posted September 06, 2006 04:50 PM         

Does one really come back as an animal, or a tree or perhaps another human being?

Does a soul have an essense predetermined at the time of creation? And it only changes forms from birth to birth? Can the Nirvana be described as going back to our original essense?

I will post some quotes from Buddha on this topic.

I googled and came up with the story of this chap : http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9601/little_buddha/

He must be now in his teens. Where is he?

Its tough to discuss this without Karma and Free will, but lets see what we manage to come up with. Lets discuss the pros and the cons.

posted September 06, 2006 05:16 PM         

I do believe in reincarnation to a degree. I believe we come back as many times as is necessary to learn karmic lessons and raise our soul's level by learning more in each lifetime - BUT I personally do not believe we swap species i.e come back as a dog next time or whatever.
As for that article - I find that really disconcerting - maybe it's just from a mother's perspective though, even if someone told me my daughter was Joan of Arc reincarnated I wouldn't let her go live with Nuns in France unless I could stay with her! That just bothers me at some level
When I was about 11 I had a very wierd experience at Stratford Upon Avon where Shakespeare was born - don't worry I'm not going to say I'm Shakespeare reincarnated - when I was walking around the town with my family my dad, ever the avid amateur photographer spotted a snap op, he got us all to line up next to this huge cannon that was like a couple of hundred years old, with camera lined up he told us to move in closer and when we did I put my hand on the cannon near where u would light the fuse and all of a sudden I felt like I was transported to this other world - everyone around was in old fashioned clothing (medieval) and I was in a soldier outfit with the navy blue top coat and red sash and a sword and tall hat, the whole thing lasted a few seconds but started me on the road to spirituality and questioning the solid world, and maybe it's connected or not but as an adult I noticed I have this habit of absent mindedly tucking my left hand into the right side of my jacket, a position which I've noticed soldiers did back, at least what I've seen in old paintings

I digress into rambling - sorry

I think we do have a pre-determined agenda in terms of learning soul lessons which changes each time we return - and IMO I think it's linked to the astrological circle in some way.
Nirvana and the orignal essence - I think the Nirvana is the end of the road all tests passed and here's your spiritual degree so to speak - after that I think we can choose to come back to help others attain Nirvana, in particular our twin souls

posted September 06, 2006 08:42 PM           

I don't personally believe in reincarnation as I think every soul is completely unique, one of kind, and never been here done that.

I would hate to think that some innocent baby just born was carrying around Hitler's karma and having to pay for what he did. Or for that matter that anyone is having to pay the dues of anyone in a past life.

Besides that I believe in the doctrine of forgiveness. If we are able to be instantly forgiven for our deeds, no matter how bad they are, by having a contrite heart and sincerely asking God for forgiveness, then we have no bad karma to work out. Once forgiven the slate is clean.

Reincarnation in it's nature is contrary to forgiveness. We are not forgiven our deeds if we have to keep coming back and working out our bad karma.

For that reason if anything reincarnation would be my idea of hell. Because I do not believe we have to be perfect or that spirituality is even about being perfect.

If reincarnation was true and has been true since the beginning of time, then why is the world and people seemingly becoming worse instead of better? Wouldn't that indicate that if reincarnation was true we aren't ever going to get it right and perfect no matter how many times we come back?

posted September 06, 2006 09:04 PM         

more mentions of Reincarnation in the Bible...

Jeremiah 1:4–5
The 'Word' came to Jeremiah, and said "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." This verse has been used by Traditional Christians as evidence that God has foreknowledge of persons and events — that is not limited by time and space. Christians who believe in reincarnation may see this verse as evidence ability to "know" a person throughout a variety of reincarnated lifetimes.

