posted August 17, 2007 05:09 PM         

The true source of ’Original Sin’

"Ego is no more than this: identification with form, which primarily means thought forms. If evil has any reality - and it has a relative, not absolute, reality - this is also it's definition: complete identification with form - physical forms, thought forms, emotional forms. This results in a total unawareness of my connectedness with the whole, my intrinsic oneness with every "other" as well as with the Source. This forgetfulness is original sin, suffering, delusion. When this delusion of utter separateness underlies and governs whatever I think, say and do, what kind of world do I create? To find the answer to this, observe how humans relate to each other, read a history book, or watch the news on television tonight.

If the structures of the human mind remain unchanged, we will always end up re-creating fundamentally the same world, the same evils, the same dysfunction."

Ekhart Tolle
A New Earth

posted August 17, 2007 05:29 PM         

NosiS highly recommended the book to me and now i can highly recommend it to you. Honestly, i think you would really benefit from this one. It's helping me out alot.

In the meantime, here's a link with more quotes by him:
http://peacefulrivers.homestead.com/EckhartTolle.html

posted August 19, 2007 04:56 PM         

quote:

---

What is spiritual realization? The belief that you are spirit? No, that's a thought. A little closer to the truth than the thought that believes you are who your birth certificate says you are, but still a thought. Spiritual realization is to see clearly that what I perceive, experience, think, or feel is ultimately not who I am, that I cannot find myself in all those things that continuously pass away. The Buddha was probably the first human being to see this clearly, and so anata (no self) became one of the central points of his teaching. And when Jesus said, "Deny thyself," what he meant was: Negate (and thus undo) the illusion of self. If the self--ego--where truly who I am, it would be absurd to "deny" it.

What remains is the light of consciousness in which perceptions, experiences, thoughts, and feelings come and go. That is Being, that is the deeper, true I. When I know myself as that, whatever happens in my life is no longer of absolute but only of relative importance. I honor it, but it loses its absolute seriousness, its heaviness. The only thing that ultimately matters is this: Can I sense my essential Beingness, the I Am, in the background of my life at all times? To be more accurate, can I sense the I Am that I Am at this moment? Or am I losing myself in what happens, losing myself in the mind, in the world?

ALL STRUCTURES ARE UNSTABLE

Whatever form it takes, the unconscious drive behind ego is to strengthen the image of who I think I am, the phantom self that came into existence when thought - a great blessing as well as a great curse - began to take over and obscured the simple yet profound joy of connectedness with Being, the Source, God. Whatever behavior the ego manifests, the hidden motivating force is always the same: the need to stand out, be special, be in control; the need for power, for attention, for more. And of course, the need to feel a sense of seperation, that is to say, the need for opposition, enemies.

The ego always wants something from other people or situations. There is always a hidden agenda, always a sense of "not enough yet," of insufficiency and lack that needs to be filled. It uses people and situations to get what it wants, and even when it succeeds, it is never satisfied for long. Often it is thwarted in its aims, and for the most part the gap between "I want" and "what is" becomes a constant source of upset and anguish. The famous and now classic pop song, "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction", is the song of the ego. The underlying emotion that governs all the activity of the ego is fear. The fear of being nobody, the fear of nonexistence, the fear of death. All its activities are ultimately designed to eliminate this fear, but the most the ego can ever do is to cover it up temporarily with an intimate relationship, a new possession, or winning at this or that. Illusion will never satisfy you. Only the truth of who you are, if realilzed, will set you free.

Why fear? Because the ego arises by identification with form, and deep down it knows that no forms are permanent, that they are all fleeting. So there is always a sense of insecurity around the ego even if on the outside it appears confident.

As I was walking with a friend through a beautiful nature reserve near Malibu in California we came upon the ruins of what had been once a country house, destroyed by a fire several decades ago. As we approached the property, long overgrown with trees and all kinds of magnificent plants, there was a sign by the side of the trail put there by the park authorities. It read: DANGER. ALL STRUCTURES ARE UNSTABLE. I said to my friend, "That's a profound sutra [sacred scripture]." And we stood there in awe. Once you realize and accept that all structures (forms) are unstable, even the seemingly solid material ones, peace arises within you. This is because the recognition of the impermanence of all forms awakens you to the dimension of the formless within yourself, that which is beyond death. Jesus called it "eternal life."
_______________________________________
(bold mine)
Ekhart Tolle
A New Earth
chapter 3, The Core of the Ego

---

BAM !

posted August 20, 2007 03:55 PM         

quote:

---

Why fear? Because the ego arises by identification with form, and deep down it knows that no forms are permanent, that they are all fleeting. So there is always a sense of insecurity around the ego even if on the outside it appears confident.

