posted July 18, 2006 08:15 AM         

Wow Fayte! So much stuff written by other people about religion, some funny, some sarcastic, but seems all giving a shadow of negativity on the topic... And do we have to go through again some Peoples scary expressions re: jews (Hitler for example) knowing that they were in fact of ill health pshycologically?? - scary stuff ,,,,

The main point is, most probably, in this discussion: so, WHAT is that Religion ( and I think of it as a more organised material), and HOW it is compared to SPIRITUALITY?

again, many religious men , i mean more spiritual in a sense, were Christian. And Some were Catholics, and some were Sufists, and some Muslims,some Kabbalist , some even were Scientologists or even Atheists/Gnostics?Agnostics etc.. At the end of the day the question remains : Is it important how you label yourself, atheist or religious,spiritual or god - knows-what-that-means-Agnostic )) unless you stay HUMANitarian??? And should you label yourself at all?

Believing in Soul doesnot make you less intelligent, so believing in God or being spiritual DOESNOT make you less wise than atheist. Or does it, according to Seneca, assimov etc.. I feel, and it is only my opinion )being religious or spiritual gives you more self-esteem, understaing of free will, learning of yourself and others, love...

posted July 18, 2006 03:50 PM         

quote:

---

sounds familiar ........

---

Elaborate?

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted July 18, 2006 06:51 PM         

In a letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Jefferson described his views on Jesus and the Christian religion, as well as his own religious beliefs. He appended to this description a Syllabus that compared the teachings of Jesus to those of the earlier Greek and Roman philosophers, and to the religion of the Jews of Jesus' time. This letter and the appended Syllabus are interesting to anyone studying the Jefferson Bible because they explain precisely Jefferson's views which later led him to make the compilation of the moral philosophy of Jesus in the form presented on this website. Both the letter and the Syllabus are presented below, and may be found in the Memorial Edition of Jefferson's Writings, Vol. 10, pg. 379. Following the syllabus is a letter to William Short, which contains further discussion of the syllabus. This letter is found in Vol. 11 of the Memorial Edition, pg. 243.

Letter To Dr. Benjamin Rush.
Washington, April 21, 1803.

DEAR SIR,
In some of the delightful conversations with you in the evenings of 1798-99, and which served as an anodyne to the afflictions of the crisis through which our country was then laboring, the Christian religion was sometimes our topic; and I then promised you that one day or other I would give you my views of it. They are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed, but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others, ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other. At the short interval since these conversations, when I could justifiably abstract my mind from public affairs, the subject has been under my contemplation. But the more I considered it, the more it expanded beyond the measure of either my time or information. In the moment of my late departure from Monticello, I received from Dr. Priestley his little treatise of "Socrates and Jesus Compared." This being a section of the general view I had taken of the field, it became a subject of reflection while on the road and unoccupied otherwise. The result was, to arrange in my mind a syllabus or outline of such an estimate of the comparative merits of Christianity as I wished to see executed by someone of more leisure and information for the task than myself. This I now send you as the only discharge of my promise I can probably ever execute. And in confiding it to you, I know it will not be exposed to the malignant perversions of those who make every word from me a text for new misrepresentations and calumnies. I am moreover averse to the communication of my religious tenets to the public, because it would countenance the presumption of those who have endeavored to draw them before that tribunal, and to seduce public opinion to erect itself into that inquisition over the rights of conscience which the laws have so justly proscribed. It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others; or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own. It behooves him, too, in his own case, to give no example of concession, betraying the common right of independent opinion, by answering questions of faith which the laws have left between God and himself. Accept my affectionate salutations.

Th: Jefferson
http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/jeffbsyl.html

Unbeliever ??

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted July 19, 2006 12:14 AM         

*******

2 Corinthians 11 (New International Version)

Paul Boasts About His Sufferings

Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham's descendants? So am I. 23Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?

In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. 33But I was lowered in a basket from a window in the wall and slipped through his hands.

*******

posted July 19, 2006 07:35 AM         

Fayte, thank you Very much on complimenting me on my achievement, actually to be honest with you my desire to write nicely usually equals in good result, straight proportionally I mean I was, perhaps lazy or may be not conscious enough to make enough effort that time ¦m sorry!

¦m that Elena I know your opinion, although confused, just becuase i know it, feels strange to read so much of others opinion ) My question was more rhetorical realy, dear Fayte ))))

As to my points on intelligence and spirituality, I can give some insight on one person, who is not Buddhist or New Age, but someone rather not known, though close to my home and traditions (just discovered him to my own embarrassment!!!!)

St Sergey Radonezski was one of the profound Christians our time, and the most influential healer, saint, spiritual leader in Russia last century. Born with natural aristocratic character, which is now commonly called intelligence (not intellect, pls note), Sergey lived many years in monastery in study of elders.

His intelligence restrained him from becoming ascetic, fanatical or religiously biased person... during strict scholarship, he surrendered his fight with himself (what is commonly known by - conflict with others or the world), totally surrendered to the elder monastery teacher only to discovere himself in himself!!!! ) Lotus if reading, his OverSoul, could it be it? ))))

His continuous spiritual work during many wars in Russia as counsellor ( Kulikov fight for example), healing personal work and trance work ( for example Nicholas Tsar took personal consultations from him, with well know prediction of Tzar death)....

posted July 19, 2006 03:43 PM         

complaining or boasting...

boasting or complaining...

I leave that one for the Theologians and folks who see a monster under every bibical bed.

What I do understand in those verses is a discernment between Saul of Tarsus and Paul the Apostle.

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted July 19, 2006 09:37 PM         

quote:

---

I am moreover averse to the communication of my religious tenets to the public, because it would countenance the presumption of those who have endeavored to draw them before that tribunal, and to seduce public opinion to erect itself into that inquistion over the rights of conscience which the laws have so justly proscribed.

---

I think this particular quote is so crucial to any hope of understanding Jefferson.

A deep distrust of tyrants in any form - organized religion being a common enough enough culprit and therefore a common enough victim of his verbal bashing - was essential to his character. That, combined with a life-long overwhelming, almost debilitating, sense of privacy and emotional restraint in the public domain has led to a bit of confusion regarding his spiritual beliefs. And it's easy to see why. On the one hand, we have a man more than willing to dress down the bullying church and and yet generally unwilling to share his personal spiritual beliefs with the public.