[edit]
Elijah became John the Baptist
Jewish priests were sent to ask John the Baptist, "Art thou Elijah?" (John, 1:21), which is seen as supporting the conception that Jewish priests believed in the theory of reincarnation. Christ said of John the Baptist "this is Elijah." (Matthew 11:14.) Later on, upon the Mount of Transfiguration, the Christ said, "Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed… Then the disciples understood that He spake unto them of John the Baptist." (Matthew 17:12,13). This idea of reincanation is perhaps a little different from the commonly viewed notion of what reincarnation means. In the second chapter of II Kings, Elijah does not die, but rather is called up into heaven while yet alive. Mainstream Christian opinion would interpret these passages as referring to the role that John played in the spiritual life of first-century Jews, rather than his personal identity being that of Elijah.

Actually, those passages refer not only to the 'role' that John played but also to the 'office', assignment, or the commission that he was given by God. In this regard, John was to serve the same purpose that Elijah served. Just as Elijah was considered instrumental in serving as a guide to lead the Israelites back to the worship that God required of his covenant people under the Law of Moses, so John was to act in a similar capacity, leading the first-century Jews to the Messiah. In this way John 'was' Elijah, as mentioned in Matthew's account of Jesus' statement at Matthew 11:14.

[edit]
Matthew 11:14

posted September 09, 2006 03:35 AM         

>>>cat71:
Well you do write beautifully, better than Shakespeare
Wow, it must be some experience for you at the Stratford Upon Avon.
When I went to see the stonehenge a while ago, our tour guide mentioned something similar happens to people when they touch the henge at the entrance. Nothing happened to me perhaps my soul does not require those reaffirmations.

As I roamed the streets of London I was quite excited because it is the oldest city in the world and still thrives. I know you guys will have plenty of ghost stories which I wud love to read someday.

>>>Fayte:

Buddha is born...that is cool. I thought he wud never return from the state of nirvana. Some one mentioned once that he is born as Patel. That does sound an indian name.

>>>Charlotte,

Those were great quotes from the bible. Jews still keep a wine glass at one of their festival because they believe that
Elisha will return back someday. Going back to the the new testament of bible, Some priests use the below quote to deny reincarnation:

quote:

---

Luke 16 -
19 "There was a rich man who dressed in purple garments and fine linen and dined sumptuously each day.
20 And lying at his door was a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores,
21 who would gladly have eaten his fill of the scraps that fell from the rich man's table. Dogs even used to come and lick his sores.
22 When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried,
23 and from the netherworld, 14 where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
24 And he cried out, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.'
25 Abraham replied, 'My child, remember that you received what was good during your lifetime while Lazarus likewise received what was bad; but now he is comforted here, whereas you are tormented.
26 Moreover, between us and you a great chasm is established to prevent anyone from crossing who might wish to go from our side to yours or from your side to ours.'
27 He said, 'Then I beg you, father, send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they too come to this place of torment.'
29 But Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.'
30 He said, 'Oh no, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31 Then Abraham said, 'If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.'"

---

The belief in Jews during those days were that souls temporarily go to a limbo place after death. The tibetan buddhist monks believes the same, and that 49 days passes before reincarnation.

The most important message in that Luke narrative is that we must repent over our actions before its too late.

The above is not a parable because Jesus names Abraham in the story. Even if it is,
parables told by Jesus were true-to-life and not fantasy stories.
There is always an ultimate point to be gleaned by the them.

Same arguments applies to John the baptist-Elisha. I suppose, People do comeback.

John-The baptist is supposed to be the voice that comes before the Messiah.
Should we not clean our heart before receiving God's words.
Once again our creator is telling us a beautiful story thru real-events. Beautiful.

>>>Mirandee,

Yes, it is disconcerting too. But I really would have loved to go to the bottom of the story and find out more details about the Mom first.
Regarding forgiveness, I truly love Christianity for that reason. My mom wud always say "You have confessed with a true heart, and God has forgiven you." I really love it when she says it that way every time I err.

=====================
Going back to the post.