---

Hey, T,

Have you read "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism"?

What do you know or think about Trungpa, if anything?

I'm beginning to think there is nothing beyond Ego...

That there are infinite gradations of Ego...

Identifying with anything is Ego...
Even if that "thing" claims to be "no thing".

And is there really a life without Identity?

I don't know.
I realize I don't know.
And I want to hear what these so-called enlightened people have to say...

But, it scares me...
and sure, i guess, the fear is ego,
but what am I scared of? --
I'm scared that all this spirituality,
all these gurus and god-men,
are only a means for our ego to build a fortress
stronger than any we could erect through secular means.

I have to be careful,...
My ideas scare me and turn me in circles,
and I cant go anywhere or do anything.
And, yeah, you can say,
"Is that so bad? Where is there to go? What is there to do?"

I keep coming back to Lao Tzu,
and, even more fondly, to Chuang-Tzu...

Something about them, the words they spoke...

Undermines everything.

And I know, in the end,
my greatest teachers must become my greatest adversaries.

The Ego loves its teachers,
just as much as it loves its enemies.

Until I renounce both,...

[rambling discontinued]

F*ck the drawing board.
Back to the hash-pipe.

peace,
s

posted August 20, 2007 07:31 PM         

Meditate, maybe, but instead of inside try somewhere outside where it is peaceful and you can be alone, surrounded by nature. If there is no-where like that near you, maybe that's the problem- being cut off from nature. Human beings do 'need places that haven't been re-arranged by the hand of man'.

Music which is very spiritual is a good way too, since everything in the uni-verse is formed by sound.....

Some say that water has a soul and water is music....hmmm.....Nep-TUNE....god of the ocean.

Yeah, it is great to listen to the music of a lake or stream or the ocean waves....very soul-soothing, don't you think?

posted August 20, 2007 08:11 PM         

No, I have not read that book or anything by Trungpa.

I think that beyond ego there is Truth; Reality. And I agree with you about there being infinite gradations of ego.
However, no matter how you want to label it or how light or dark the values of it are, it's still the same thing, ego. When setting out on a mission to un-do or lose it, it doesnt take long before you notice how impossible it seems. Like there's no escaping it. And there's so much to lose! Then there's the fear part, like you mentioned and observed which yes, is part of the ego's game, too. I agree, that identifying with any thing or no-thing can also be of ego. It gets tricky. For me, I see how much it has messed up my life or contiues to hold me back so I'm working on ridding myself of this false self. ...Or becoming more aware of my true self; letting the false self fall away and die. It will go down kicking and screaming, putting up a big fight and pull out all kinds of stops to keep itself alive - and all too often it wins w/o people even realizing it. I dont think it's a main objective for everyone in this lifetime to try and tackle their ego. Most dont care to look into the nature of it or are just completely unaware of the nature of it and some may have "come in" with more to un-do than others. Though to wake up from this world of illusion and be free of it it must be done. Youve got to lose yourself completely. The self that you think you are or have always known.

"Is there really life without Identity?"

I think so! Better than this life we know of now. You can still be in this world, while not of it. Still experience joy...really I think until you lose your false self completely, you never do experience true bliss and peace.

"I'm scared that all this spirituality,
all these gurus and god-men,
are only a means for our ego to build a fortress
stronger than any we could erect through secular means."

Who's scared? Which you? I think the real you doesnt get scared. It sees right through that fear picture.

It's the false ego you that is scared of its death, of losing its identity; personality that it's worked so hard at becoming. Do you think Lao Tzu and Chuang-Tzu or any other realized man would do that to you? Turn you into a stone? The ego has already built fortress all around you and so cunningly it has you believing youre free.

"The Ego loves its teachers,
just as much as it loves its enemies."

I dont believe the ego can love. They dont go together.
Just like, awareness and ego do not. They are not a match. When awareness comes, ego goes. That is the best way of destroying it. And I mean true Awareness, not becoming aware of or schooling yourself on the never ending mysteries or passing dramas of this world (or others), which i've been noticing alot of with people lately. I mean inner awareness the kind that only springs forth from a state of no mind through deep meditation. A flowering of inner knowledge or Real Wisdom takes place not from trying to figure out the mysteries of this world - which will never be solved, but only by going within and becoming aware.

