posted June 28, 2007 12:20 AM         

So, we may speak of Free Will,
with the understanding that the will is not free.

If you were given total immunity,
no consequences for your actions,
do you think you would be capable of evil?
Your genes would prevent you,
your conditioning would prevent you.

Live as if you had free will.
Do your best, but know that the results are not in your hands,
and the ultimate origins of your actions are unknown to you.

"The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from, or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the spirit."
- John 3:8

posted June 29, 2007 11:58 AM         

Very simply, I have said this before as it makes sense to me and hopefully it will to others, Karma is not pre-destined. We have already ordained it in a former existence. We have moulded our present existence by the actions of the past. However, as Linda pointed out, Karma is not 'fixed'. We have the CHOICE whether we behave in certains ways in response to certain situations. Granted, this is a very difficult concept when faced with the huge sufferings in the world - but it means that we can change the here and now and therefore change our future and the future of mankind. The moment you choose not to relatiate to some bad thing done to you, the instant that Karmic chain is broken for the person/persons whom did you wrong - you free yourself and them.

To constantly defend a concept of pre-destination is to suggest we have no freedom on any level. Our lives and our actions are not our own and belong to something else - what a terrible thing for us and the world! So, evil exists because it is ordained to exist in us?! When I do something bad, it is because I am 'born' to do it?! Where do we go from here? What place does spirituality have in response to such a situation? Religion exists to show us 'another way' - so, does that mean only a few of us are pre-destined to follow a 'higher path'.....?

posted June 29, 2007 10:34 PM         

What if we're just watching our lives unfold but we have absolutely not control over what goes on? Perhaps the consciousness is the observer, god as a scientist, observing his/her creation from a 1st person view, but not interfering.

posted June 30, 2007 11:05 PM         

In my opinion we never really did error in saying earth is the center of the universe-i.e. before copernicus proposed the hypothesis that the earth goes round the sun?

One thing we have to remember is that we are connected to the earth the sun, the moon and other heavenly bodies. This is key to understanding astrology.

The only way to understand God is to be subjective. All other phenomenons/events could be observed objectively. That is key to understanding what the older mystics said in the scriptures. Oh oh im interrupted , will be back...hope it came in a way I wanted to. NM , hope you got the point. will be back on free will.

cheers!!!

posted June 30, 2007 11:12 PM         

Bright Star -

Why would I want to confuse you?

I cannot confuse you,
I can only inform you of your own confusion.
If you know what you know,
I could not make you doubt it.

I have been investigating this matter for over a decade, in my own realizations and thoughts, in the writings of many eminent thinkers throughout history, and in the scriptures of a varieity of religious traditions. My findings all point to the conclusion that free will is only an optical illusion of consciousness. I do have proof. The proof is rational, and requires an honest inquiry beneath the surface of apparent phenonema.

Consider any thing that happens in the world...
A chair, for instance, placed inside a room.
How did it get there?
One person may say, "Someone placed it there," and this is enough.
Another might go further, and say, "Someone bought it and placed it there,".
Yet another may go further still, and say, "Someone made it, and sold it to someone else, who placed it in the room."
But we can still go further...
"A tree was cut down and made into a chair,
and sold to a retailer who sold it to a man who placed it in the room."
And still, we can go futher.
We can talk about the invention and evolution of chairs, in general,
why people desired new things to sit on, etc.
If we want to, we can trace back the entire evolution of man,
the species who created the chair,
and without whom, no chair would come into being,
and no specific chair would come into any specific room.

This whole self-evident train of logic is only intended to encourage a habit of inquiry into the ultimate sources of things. If we look at any thing, or any occurrence, deeply, we see layers upon layers peel back, only to reveal more and more layers. The same is the case when it comes to human beings, human choices, and the operations of consciousness.

Consider any choice...

Let's say you choose to go to bed early one night.
Did this choice arise out of thin air?
Out of the vaccuum of your "free" will?
Or, did you perhaps have a REASON for making the choice?
Perhaps you were unusually tired that night?
Perhaps you had an appointment the next day?
Whatever it is, there is a reason.

In fact, the more we consider it,
the more we see that there is a vast,
seemingly infinite network of reasons,
all co-contributing to the circumstances surrounding the present moment,
and, consequently, the choice to go to bed early.

Now, you might object, "But I can choose to stay up later, if I want to,".
I would have to agree,
but, since you cannot choose to stay up UNLESS you want to,
the honest inquiry becomes, "Could you want to? Could you choose to want to?"
Then we have to consider again that there were reasons for wanting to go to bed,
and no reasons for wanting to stay up.
What reason could you have for staying up?
There is always a reason for anything that happens,
and an absence of reasons for anything that does not happen.
Considering that a reason is also a "thing",
honest inquiry leads us to acknowledge that every reason has reasons for being, too.

Everything is interconnected.
There are no real boundaries, only apparent ones.
Things shade imperceptibly into one another,
and the closer you look, the harder it is to find the dividing line.
Physicists prove this in the microcosmic world,
when they use stronger and stronger microscopes,
to reveal smaller and smaller worlds;
worlds inside of worlds inside of worlds.
Astronomers prove this in the macrocosmic world,
when they use stronger and stronger telescopes,
and instruments that reveal worlds encompassing worlds encompassing worlds.

