posted November 25, 2007 03:42 PM         

quote:

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"Few men are willing to brave the disapproval of their fellows, the censure of their colleagues, the wrath of their society. Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle or great intelligence. Yet it is the one essential, vital quality for those who seek to change a world which yields most painfully to change."

~ Robert F. Kennedy, 1966 speech

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oh, I LOVE that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

posted November 26, 2007 01:56 AM         

quote:

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True freedom is where every one must be allowed to share what they think respectfully. No religious dogmas must be applied to people

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Is it just me or does this sound like a bit of an oxymoron to others here?

First Mannu speaks of everyone being allowed the freedom to share in one sentence and then follows that sentence by telling others what they can and cannot share??????

So in other words, we have the freedom to share our thoughts and beliefs but only if those thoughts and beliefs are approved of by Mannu. Who goes around the boards of LL telling everyone what his beliefs are and what they should do and what their life journey should be and then when others share their thoughts on it he conveniently labels their thoughts as being "religious dogmas.

posted November 26, 2007 10:30 AM         

Apply religious dogmas to yourself rather than go about preaching and converting people in the name of religion. I do not believe in external or internal conversion to christianity. I believe in discovering your own religion first. If you end up choosing a established religion that way, its fine too. But don't coerce people to do the same.

I also don't believe in condemning people based on quotes from their Masters. Its perversion of Masters words and the Master himself will be sad that his words are being abused by society. You seem to have quoted a Master and condemned people including me within the last 60 days window. I don't want to paste specifics from your past posts. I am just stating what I felt. Be your own judge after you bring your awareness to your words. Do not create new fantasies before holding on to your pattern of thoughts.

I have nothing against religion or religious people as long as they don't create conflicts between people.

Also I think I said in the past "Do not believe in any one including me." So your accusations that I am being authoritative is baseless. Perhaps it comes out of misunderstanding or even miscommunication.

posted November 26, 2007 12:35 PM         

There does seem to be misunderstandings ( hope), but I can see how that would be.

You don't believe every christian is into converting people to christianity, do you Mannu?
That would be a mass stereotype, wouldn't
it?

Someone could assume you are a follower
just because you often speak of gurus/masters. If they didn't take in all else you say. There should be consideration that there's more unseen and unknown in people, beyond what little things they say here or there. Enough care to take
in a broader spectrum and not exclude
parts to form a whole.

I just care and feel sad
for this enmity.

posted November 26, 2007 01:29 PM         

To say that is not only narrow minded it is labeling and boxing other people. It is you "hardening the categories."

Dogma is a term mostly applied to religions but anything we think or believe spiritually and tell others is in fact, our own dogma. It doesn't have to be church related teachings to be dogma. If we believe something that Jim John wrote in a book it becomes our dogma because Jim John has been our teacher. Jim John was the one who implanted those thoughts in our minds. So we can be controlled by Jim Johns dogma as much as church dogma if we are easily controlled and allow it to happen. We can be controlled by the dogma of governments and the media as well. IF we are easily controlled. The last part of what I said , "believe", is especially dogma. If we believe teachings, no matter where we hear them or read them they become dogmas to us.

You object? Well, let me then tell you what I object to. I object to being labeled and categorized and stuffed into yours and others little boxes of discrimination simply because I am a Christian. I object to any Christian giving their thoughts and views on subjects that you guys start here about their religion being accused of "starting trouble." I object to being labled as "preaching" or trying to convert others when I give my thoughts while you guys say you are "just giving your thoughts and opinions."

It's also narrow minded to say that any Christian who speaks about spiritual matters is trying to "convert" others. I have stated even on this thread how I feel about those practices in Christianity. I have stated repeatedly that I believe in leaving people at peace with God whatever they conceive him to be. I have stated repeatedly that we are all different spiritual paths and leave a person at peace on their own spiritual journey.

Still, having said those types of things many times, and the fact that I am a Christian at an astrology site, I am still labeled, catergorized and boxed in by others here simply because I am a professed Christian. That is narrow minded and bigoted.