posted August 20, 2007 08:28 PM         

ORIGINAL MIND, NO MIND http://www.unification.net/ws/theme022.htm

The passages in this section discuss the original mind or true self of the human being, which is the proper ground of enlightenment. The Original Mind is the intrinsic essence of mind, the true self. It is inherently pure and good, and in Christian terms it can be said to participate in the Kingdom of God. In Eastern traditions it is prior to thought, prior to desire, prior to any conceptualization at all. It is discovered by stripping away all sensation, desire, concepts, intellection, volition, and awareness of "I." It partakes of the Oneness of all. Buddhism calls this mind the Buddha Nature, and much of Buddhist practice is aimed at its realization. They also call it "no-mind" because it is without any grasping at a (selfish) self. Taoists agree, and seek to strip away all intellection and formalism in order to arrive at the spontaneous activity of the natural man who lives at one with the Tao of the universe. Some of the passages here criticize pious attempts to delineate a true nature of man based on doctrinal or formal criteria like Goodness or Benevolence, saying they only increase delusion by imposing artificial obstructions in the way of the functioning of the true self. Instead, all attachments must be stripped away until there is nothing but emptiness. Then the heart can be heard. Cf. Immanent, pp. 113-18.
_____________________________________________
That which is the finest essence--this whole world has that as its soul. That is Reality. That is the Self (Atman). That art thou.

1. Hinduism. Chandogya Upanishad 6.8.7

For him who... knows his own mind and sees intuitively his own nature, he is a Hero, a Teacher of gods and men, a Buddha.

2. Buddhism. Sutra of Hui Neng 1

The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, "Lo, here it is!" or "There!" for behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

3. Christianity. Bible, Luke 17.20-21

The Plain of High Heaven is not a specific place localized here or there, but refers rather to a pure state without any anomaly or excess. In terms of the human body, it is a state within the human breast without thought, contemplation, or passions.

4. Shinto. Masamichi Imbe, Secret Oral Tradition of the Book of the Divine Age

One may understand the true nature of the Tirthankara.... One may have interest in and devotion to the scripture. One may have self-control and penance. With all these, if one is not capable of realizing his own true self, to him Nirvana is beyond reach.

5. Jainism. Kundakunda, Pancastikaya 170

Ordinary men and ignorant people understand neither the Essence of Mind nor the Pure Land within themselves, so they wish to be born in the East or the West[ern Paradise]. But to the enlightened, everywhere is the same. As the Buddha said, "No matter where they happen to be, they are always happy and comfortable." If your mind is free from evil, the West is not far from here; but difficult indeed it would be for one whose heart is impure to be born there by invoking Amitabha!

6. Buddhism. Sutra of Hui Neng 3

Is it not the fact that there is in the body a clot of blood which, if it
is in good condition, the whole body is, too; and if it is in rotten
condition, so too is the whole body? Is not this the heart?

7. Islam. 40 Hadith of an-Nawawi 6

Your eye is the lamp of your body; when your eye is sound, your whole body is full of light; but when it is not sound, your body is full of darkness. Therefore be careful lest the light in you be darkness. If then your whole body is full of light, having no part dark, it will be wholly bright, as when a lamp with its rays gives you light.

8. Christianity. Bible, Luke 11.34-36

As one not knowing that a golden treasure lies buried beneath his feet may walk over it again and again, yet never find it, so all beings live every moment in the city of Brahman, yet never find him because of the veil of illusion by which he is concealed.

9. Hinduism. Chandogya Upanishad 8.3.2

Every being has the Buddha Nature. This is the self. Such a self is, since the very beginning, under cover of innumerable illusions. That is why a man cannot see it. O good man! There was a poor woman who had gold hidden somewhere in her house, but no one knew where it was. But there was a stranger who, by expediency, speaks to the poor woman, "I shall employ you to weed the lawn." The woman answered, "I cannot do it now, but if you show my son were the gold is hidden, I will work for you." The man says, "I know the way; I will show it to your son." The woman replies, "No one in my house, big or small, knows where the gold is hidden. How can you know?" The man then digs out the hidden gold and shows it to the woman. She is glad, and begins to respect him. O good man! The same is the case with a man's Buddha Nature. No one can see it. It is like the gold which the poor woman possessed and yet could not locate. I now let people see the Buddha Nature which they possess, but which was hidden by illusions. The Tathagata shows all beings the storehouse of enlightenment, which is the cask of true gold--their Buddha Nature.

10. Buddhism. Mahaparinirvana Sutra 214-15: Parable of the Hidden Treasure

The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves.

11. Baha'i Faith. Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah 132

When you pursue your original mind, you should be able to hear moral laws and see divinity in your mind's eye. You should be able to feel and touch the heart of God with your mind.

12. Unification Church. Sun Myung Moon, 4-14-57

The Lord takes His stand upon
hearing, sight, touch, taste, smell,
and upon the mind.
He enjoys what mind and senses enjoy.

Deluded men cannot trace His course.
Only the eye of wisdom sees Him
clothed in the states of existence, going forth,
being in the body, or taking in experience.
Disciplined men can also make an effort
and see His presence in themselves.

