posted March 29, 2008 02:08 PM         

Given your agreement and disagreement, it seems that I have arrived at an even score with you then Lets hope I don't damage my score in the future LOL

Since we have moved to the realm of opinion, you might find this one useful:

When you reach a point that you have more questions then you have answers, you might find my friendship more usful and the score card more fluid. Until then, I am always good for a comment or two on the Patriarchs and/or God

Peace and Blessings
Meili

posted March 29, 2008 02:09 PM         

26 is too kind. I'm not a True Friend. That is beyond my abillities, as I've already pointed out to you. For the record, True Friendship was offered to you and you declined.

No shock tactics were employed here. You've admitted that nothing I said was news to you. It's either one or the other.

Don't blame me for your drug use and withdrawal. You're a grown man. Take responsibilty for your own actions.

I have a closely conjunct Venus and Sun. I'm horribly lazy. I pace endlessly on the beach, wringing my hands, suspiciously eyeing the waves before diving in. I torment myself. And probably those around me too.
I have Mars and Uranus in the 1st house. I have more physical bravado than many, but no more so than most for spiritual endeavors. My Neptune is there with Venus and the Sun, which I'm told heightens sensitivity to beauty and artistry. I can match you.

I can't think of anyone on this site more inclined to boast of his gifts, real or imagined, than you. "A few dozen"? Your arrogance is truly endless. I stand in awe.

I do not look down on you. If pressed, I would venture to say that I'm more refined than you in some areas and less so in others, but, in general, we're in the same place.

Yes, you'll reflect on Zen and Taoist thought, collect a few choice quotes, feel boredom set in, decide Zen and Taoist thought weren't up to snuff after all and finally move on ... all the while blaming someone else or a few planets in a bad house. You don't drink from many cups, Stephen. More like you swish the water around in your mouth a bit, then spit it out. And that's all well and good and may very well be an essential part of your path, but let's call a spade a spade.

I have no Certainty. The closest I can come to Certainty is to say I have faith.

maybe maybe maybe ...

posted March 29, 2008 02:21 PM         

Talk about lazy... I get exhausted just watching you...

The rest of you love it too. Teach and learn and learn and teach and feel and express our worst and our best. All in a days work. I feel the need to quote an Aries friend...

posted March 29, 2008 02:32 PM         

It's not too late, for the joyous message of angelic hosts (not yet identified) still rings its clarion call today... now ushering in the Aquarian Age... heralding hope to those who watch the skies and listen for the music. There could be, I think, no greater prelude to a miracle so needed perhaps approaching sooner than we guess, than to employ the art of ancient wise men to pave the way for his return with a new Star Quest for love... love of man for woman.. and of both together then for every living plant and creature. For love alone has the power to bring peace at history's twilight hour to Earthlings of good will."

posted March 29, 2008 02:38 PM         

>Stephen, I sincerely hope you're up to it, because we're going to get a few things straight. Chalk that up to my Sag moon if you'd like.

What were you doing before?

>26 is too kind. I'm not a True Friend. That is beyond my abillities, as I've already pointed out to you. For the record, True Friendship was offered to you and you declined.

Offered to me by who? Not by you, right?
How can you offer what is not yours to give?

>No shock tactics were employed here. You've admitted that nothing I said was news to you. It's either one or the other.

It is not news to a fat person that they are fat.
Is it okay, then, to say, "you are fat",
in a tone of accusation and admonishment?
It still comes as a shock, no?

Even if the person says, "I am fat,"
is it okay to repeat it back to them,
when you know they are speaking in self-disgust,
and the words are being used as daggers? --
and that they are only saying it in the first place
to get you to call off your dogs and give them a break?

How about if a person is saying something bad about their own mother?
Is it okay, then, to agree with them explicitly?
Or is it perhaps more okay for them and less okay for you?

Seriously, what was your intention,
in repeating back to me what I just said?
It's like I said "I'm fat",
and you coldly replied,
"Agreed. You are fat. (And you are also ugly.)"