If one reads Genesis, it appears that God first created animals and later humans. Is it a story of various bodies of a sentient(animals/humans/plants/creatures of God)? Humans being higher than animal? "In the beginning was the word and the word was God......." Did God thought about that continuously (sequentially ) or in parallel?

In Geeta, Krishna talks about a human being achieving a form based on last minute thoughts. For example if we are lazy, its possible to reincarnate as a bear, because thats the principle of bear. Some hindus extends this concept to say that whatever we think at the last minute, we become that. Therefore they say its important to die peacefully and think of God at the last minute.

There are some modern believers who says the soul essence of everyone is same that is humans, animals, plants etc...are all equal because they didn't have any essence originally. Humans are humans after myriad or reincarnations from plants to animals (acually a much much long chain). Some believers discard regression that is human cannot become animal again.

Science says the smallest unit of time is 10^-43 ...thats like 0.0000.........000001 sec. Thats why the buddhists used to say that during deep meditation, they cud see that consciousness is a series of conscious moments and not a continuum of awareness. An exercise for us: If we are aware of our thoughts, doesn't it come one after the other as a sequence? Geminis, excluded from the test

Based on our state of mind, these thoughts collects together and we label them as Joy. But being momentary in nature we are soon sad because the joy did not last long. Its careful to get that last point. It also explains our depression we feel most of our lives.

Since everything is with God and starts with God, perhaps, all these conscious moments materializes thru us and we based on our body, mind, spirit we process it and therefore filter it based on our mind-state.

posted September 09, 2006 03:23 PM         

Silverstone

------------------
The only other sound's the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

posted November 05, 2006 11:36 AM         

2 1/2 years old kid, hear him on Tabla! Could this be some reason to believe in reincarnation? Or should we be asahmed of ourselves for using speck of the Great Brain?

posted November 05, 2006 05:39 PM         

The flaw in your argument is the assumption that any life is punishment. All lives are choice; personal choice. Your unique spirit has chosen to Be Here Now, or Be Here Then, (which are one and the same) to experience. How you interpret the experience is up to you.

The other flaw is to assume that time is linear.

Change your perspective, and you change the world.

posted November 06, 2006 04:19 PM         

"We're one, but we're not the same. We get to carry each other..."

posted November 06, 2006 10:10 PM         

Animals come back only as animals.

posted November 07, 2006 11:31 PM         

Such is the evolution of our spirit perhaps according to tibetan buddhism.
It is the closest that parallels darwism theory in animals. Perhaps the soul in that Ape will become human someday. Wish I could read Jesus's version uncensored hehehe.....

We have to remember time again that we are not humans having spiritual experience but rather spirituals having a human experience. The rest will follow with that. That birth mark on your skin, perhaps something happened to you in your past life, right there. That habit of yours lets say shakin ur leg perhaps comes from ur past life.

Time is in the Now when we are in the spiritual world and one with the source. In the reality world or the objective world, time is quantized. The brain only understand sequence of instructions. That explains why humans have a chronological remembrance of time. Perhaps thats how the universe evolved and perhaps thats the best way to evolve Hehehee.....

I was reading about the catholic mother of 8 children named Sutton who died in ireland and reborn in england after 21 years as Jenny Cockell (perhaps one can google on that incredible story). She met her son and recalled memories that only she as a mother would have known. The catholics who don't want to believe in reincarnation says "perhaps God gave her the opportunity for her to bring her kids together who were in orphanage"

Religion is indeed limiting sometimes and we have to resort to our viewpoint.

Cheers...

posted November 08, 2006 12:08 AM         

quote:

---

We have to remember time again that we are not humans having spiritual experience but rather spirituals having a human experience

---

------------------
The only other sound's the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

The woods are lovely, dark, and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

posted November 08, 2006 12:55 AM         

I'm glad you liked the quote. Its source is very very ancient. Sorry for the gramatical errors.

posted November 08, 2006 12:55 AM         

I'm glad you liked the quote. Its source is very very ancient. Sorry for the gramatical errors.