13. Hinduism. Bhagavad Gita 15.9-11

Passions consist of conceptualizations. The ultimate non-existence of these conceptualizations and imaginary fabrications--that is the purity that is the intrinsic nature of the mind. Misapprehensions are passions. The ultimate absence of misapprehensions is the intrinsic nature of mind. The presumption of self is passion. The absence of self is the intrinsic nature of mind.

14. Buddhism. Holy Teaching of Vimalakirti 3

"What is the gist of your teaching?" said Lao Tzu.
"The gist of it," said Confucius, "is benevolence and righteousness."
"May I ask if benevolence and righteousness belong to the inborn nature of man?" asked Lao Tzu.
"Of course," said Confucius. "If the gentleman lacks benevolence, he will get nowhere; if he lacks righteousness, he cannot even stay alive. Benevolence and righteousness are truly the inborn nature of man. What else could they be?"
Lao Tzu said, "May I ask your definition of benevolence and righteousness?"
Confucius said, "To be glad and joyful in mind; to embrace universal love and be without partisanship--this is the true form of benevolence and righteousness."
Lao Tzu said, "Hmm--close--except for the last part. 'Universal love'--that's a rather nebulous ideal, isn't it? And to be without partisanship is already a kind of partisanship. Do you want to keep the world from losing its simplicity? Heaven and earth hold fast to their constant ways, the sun and moon to their brightness, the stars and planets to their ranks, the birds and beasts to their flocks, the trees and shrubs to their stands. You have only to go along with Virtue in your actions, to follow the Way in your journey, and already you will be there. Why these flags of benevolence and righteousness, so bravely upraised, as though you were beating a drum and searching for a lost child? Ah, you will bring confusion to the nature of man."

15. Taoism. Chuang Tzu 13

It is like a painter
Spreading the various colors:
Delusion grasps different forms
But the elements have no distinctions.

In the elements there's no form,
And no form in the elements;
Yet apart from the elements
No form can be found.

In the mind is no painting,
In painting there is no mind;
Yet not apart from mind
Is any painting to be found.

That mind never stops,
Manifesting all forms,
Countless, inconceivably many,
Unknown to one another.

Just as a painter
Cannot know his own mind
Yet paints due to the mind,
So is the nature of all things.

Mind is like an artist,
Able to paint the worlds:
The five clusters [aggregates] are born thence;
There is nothing it does not make.

As in the mind, so is the Buddha;
As the Buddha, so living beings:
Know that Buddha and mind
Are in essence inexhaustible.

If people know the actions of mind
Create all the worlds,
They will see the Buddha
And understand Buddha's true nature.

Mind does not stay in the body,
Nor body stay in mind:
Yet it is able to perform Buddha-work
Freely, without precedent.

If people want to really know
All Buddhas of all times,
They should contemplate the nature of the cosmos:
All is but mental construction.

16. Buddhism. Garland Sutra 20

One day the Fifth Patriarch assembled all his disciples and said to them, "Go and seek for Wisdom in your own mind and then write me a stanza about it. He who understands what the Essence of Mind is will be given the Robe and the Dharma, and I shall make him the Sixth Patriarch. Go away quickly. Delay not in writing the stanza, as deliberation is quite unnecessary and of no use. The man who has realized the Essence of Mind can speak of it at once."

Having received this instruction, the disciples withdrew, but none dared to write a stanza, as they all deferred to the head instructor Shen Hsiu... At 12 o'clock that night Shen Hsiu went secretly with a lamp to write his stanza on the wall of the south corridor, so that the Patriarch might know what spiritual insight he had attained. The stanza read,

Our body is the Bodhi tree,
And our mind a mirror bright,
Carefully we wipe them hour by hour,
And let no dust alight.

...When the Patriarch saw the stanza the next morning, he instructed that it be read and recited by all the disciples, so that they might realize the Essence of Mind. At midnight he sent for Shen Hsiu to come to the hall, and asked him if the stanza was written by him or not. "It was, Sir," replied Shen Hsiu. "I dare not be so vain as to expect to get the Patriarchate, but I wish Your Holiness would kindly tell me whether my stanza shows the least grain of wisdom." "Your stanza," replied the Patriarch, "shows that you have not yet realized the Essence of Mind. So far you have reached the 'door of enlightenment,' but you have not yet entered it. To seek for supreme enlightenment with such an understanding as yours can hardly be successful... You had better go back to think it over again for a couple of days, and submit to me another stanza."