I am also not the only Christian at LL but the one singled out the most simply because I studied theology. That is also narrow minded. I studied theology because I DIDN'T just believe what I was told. I DIDN'T just go through the motions of my chosen religion. I wanted to know not only what the RC Church actually taught but WHY they taught it. I have also stated many times that I don't believe everything the Church teaches. Much of the doctrines are man made. It's obvious that I also look "outside of the box" at other forms of spirituality and teachings. Otherwise I would be at a Christian site and not here at LL. I also do not attend Mass regularly any longer. I haven't been to Mass in years. Mainly because anything repetitive loses it's meaning and the spirituality is diminished when you begin to feel you are only going to Mass out of obligation.

All of this is how I truly am and see religion but still I am sterotyped and labeled and that is not I who am "hardening the categories" it is you, Mannu and about two others here at UC. It is not I labeling you and boxing you in. It is you and some others doing that to me.

It is not I am who am eliminating you from discussions. It is you who and some others who are attempting to do that to all Christians.

I give my spiritual thoughts from my heart and from my own spiritual experiences in my life not from dogmatic teachings. Just as you and anyone else does. It's ludicrous to think that people are attracted to any religion due the dogma. It's the spirituality of those religions they are attracted to. Not doctrine. Not dogma. And there is a difference in the two.

It's labeling and hardening of the categories and boxing people in to say that every time they speak if they are a Christian they are trying to "convert" others or "only saying what they have been told." It's more. It's religious bigotry and discrimination.

I am not controlled by anyone. Not the church and not by you or anyone else, Mannu. I will not be silenced because you object to Christians and have a bias and bigotry against Christians. I will speak my mind and continue to do so even if you do object to it and stalk me on forums and attempt to twist and distort my words and paint an image of me that you wish others to believe. Same applies to your cronies.

I am a devotee of Jesus as HSC once said. I absolutely adore the guy. So I will give my thoughts when he is being slammed and misrepresented because of something a few of you read that Jim John said about it.

It is not a requirement of anyone but Christians to believe in the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. But forcefully continuing to present your case against Jesus and then attempt to silence Christians from speaking their thoughts is bigotry and discrimination.

Christians are labeled the trouble makers or accused of "starting a religious war" when they speak their thoughts but I don't see any Christians at LL putting in threads saying things about Buddha or Buddhism or Hinduism or any other religion.

I will believe there is no religious discrimination around LL sbout Christianity when I see a thread titled " Rethinking the Torah," or "Rethinking the Teachings of Buddha," or "Rethinking the Koran." I will believe there is no anti-Christian bigotry and discrimination at LL when someone does not put in a long post horrified over a picture of the crucifixion and putting in a thread calling it the " Crucifixion, Crucifiction." That is an outright attack on the beliefs of a singled out religion. And yet there are disclaimers posted which pretty much state that you can speak your minds freely ( yes you can ) but Christians will be accused of "starting a religious war" or trying to "convert others" or being "dogmatic and brainwashed" or otherwise labled if they speak on those threads.

Instead of judging others and telling them what they are and what their motives are you maybe should look inward and see your own faults and motives, Mannu. Instead of telling others they are intolerant you should maybe look inward and address your own intolerances and discover why you seem to disdain and judge your fellow man so much.

posted November 26, 2007 09:03 PM         

When we put Jesus , Moses, Krishna, Buddha, Muhammed and other spiritual leaders in one room they will go along well with each other. When we put their devotees they all will fight with each other.

posted November 26, 2007 09:43 PM         

How Be-neath You!!!

Much rather be below, then be to held to High Above!!!!!

posted November 27, 2007 06:56 AM         

As far as I know it's synonymous w/ "worshipper".

A friend of mine refers to himself as a 'devotee' of Krishna, meaning he worships Krishna. That's all. He's certainly not referring to himself as a sheep.

posted November 27, 2007 07:10 AM         

quote:

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When we put Jesus , Moses, Krishna, Buddha, Muhammed and other spiritual leaders in one room they will go along well with each other. When we put their devotees they all will fight with each other.

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posted November 27, 2007 10:46 PM         

quote:

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I have many things to say but I believe its a waste of my time and yours. Because in the end people will always believe in a manner in which they perceive.
When we put Jesus , Moses, Krishna, Buddha, Muhammed and other spiritual leaders in one room they will go along well with each other. When we put their devotees they all will fight with each other.