The psychologist reveals the same phenomenon
when studying the inner worlds of people.
Each arising behavior has its own unique history of reinforcement.
Genetics and environment can be seen to determine every thing that we say "belongs" to the man.
The only way to deny this is to settle for some superficial "cause",
without investigating the reasons for it.
Tracing the reasons which contributed to genetics and environment,
We reveal the history of the person's ancestors,
their own genetics and environment.
Again, at some point, we are thrown into the universe again,
in which, and out of which, all things arise.

In whatever direction we look,
the deeper we look, the more we find.
Speaking of anything as a "cause" is just a convenience.

As one philosopher remarked,
this fundamental oversight in our perception
has taken root in the very forms of our language.
For instance, we say that "Lightning flashes,"
but, viewed precisely, the lightning does not DO anything -
rather, that which we call "flashing"
is merely an aspect of that which we call "lightning".
It would not be lightning if it did not flash,
and it cannot be lightning without flashing.
Since lightning cannot NOT flash,
we cannot say that flashing is something separate from the lightning,
which the lightning "does".

It is the same with human beings and their actions.
The closer you look, the more you find that the man is not distinct,
either from his actions, or from the universe,
which ultimately gives rise to them.
Going further, we fall back on the absolute -
"What gave rise to the universe itself?"

Three propositions have been suggested:

1. The universe is uncaused;
it is infinite and eternal;
it has always been and will always be.
If there is a God,
God is co-eternal with the universe,
and may even be One with the universe.

2. The universe is the creation of God,
who is uncaused, infinite, and exists beyond time and space.

3. God is both united to and transcending the Universe,
its primal substance and its oversoul.

I'm not going to suggest which of these three are true,
that is another whole discussion.
But we have come far enough to see that we,
as human beings, are only cells within the body of the universe,
and our minds are only thoughts in the Mind of God,
or the Universal Mind, of you prefer.

If you are ready for this wisdom,
you will be able to perceive what I've been pointing to.

If not, do not worry about it.
But allow yourself to be confused,
allow yourself to be in doubt, if you are in doubt,
and do not imagine that you know what you know,
if you still feel uncertain.
Remember Faith and Doubt are not really different things,
just two sides of the same coin;
Faith goes nowhere without its shadow of doubt.

"Here the ways of men part:
If your desire is for happiness and peace of mind, believe.
If you wish to know the truth, inquire."
- Neitzsche

"The truth will set you free,
but first it will p!ss you off."
- Gloria Steinem

posted July 01, 2007 02:09 AM         

My comments:
Free will is defined as the path that one takes having processed the event such as sight of a person/or any such event such as viewing a chair/<substitute anything u wud here>

through your ego than the universal intellect that is present in each and every one of us.

And by now everyone knows that to listen to ego is not good. I will give you a simple experiment, hope this will help to understand what i said better.

Lets assume you are dating this guy and you are to decide if you wanna keep this relation for a long time. The first voice in your head will say "no don't give it a shot. dump him. He has dark secrets".
The next voice in your head will say "Yes keep him"

In my experience, the first instinct is the voice of God. The second instinct is that of devil. Hehehe.... When you go with the flow, it will not be hard to always hear the voice of God. Infact the ego will be silenced. This is the area where gurus/masters have a great control on and they have asked us to do the same. "Step away Peter. Devil has taken you" said Jesus. We did not understand that teaching but now we do don't we? Hehehe...

So when we deviate from the path we suffer. We loose some part of us. Sooner or later we will be aligned having learnt our lessons.

One thing you must also understand is that good Karma is not just always choosing the good things to be done. It is first to be good and then act. All those teachers(including me who wish to preach great things without being what they teach, please understand that you are cheating yourself.

Cheers !!!!

posted July 01, 2007 02:37 AM         

You are wise !!!

Spiritually, we are not algorithms or robots. We are not finite beings. We are infinite. To meet your God subjectively inside of you, you have to meet him beyond time and space. Time and space are dimensions of creation and it is we who are doers. in that aspect of creation. But it is there as well that we receive his grace.

When there is grace, there is no free will or karma.

Cheers!!!

posted July 22, 2007 07:33 PM         

Great thoughts, HSC

My feeling on 'Free Will' is- although we cannot change our genetics, our biological chemistry (for the most part), the set of circumstances we are born into, as well as the circumstances we are given to work with throughout life........
My feeling is this:

There is a higher consciousness in us which is, in a way separate from all this. This higher consciousness is something we can learn to tap into once we gain the insight. The insight could come to us in any number of ways- it is irrelevant how; because life is the great teacher.

We can learn to gain control, to stop reacting, to stop letting the cycles of life use us as its puppets in a never-ending web of karma or 'tapestry of pain and suffering'.....by using our free will to chose reason and wisdom.

Self-mastery as such is harnessed somehow by taking a step back from it all and becoming detached for a while to enable us to see an objective point of view.

posted July 23, 2007 10:13 PM         

I ALMOST PEE MY PANTS, LAUGHING SO FREAKING HARD!!!!LOL!!!