I [Hui Neng] was pounding rice when I heard a young boy reciting the stanza written by Shen Hsiu... I asked him to lead me to the hall and show me the stanza. A petty officer who happened to be there read it out to me. When he had finished reading, I told him that I had also composed a stanza, and asked him to write it on the wall. "Don't despise a beginner," I said. "You should know that the lowest class may have the sharpest wit, while the highest may be in want of intelligence. If you slight others, you commit a very great sin." I dictated my stanza, which read,

There is no Bodhi tree,
Nor stand of a mirror bright.
Since all is void,
Where can the dust alight?

When he had written this, the crowd of disciples was overwhelmed with amazement, but the Patriarch rubbed off the stanza with his shoe, lest jealous ones should do me injury. The next night he invited me secretly to his room, and expounded the Diamond Sutra to me. When he came to the sentence, "One should use one's mind in such a way that it will be free from any attachment," I at once became thoroughly enlightened, and realized that all things in the universe are the Essence of Mind itself. "Who would have thought," I said to the Patriarch, "that the Essence of Mind is intrinsically pure!..." Thus, to the knowledge of no one, the Dharma was transmitted to me at midnight, and I became the Sixth Patriarch.

17. Buddhism. Sutra of Hui Neng 1

The Perfect Way is only difficult for those who pick and choose;
Do not like, do not dislike; all will then be clear.
Make a hairbreadth difference, and Heaven and Earth are set apart;
If you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against.
The struggle between "for" and "against" is the mind's worst disease;
While the deep meaning is misunderstood, it is useless to meditate on Rest.
It [the Original Mind] is blank and featureless as space; It has no "too little" or "too much;"
Only because we take and reject does it seem to us not to be so.
Do not chase after entanglements as though they were real things,
Do not try to drive pain away by pretending that it is not real;
Pain, if you seek serenity in Oneness, will vanish of its own accord.
Stop all movement in order to get rest, and rest will itself be restless;
Linger over either extreme, and Oneness is forever lost.
Those who cannot attain Oneness in either case will fail;
To banish Reality is to sink deeper into the Real;
Allegiance to the Void implies denial of its voidness.
The more you talk about It, the more you think about It, the further from It you go.
Stop talking, stop thinking, and there is nothing you will not understand.
Return to the Root and you will find the Meaning;
Pursue the Light, and you will lose its source.
Look inward, and in a flash you will conquer the Apparent and the Void.
For the whirligigs of Apparent and Void all come from mistaken views;
There is no need to seek Truth; only stop having views.
Do not accept either position, examine it or pursue it;
At the least thought of "is" or "isn't" there is chaos, and the Mind is lost.
Though the two exist because of the One, do not cling to the One;
Only when no thought arises are the Dharmas without blame.
No blame, no Dharmas, no arising, no thought. ...
Let things take their own course; know that the Essence
Will neither go nor stay;
Let your nature blend with the Way and wander in it free from care.
Thoughts that are fettered turn from Truth,
Sink into the unwise habit of "not liking."
"Not liking" brings weariness of spirit; estrangements serve no purpose....
In the Dharma their are no separate dharmas (stations in life); only the foolish cleave
To their own preferences and attachments. ...
If the mind makes no distinctions all Dharmas become one.
Let the One with its mystery blot out all memory of complications.
Let the thought of the Dharmas as All-One bring you to the So-in-itself. ...
At the ultimate point, beyond which you can go no further,
You get to where there are no rules, no standards,
To where thought can accept Impartiality,
To where effect of action ceases,
Doubt is washed away, belief has no obstacle.
Nothing is left over, nothing remembered;
Space is bright, but self-illumined; no power of mind is exerted.
Nor indeed could mere thought bring us to such a place.
Nor could sense or feeling comprehend it.
It is the Truly-so, the Transcendent Sphere, where there is neither He nor I.
For swift converse with this sphere use the concept "Not Two;"
In the "Not Two" are no separate things, yet all things are included.
The wise throughout the Ten Quarters have had access to this Primal Truth;
For it is not a thing with extension in Time or Space;
A moment and an aeon for it are one.
Whether we see it or fail to see it, it is manifest always and everywhere.
The very small is as the very large when boundaries are forgotten;
The very large is as the very small when its outlines are not seen.
Being is an aspect of Non-being; Non-being is an aspect of Being.
In climes of thought where it is not so the mind does ill to dwell.
The One is none other than the All, the All none other than the One.
Take your stand on this, and the rest will follow of its own accord;
To trust in the Heart is the Not Two, the Not Two is to trust in the Heart.
I have spoken, but in vain; for what can words tell
Of things that have no yesterday, tomorrow, or today?

posted August 21, 2007 02:11 AM         

26,

You've brought up a great point!

quote:

---

I dont believe the ego can love. They dont go together.
Just like, awareness and ego do not. They are not a match. When awareness comes, ego goes. That is the best way of destroying it.