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That being the case for devotees of Jesus and other religious leaders, what is your excuse for fighting about religion, Mannu? Who are you a devotee or follower of that you feel the need to constantly prove that you are right and others are wrong?

Again, what you stated in the above quote shows a very shortsighted, narrow mind that judges others very harshly because they do not think and believe as you do. It also shows a lot of airs of superiority over your fellow man. As if you alone are above all that when you prove over and over again on the threads here at LL that you are not above it at all. It shows that you label people, you catergorize them and box them in according to your own perceived notions.

All Christians are not alike, Mannu. We are all individuals. All Buddhists or Hindus or Muslims or Jews are not alike either. You take what a group of fanatics do and put it off on the whole religion and everyone in that religion. That is very narrow minded and shortsighted. It's not the religion itself that starts wars. It's people who use God and the religion for their own control agendas. Religions are comprised of people just like everything else on earth. Where there are people there will be good people and bad people. People bring their own garbage, their own psychological issues into religion. When you mix the need to control with religion it is always going to have lethal results. But that does not make the religion itself evil and it does mean that there are not also very good and spiritual people in those religions. It is just so very narrow minded to see it that way. It's also judgmental in a condemning way.

Bottom line. I have no problem at all with what you believe, Mannu. It does not bother me at all what you believe or don't believe. It's your journey. I wish you well and may God bless you on that journey. But it seems that is not the case with you. It seems you do have a problem with my beliefs. Otherwise you wouldn't go to the lengths that you do to make me look bad and prove me wrong.

I am not out to convert anyone. That would be stepping on God toes in my mind. Only God converts. I just want to be left in peace on my journey as I leave others in peace on their journey.

I am happy with my spiritual journey. It has served me very well in life. I have an optimistic outlook on life. I have hope and a deep faith in God that gets me through the hard times in life and helps me learn the lessons I need to learn from those things. I have developed a sense of my self-worth in the context of being a Child of God. I am not a perfect human being or a perfect Christian but I try to be a little better each day. Baby steps. We are headed to the same place is how I see it. It doesn't matter what routes we may take to get there. I personally believe that our path on our journey and the crosses we bear in life are solely fashioned for each and everyone of us.

It is not I who am out to convert others to my beliefs, it is not I who feel the need to prove others are wrong in their beliefs and that their religions are wrong and evil. I have nothing to prove. I could well be wrong about some things because God is a Great Mystery, but based on my own spiritual experiences which have been a major factor in forming my deep beliefs in some things, I am not all wrong either.

I don't think that God is about who is right and who is wrong anyway.

Leave a person at peace on their own journey and in their own beliefs. It is only the need to control others that makes anyone want to prove a religion wrong or a person's beliefs wrong. It's that which causes religious wars and the fighting. Not religions in themselves. People are attracted to a certain religion because of the spirituality they find it it. They find God there. People are not attracted to religions because of dogmas and doctrines per se. Some of those they may believe but not just because they are told to believe them. Others they may not believe at all or are undecided about.

"To be with God is really to be involved with some enormous, overwhelming desire, and joy, and power which you cannot control, which controls you. God is a means of liberation and not a means to control others."

- James Baldwin
Nobody Knows My Name

If God doesn't liberate you from the need to control others and everything then something is wrong. Because the whole thing about God is letting go of the ego's need to control and letting God just be God in your life and the lives of others.

Sorry that your thread got off topic, NAM. But maybe it hasn't really gotten off topic because we are sharing our thoughts and feelings here. Irritation, frustration, and even anger are after all, normal human feelings.

posted November 28, 2007 11:34 AM         

You are my lover not my rival

Small small truths capable of giving satoric truths realization when we bring our awareness to anything.