>Don't blame me for your drug use and withdrawal. You're a grown man. Take responsibilty for your own actions.

LOL Okay, TINK.
Then dont blame me for pidaua's reaction.
After all, we are not in this together.

>I have a closely conjunct Venus and Sun. I'm horribly lazy. I pace endlessly on the beach, wringing my hands, suspiciously eyeing the waves before diving in. I torment myself. And probably those around me too.

Now it begins to make sense.
Do me a favor and dont take it out on me.

>I have Mars and Uranus in the 1st house. I have more physical bravado than many, but no more so than most for spiritual endeavors.

Yet you made it an issue of "courage".

>My Neptune is there with Venus and the Sun, which I'm told heightens sensitivity to beauty and artistry. I can match you.

So you say.
Show us something sometime.

>I can't think of anyone on this site more inclined to boast of his gifts, real or imagined, than you. "A few dozen"? Your arrogance is truly endless. I stand in awe.

You probably dont know anyone as inclined to insult himself either. I tend to exaggerrate, in both directions. But I have not made the same claims to spiritual authority which you and Meili have made. I frequently insist that these are my perceptions, or perceptions of others which I have come to appreciate. In any case, if you would like, I can post interpretations for Mars/Mercury, Sun conjunct Uranus, and Moon in Aquarius (and about seven other aspects/placements) that all suggest a mind that is constantly busy and conscious of far more perspectives and possibilities than most.

>I do not look down on you. If pressed, I would venture to say that I'm more refined than you in some areas and less so in others, but, in general, we're in the same place.

Nice to know.
You definitely fooled me.

>Yes, you'll reflect on Zen and Taoist thought, collect a few choice quotes, feel boredom set in, decide Zen and Taoist thought weren't up to snuff after all and finally move on ... all the while blaming someone else or a few planets in a bad house.

Trust me,
I blame myself too.
There's plenty to go around.

>You don't drink from many cups, Stephen. More like you swish the water around in your mouth a bit, then spit it out.

LOL
I must be a connosoir.

Or a "passerby".

>And that's all well and good and may very well be an essential part of your path, but let's call a spade a spade.

Maybe. But depth is relative.

You are in no position to know:
what I am swishing,
what I am swilling,
what I am sick on,
what I am puking up,
what I am digesting,
what I am ******* out,
and what I have surrendered my reason to,
and am completely drunk on.

>I have no Certainty. The closest I can come to Certainty is to say I have faith.

Okay, so, we are in the same boat.
Dont talk to me about certainty.

posted March 29, 2008 02:43 PM         

"...Wilde, all his life, held that Jesus Christ was primarily an artist, and a Gnostic, and Oscar preferred the Gospel of John, on highly heretical grounds, as here in De Profundis:

While in reading the Gospels--particularly that of St. John himself, or whatever early Gnostic took his name and mantle-- I see the continual assertion of the imagination as the basis of all spiritual and material life, I see also that to Christ imagination was simply a form of Love, and that to him Love was Lord in the fullest meaning of the phrase.

Wilde recalled remarking to Gide that everything Christ said could be placed immediately in the realm of Art and there be fulfilled completely. "A truth ceases to be true when more than one person believes in it" is a famous Wildean aphorism... The crucial discussion of Christ by Wilde comes in "The Soul of Man under Socialism," and like the rest of the essay is a hymn to personality, to individual self-development. Here is Wilde at his least ironic, and perhaps least understood:

posted March 29, 2008 03:04 PM         

Since the ages when the greatest spiritual treatises and religions were born,
we have seen a drastic decrease in the use of these naturally occuring spiritual medicines.
Their use continues steadily only among indigeonous tribal cultures,
and some of the more free-thinking members of our modern societies.