---

The ego doesn't really love, although it seems to attempt to exhibit it unsuccessfully through adulterated forms of behaviors like obsession, passive-aggression, zealotry, nonchalantism, etc. to infinity. I don't believe these behaviors are necessarily always expressed in negative terms either and I feel that it's all a matter of how the behavior is acted out. I invite you, and anyone who is curious about my meaning, to read my seventh post in this thread. I came across this recently and I actually surprised myself. I couldn't believe I had written it because this was well before I had read A New Earth or even knew the name Eckhart Tolle.
Eleanore mentioned to me, in an earlier conversation, that Steiner regarded the ego as a child that must be reared, so to speak.

quote:

---

I'm beginning to think there is nothing beyond Ego...

---

I feel that it is because there is something within Ego that comprises a part of the entirety of our individual constitution. I don't think that we are to destroy Ego. I don't even know if we truly can. I find that the more I become aware of my ego, the more I begin to think of it as a troubled child. Yet, the more aware I am of it, the less its tantrums and other misbehavings affect my centrality of being. I still feel the pangs from its caustic reactions, but they pass through my bodies much faster than before because the ego, not having as much control, cannot influence me to hang on to the suffering it causes. It is this observation of child-like personality within the ego that has led me to believe that the purpose of cultivating awareness is not to escape ego, but to embetter it.
The intense identification with form, however, is a construct of the ego. At the very least, the path leading towards Atman/Higher S-elf/Christ Consciousness calls for a diminution of this extreme emotional attachment to this egoic behavior. But even this idea and the attempt to express it in one's life is, again, an act of identifying with form. The difference is in how it is done.
When we are aware, it diminishes the effectiveness of the ego's strategies. How? I think it is because our awareness uses the ego's weakness to subdue it. What is the ego's primary function? To identify with forms. And what happens when we are aware of ego? We are not identified with specific thoughts, emotions or other false forms. Instead, we embody a higher consciousness. One might ask: "When you are aware of the ego, does the ego become aware of your awareness? Would it not observe your awareness and attempt to identify itself with that form?" My response would be: "Exactly." I may only hope that the fruit of that identification is more filling than other forms. So far, I feel that it is.

On another note: "Allegiance to the Void implies denial of its voidness.
The more you talk about It, the more you think about It, the further from It you go." 26, you really are a reservoir of amazingness. You must not stop surprising me with little gifts of literary wisdom!

HSC,

Your presence keeps provoking me with such thoughts that I dare not ignore. I will get back to you at the other thread. I have read up on some Besant and, so far, she intrigues me. Prepare for soaring the heights reason.

to you, my friends...

posted August 21, 2007 07:48 AM         

quote:

---

If we consider these ideas carefully there arises before our inner eye Rudolf Steiner's “Philosophy of Freedom (Philosophy of Spiritual Activity)” (chapter 9). There he talks about the emergence of ego consciousness through the physical body and the possibility for this ego consciousness to evolve because the Ego takes part in all spiritualised thinking. Further it says in the ninth chapter that the physical organisation has no part in the essence of thought, that instead, indeed, the physical withdraws and creates a space for thought. Man's thought is free! The will, however, is as yet only accessible through the physical body. It can be freed if the activity of thinking can be so strengthened that the ego is released slowly from the depth of the will. The reader can see how the majestic process of creating in freedom is deeply connected with the miraculous and creative work of the individual human being as he frees himself from that which hinders the rightful unfolding of the etheric heart. We are talking about the etheric heart as an organ for future lives, an organ with an eye for karmic cognition.

---

A Study of
The Formation of a New Etheric Heart Organ in the Light of the Present
Michaelic Mystery Culture as Rudolf Steiner Required it for our Age
in his Lectures
“Die Sendung Michaels und Die Offenbarung der eigentlichen
Geheimnisse des Menschenwesens” <--- A very worthwhile read, imo.

Just some of my thoughts ... there is ego but in which form(s) are we referring to it? It is a term that can be applied in many directions. If speaking of the individual human ego, we cannot destroy ego and neither can we create it ... ala energy. But we can transform it. Some people call this the difference between the "lower" self and the "higher" self, ie. the constant identification with material form and separateness from all other forms versus the awareness of "spiritual" forms and the unity of all. The ticket is perpetual awareness which appears to be easier spoken of than practiced. The ego is necessary to human development and evolution and certainly has its place ... it is an aspect of ourselves that has been individualized and therein lies its greatest potential and its greatest danger. Some would go so far as to say that our individual "Spirit" is actually the ego self-realized. So what can be "beyond" ego besides an ego that is aware of its individuality while equally aware of its complete unity? Thinking through the heart and all. Which leads me to believe that it is only through the truly transformed, aware or, if you prefer, "enlightened" ego that one can truly love at all.

