes us feel better, believing that the light leads us to become higher beings. Perhaps to reach this ellusive stage of 'enlightenment,' we must embrace both the light and the dark. As one writer put it, to reach the highest state of being, one must not only be enlightened, but also endarkened. Of course I am interested in your response to whatever hypothetical question of mine it is to which you refer. I may not agree with it, but we may not be here to agree. So be it. IP: Logged |
iAmThat
Knowflake Posts: 518
From: Edison, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2004
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posted January 05, 2005 02:18 PM
Yikes...By 'this' I only meant, the last statement i.e of future/present.You are right others are subjective as you rightly said Now thinking even about that last statement. Time is eternal NOW, so my last statement was an absolute truth for us earthlings
IP: Logged |
iAmThat
Knowflake Posts: 518
From: Edison, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2004
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posted January 05, 2005 09:41 PM
I am back and nothing to do for the moment. So am preparing for my blabber Trill: Heres what I bumped into describing the enlightment journey of the Magi. I also have a question. You mentioned that the statement "God only helps those who helps themselved" is not in the Bible. Do you believe in the Bible? If yes (which I believe to be the case) then it does not mean that just because it was not said, its not true.
Also because it is said, it may not be true also. Things would have got lost in the translation. If you do not believe in the Bible then please ignore my comments from them. Now regarding the two woman in your story. kindly read the poem and let me know your thoughts. Would you still believe that being alive and cured is more good in the eyes of God? If I was in the womans shoes, I would have chosen to die. As did the Magi's when they returned back home after seeing baby Jesus. I would not like to comment on the nature of the surviving woman as I would be sinning against her Regarding the story of the woman who left survivors. Did you read story from a Russian author called Tolstoy. I am not sure, if thats the author. It is a story about a fallen angel. Who falls because he does not allow God to take life of a childs Mom. Its very beautiful. I believe that story would answer your question. Good or bad. Positive or Negative would love to hear from you and others. Poem follows :
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000598.html IP: Logged |
tross
Knowflake Posts: 14
From: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Registered: Nov 2004
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posted January 06, 2005 07:38 AM
I've recently done a lot of work on paying karmic debts by healing past lives. I was bedridden for more than a year and lost nearly everything I had. I'm only now starting to get my life back together.Some good explanations and simple-to-follow exercises can be found at:
http://www.healpastlives.com/pastlf/exercise/extrobsp.htm and the excellent Karmic dictionary:
http://www.healpastlives.com/pastlf/karmdict/indxdict.htm Hope this helps someone as much as it helped me. Tim IP: Logged | |
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