As with all spiritual practices,
there is an optimal way to approach entheogens.
Ideally, one should be apprenticed to a competent shaman.
But this is not the convenient option that it once was.
Today, with so many people uneducated about these plants,
with so many people turning their backs on them,
and corrupt governments outlawing their use,
it is incredibly difficult to find a teacher.
Does that mean that we should not make use of entheogens? Of course not.
It just means we must learn as our ancestors did; for ourselves.

In an ideal world, we would not ingest plants,
but would discover all our spiritual sustainance within.
In an ideal world, we would not ingest anything,
but would discover all our material sustainance within.
We could feed our bodies and souls with pure light.
But, in the real world, plants can nurish your body and soul.

By all means, meditate and perform all other prescribed rites.
If you are able to do these things, with or without medicine,
you are certainly encouraged to do so.
But, if you are not willing or able to do these things,
should you be discouraged from spiritual pursuits altogether?
Should you turn your back on all forms of spirituality, -- or,
should you, at least, try to do that which you can, and feel inspired to do?

There are many paths, and we must all go by the grace which is given us.
Let no person think more highly of him or herself than is just.

Pay no mind to rigid fundamentalists.
Be brave enough to follow your own lights,
and discover your individual destiny.

If you feel that these plant-intelligences are spiritual allies,
perhaps that is your own unique voice imploring you to fulfill your destiny.

Spirit will find a way to inspire you.

"Follow your bliss." ~ Joseph Campbell

posted March 29, 2008 03:36 PM         

No, not offered by me.

No, it doesn't come as a shock. Unless, I'm saying "I'm fat" hoping against hell someone says "Oh no, you're not fat, honey. You look really good." I gave you more credit than that. Then again, I'm apparently stuuupid.

My intent. Impatience. Impatience with the "I'm lazy. I'm depressed. I'm a tortured genius" mantra. Ok, I get it. You're lazy and depressed. Can we move on? More importantly, can you move on?(notice the big green smiley face at upper left hand corner of post in question)

I'm not certain how all of this qualifies as "daggers". That's a bit much, no?

Pidaua is 100% responsibile for her actions and reactions. I'm willing to bet she would agree.

Now what about that conjunct Venus and Sun? You brought up the astrological angle. Lets see it through.

I didn't make it an issue of courage. You said anyone disagreeing with your peyote-as-a-shortcut-to-God theory was probably just afraid of the stuff. I disagree with your theory and I'm not afraid.

Show you what exactly? My chart? hmmm maybe not. If you choose not to believe I have that placement, that's ok with me.

I've made no claim to spiritual authority.

posted March 29, 2008 04:06 PM         

>I was sharing experience and opinions. The more mature members of the tribe can generally go about this without too much bloodshed. Try it. You might enjoy it.
No, not offered by me.

You can keep your opinions about me,
if what you have to say is pointlessly negative.

If that makes me immature, so be it.

>No, it doesn't come as a shock. Unless, I'm saying "I'm fat" hoping against hell someone says "Oh no, you're not fat, honey. You look really good." I gave you more credit than that. Then again, I'm apparently stuuupid.

I'm not looking for you to contradict me,
I'm asking you not to rub it in.
There's a difference.

Now, would you like me to contradict you,
and reassure you that you are not stuuupid?
You are not stupid.
You are highly intelligent.
Maybe even brilliant at times.
In addition to that,
you have gifts that humble me greatly.

>My intent. Impatience. Impatience with the "I'm lazy. I'm depressed. I'm a tortured genius" mantra. Ok, I get it.

Sure you do.

>You're lazy and depressed. Can we move on? More importantly, can you move on?(notice the big green smiley face at upper left hand corner of post in question)

Maybe I can't.
But that is my struggle.
The real question is, whats it to you?
You have voiced your own judgments of me.
Now, can you move on?
At least I have the excuse that its my own sh!t.

>I'm not certain how all of this qualifies as "daggers". That's a bit much, no?

posted March 29, 2008 04:07 PM         

>I'm willing to bet she would agree.

Before or after she asks for my head?