******

Thank you so much for those wonderful passages, 26t! Wonderful thread to come across, all in all.

******

Btw, sesame, I've been meaning to read Ishmael for some time but haven't 'gotten around' to it yet. Perhaps it's time now. Thanks.

posted August 21, 2007 03:19 PM         

quote:

---

I find that the more I become aware of my ego, the more I begin to think of it as a troubled child.

---

Toddlers do need boundaries...

Thanks for the think
GG

posted August 21, 2007 04:24 PM         

quote:

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Toddlers do boundaries

---

Perhaps then, religion isn't such a bad thing at all?

posted August 21, 2007 09:45 PM         

When i want to express the thoughts i hold within i find they often fall apart with words. I have to say i resonate completely with what the both of you wrote. You put it better than i ever could have and gave me more food for thought, too!

I will have to check out the links and reply more tomorrow as i only had a few minutes to hop on the computer tonight.

posted August 22, 2007 01:23 PM         

quote:

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I feel that it is because there is something within Ego that comprises a part of the entirety of our individual constitution. I don't think that we are to destroy Ego. I don't even know if we truly can.

---

I think i've pinpointed an aspect in my chart that gives me the tendency to use terms like 'destroy' or 'to fight' with it, when that is not truly my meaning. lol

This land gets a whole lot stranger when you see forms for what they really are. I'm wondering how much more detatched from things i can get at this point..

quote:

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I still feel the pangs from its caustic reactions, but they pass through my bodies much faster than before because the ego, not having as much control, cannot influence me to hang on to the suffering it causes. It is this observation of child-like personality within the ego that has led me to believe that the purpose of cultivating awareness is not to escape ego, but to embetter it.

---

Yes, exactly! I hear you there. Well said.
When you recognize it for what it is and what it is there for, compassion for it develops and it seems to lose it's grip on you and over time becomes more foreign to your world. If that makes sense..

Eleanore, that article you linked was fascinating and i'd like to find out more on this subject. An ex-boyfriend of mine went to this Waldorf High School: http://www.highmowing.org/
Now i wish we had talked more about it and his experience there.

Will your little one be attending a Waldorf school?

This thread also triggered a reminder in me of a note i had made to self a few months back about book, though now it has become foggy... I remember jotting down Steiner's name and the title of a book he wrote on Yoga (?), going to the bookstore to see if it was in and it wasnt. For the life of me i cant remember now the title of it or which book i read the mention of it in. I wonder if either of you know anything about it? I'll have to do a web search to see what i can turn up..
I have not read anything by him except on the threads here and am now really interested in learning more. I think i'm getting a prompting to from the discussions here.

I really like the excerpt you quoted from him above. It's given me much to think about. As does what you wrote in your post. Transforming the lower self into the higher is what it's about.

quote:

---

The ego is necessary to human development and evolution and certainly has its place ... it is an aspect of ourselves that has been individualized and therein lies its greatest potential and its greatest danger. Some would go so far as to say that our individual "Spirit" is actually the ego self-realized. So what can be "beyond" ego besides an ego that is aware of its individuality while equally aware of its complete unity? Thinking through the heart and all. Which leads me to believe that it is only through the truly transformed, aware or, if you prefer, "enlightened" ego that one can truly love at all.

---

Love it!!

posted August 22, 2007 10:04 PM         

I hope more people join in on this thread!
HSC?
_________________________________
i'm pretty sure this is what i was looking for btw :
"Yoga in East and West"
lectures 5 & 6, May 29 & 30, 1906, in
An Esoteric Cosmology, http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/EsoCosmo/EsoCos_index.html
not positive though.
Have to say I'm surprised (happily) at what i'm turning up!

more links: http://www.immortalbooks.com.au/hidden/item_400b673025e1b714742510.html

posted August 23, 2007 01:58 AM         

I dont know what to say. I usually like these discussions, but lately it seems like pointless masturbation. I can think of a dozen things to say, but whatever, you know?

quote:

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"I'm scared that all this spirituality,
all these gurus and god-men,
are only a means for our ego to build a fortress
stronger than any we could erect through secular means."

Who's scared? Which you? I think the real you doesnt get scared. It sees right through that fear picture.

---

Yeah, I kind of tried to say that. I didnt articulate myself well, but I did mean to make an important distinction between the fear (along with the part of me that fears) and the thing feared. "Just because you're paranoid, dont mean they're not after you." Fear has its place, I think... it alerts us to dangers, and we'll outgrow it when we are alert enough to do without it. The issue I raised was not about fear (yes, the ego fears, we all know the ego fears), but about the bolstering of ego through means designed to transcend it. Whether we fear this or not, it is something to be aware of. Thats all I tried to say. Thanks for focussing on my fear, though.

quote:

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"The Ego loves its teachers,
just as much as it loves its enemies."