Did you ever feel your lover or your spouse was your intimate enemy? If you did, then also hear this : The Masters are secretive because when the very truths are uttered there is this anger towards him/her initially. [Please note Masters are the very embodiment of what his disciples tries to achieve. So substitute yourself in his/her place in any situation affecting your life and then see if it makes sense. If you can do that without a Master i.e just centering your true self not your perceived self thats fine too. I am not here to give you another set of dogmas. The only Taurean besides my dad who ever made sense to me is JK krishnamurthy. Not even Freud. I am not trying to put taureans in a box. but just sharing my own experience. I have to use words to communicate don't I ]

Perhaps Mirandee is angry because I am shaking her very beliefs somewhere. I just made a statement on not applying religious dogmas to people based on my experience in some part of the outside world and I was influenced by some thought exchanges that went on in LL in the past. And Mirandee assumed I was speaking to her. Didn't I already say that I will not address anything to you directly from now on. But its you who dragged me in to a conversation this time didn't you? I guess it evens out. I will read all your posts inspite of the freedom that I have. That is I could choose to ignore your posts. You very well know that you have the same freedom. I believe in internalizing the dogmas (spiritual/religion whatever). What the east calls Dhamma is known as religion here.
The problem is when you externalize it rather than internalize. That is what I am against (but also not totally). Where are the founding fathers of America or people present now in flesh and blood who think like them but are silent?

I tell you, an atheist understanding his responsibilities is much closer to your own definition of God than the so called people of established religions. He follows his own dhamma that benefits him and others and even when not benefitting making sure he does not hurt others. Although he may not accept that he is following a dhamma.

When you tell people there is God. Then you have to start explaining what is God? When you tell people God does not exist. You have to do the same. Do you all understand what I am trying to say?

Also a small story : A great king in India once asked his wise minister "Who is greater ? Your King or God?" The minister replied "Certainly you are sir?". The king was surprised "Explain!!". The humble minister said "Sir, you can exclude any one from your kingdom but not God".

All of us are like that king/queen. Just come to an acceptance of that truth. Please don't let your devotion to your prophets/Gods appear like attachments. There is a difference between love and attachment. When you are in love you simply expand.

Mirandee I have nothing against you. I have stated previously on how you quote your master based on some book and then defend your own religion from people based on your own pattern of thoughts such as darkness, bad wolves etc. Perhaps you and people like you really don't understand true freedom.
And I have never accused u of converting people. No I don't think you are that.

posted November 28, 2007 12:09 PM         

quote:

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Please don't let your devotion to your prophets/Gods appear like attachments. There is a difference between love and attachment. When you are in love you simply expand.

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This is exactly why I don't have a religion.
There is a common ground somewhere in this life/reality/realm we share and that is not any beliefs of what or whose God is better but love and the love to others, I understand this now and it is why I don't look at nobody down because of their beleifs as long as they don't put their so call God as number one , but "love and care for others as number one".<---this is very important to me, it seems if you don't do this then you really don't know God.

Again, I am convinced there is a common ground to all of us and that is NOT a religion of any kind, religion is nothing else but a membership to your closest friends and the people you want to hang out with.

In other words, my God is not better than yours, your God is not better than mine...with that said I have no God and I have a God.

posted November 28, 2007 07:23 PM         

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoYzz6Og5lY&feature=related

(center text) http://www.mp3lyrics.org

Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright
I don't care what they may say
I don't care what they may do
I don't care what they may say
Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
Jesus is just alright

Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright

I don't care what they may know
I don't care where they may go
I don't care what they may know
[ Lyrics provided by www.mp3lyrics.org ]
Jesus is just alright, oh yeah

Jesus, he's my friend; Jesus, he's my friend
He took me by the hand; Led me far from this land
Jesus, he's my friend

Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright

I don't care what they may say, I don't care what they may do
I don't care what they may say, Jesus is just alright, oh yeah

posted November 28, 2007 09:25 PM         

To All My Readers

Partial truth--the seeds of Wisdom--can be found in many places. In primal instinct may partial truth be found... in earthly law, social customs, scientific research, philosophy and RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE. The seeds of Wisdom are contained in ALL Scriptures ever written... especially in ART, MUSIC and POETRY...and, above all, in NATURE!!!

But real Truth can be found in one place only--in every man's and woman's communion with an eternal Source of hidden Knowledge within-- which each indivdual must seek and find for Himself or Herself.

We may point out the path to others, but each must walk along that path ALONE-- until everysingle " LOST ONE " has made the whole journey--and All of US have finally reached the LIGHT of full-born Wisdom at the end of the Way ... where we began, a long-forgotten Time ago.