I dont believe the ego can love. They dont go together.

---

Again, I articulated myself poorly, and you focused on my choice of words rather than what I had to say. Again, you are not disagreeing with me or telling me anything. But I ought to have said, "The Ego is as attached to our teachers as it is to our enemies."

quote:

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Just like, awareness and ego do not. They are not a match. When awareness comes, ego goes. That is the best way of destroying it. And I mean true Awareness, not becoming aware of or schooling yourself on the never ending mysteries or passing dramas of this world (or others), which i've been noticing alot of with people lately. I mean inner awareness the kind that only springs forth from a state of no mind through deep meditation. A flowering of inner knowledge or Real Wisdom takes place not from trying to figure out the mysteries of this world - which will never be solved, but only by going within and becoming aware.

---

Do you meditate a lot?

quote:

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And I think you are in better shape than you sometimes think you are btw. >>-- --->

---

Is that a compliment or a dig?

Sorry this is such a grumpy post.

Yeah, I'm doing great.
I feel stupid all the time now.
I'm about as mature as a twelve-year-old,
and apparently not making any progress.
I dont want to talk or show my face anywhere.
Life is sordid and weird,
and I'm lonely and tired of looking.
But I'm doing great!

posted August 23, 2007 02:16 AM         

Thanks.

I'm not sure it is possible, as you suggest, to make an object of one's Ego. I think that is one of Ego's favorite games. I think the part of you that looks is Pure, but the part that sees is Ego. Keep looking. And when you catch yourself seeing something, let it go. Keep looking.

Or don't.

I'm not sure it matters.

posted August 23, 2007 07:21 AM         

Is 'ego' such a bad thing?

I desire. Therefor, I am.

Is this not true?

The key, then, would be

To find a balance between selfishness and selflessness.

I've heard it said that to love others, you must also love yourself....if all is empty and dark within then there is nothing to give!!

Therefor, 'selfishness' is not a negative thing if it means looking after yourself, allowing yourself pleasure and time to relax, etc. Often those who are hard on themselves treat others in a similar way...not always.
Of you simply realize and feel in your soul that all life is connected, you naturally want take care of it and not just focus on your 'self'.

People pondering the issue of 'ego' have, perhaps, become 'Lost In Translation' (great film)

I desire, therefor I am.

I feel, therefor I am.

When a child is born, they have no sense of anyone else's needs but their own. As they grow and develop, they gradually develop awareness. (Idea: the inability to empathize, in some, may be simply biological).

At the core of each and every one of us is
desire.

So, if you are someone who loves; who loves life, then desire is a good thing.

The reason I am bringing this up, is because ego has so many different meanings. It is usually, in my eyes, associated with desire and sense of self.

"Infinite love is the only truth, everything else is illusion".

posted August 23, 2007 07:28 AM         

Man/woman has spent eons trying to find ways to decipher the meaning of life, to create order out of chaos through rules.....and so on.

If it works for an individual, so be it.

posted August 23, 2007 02:06 PM         

So much to say..and at the same time, not...
...i'll try to pack it into some nutshells:

HSC..maybe i did misunderstand some of what you meant and didnt focus deeply enough on the meaning behind the choice of words. my mind is often going a mile a minute. Sorry, about that.

quote:

---

Again, you are not disagreeing with me or telling me anything.

---

I know that! And that is really what i was saying in that compliment. It was not a dig.

Yes, i meditate. Not as much as i'd like to.

quote:

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and apparently not making any progress.

---

If you say so.

quote:

---

I dont want to talk or show my face anywhere.
Life is sordid and weird,

---

I know.

posted August 23, 2007 02:28 PM         

Great thoughts as usual, LTT.

quote:

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Is 'ego' such a bad thing?

I desire. Therefor, I am.

---

No.
&
I dont think that desiring makes you you.

quote:

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I've heard it said that to love others, you must also love yourself....if all is empty and dark within then there is nothing to give

---

Right! But becoming 'empty' doesnt necessarily mean becoming dark too. To me anyway. I think alot of people look at it that way and that what turns them off to the notion.

quote:

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Of you simply realize and feel in your soul that all life is connected, you naturally want take care of it and not just focus on your 'self'.

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K. But when you focus on and love yourself enough; properly; unconditionally you automatically Love and "take care of" these so-called, "others". That becomes a given; natural and not something that needs to be cultivated. When you "realize and feel in your soul that all life is connected" there are no longer "others".