>Now what about that conjunct Venus and Sun? You brought up the astrological angle. Lets see it through.

If we are going to "see it through",
lets answer the other 2/3 of the question, shall we?
Tell me about your 1st house Moon and Pisces South Node.
You are already "pacing the beaches" with that Venus.
I can't imagine how you handle that Moon and SNode.

But we can start with Venus, if that is easier for you.

>I didn't make it an issue of courage. You said anyone disagreeing with your peyote-as-a-shortcut-to-God theory was probably just afraid of the stuff. I disagree with your theory and I'm not afraid.

I said no such thing.
I asked, "So what are you afraid of?"
It was intended provocatively.
I think people have all sorts of reasons for what they do.
Fear may or may not be one of them.

>Show you what exactly? My chart? hmmm maybe not. If you choose not to believe I have that placement, that's ok with me.

Slow down.
I'm not questioning your chart.
I want to see evidence of sensitivity.
My chart is evidence for those who cannot see
the evidence that is right in front of their own eyes.
If my condition is not evidence of sensitivity, what is?

>I've made no claim to spiritual authority.

Then you agree,
I may be right about this stuff.

posted March 29, 2008 04:21 PM         

Oh, now that's leaving yourself waaay too open.

But you know what, HSC? I'm thinking - and forgive me for that - you're just too sensitive and vunerable for me. I'm no spiritual authority, but I am serious about my spiritual studies. Pussyfooting around, as my saggie grams used to say, just isn't my forte. I can take it like a man. I'm willing to pay whatever price is required. I don't do so well with those of a more delicate and wavering constitution.

I think I'll just watch from the sidelines from here on out.

posted March 29, 2008 04:23 PM         

You're one tough *****, TINK.

And I mean that in the fullest sense of the word.

posted March 29, 2008 05:21 PM         

What happens when we are delving deep into the nature of our consciousness, while our collective subconscious erupts with rage and violence in the Middle East?

I felt myself asking, "Is it realistic to hope for a new humanity?" As I look at the faces of people yearning for true peace (not just the absence of war) and feel their presence, any sense of helplessness diminishes, because I am looking at the seeds of the new humanity.

These are caring, compassionate, loving, people engaged in personal transformation. There are many all over the world, if only they could be connected. If only we could reach critical mass as soon as humanly possible.

But the immediate question for everyone of us is "What can I do now?"

I would like to share my reflections with all of you in this time of war. These are not original insights. They have been part of wisdom traditions for a long, long time. I deeply honor the sentiments of those of you who favor social activism, but that approach has been tried over and over again without great success. I believe at the core of my being that only a consciousness-based approach will work.

Societies get into the grip of their own self-created story.

It's helpful to realize that we can choose not to participate in that story. Realize that national and tribal stories are limited, self-serving, based on the past, reinforced by orthodoxy, and therefore opposed to real change. Stories are incredibly persuasive. Wars are fueled by victimization that runs deep, for example. So let us not try to change anyone's story. Let us only notice and observe ourselves when we buy into it and then let us back away from participating in it.

Let us not demand of ourselves that we alone must be the agent of change. In a fire brigade everyone passes along a bucket, but only the last person puts out the fire. None of us know where we stand in line. We may be here simply to pass a bucket; we may be called on to play a major role. In either case, all we can do is think, act, and say. Let us direct our thoughts, words, and actions to peace. That is all we can do. Let the results be what they will be.

Let us realize that engagement and detachment aren't opposite -- the more engaged we become, the more detached we will have to be. Otherwise, we will lose ourselves in conflict, obsessiveness, anxiety over the future, and feelings of guilt and inadequacy. Keep in mind that we are pioneers into the unknown, and uncertainty is our ally. When our minds want closure, certainty, and finality, let us remind ourselves that these are fictions. Our joyous moments will come from riding the wave, not asking to get off at the next station.

Most misery is born of failed expectations so let us learn to minimize expectations so that we will feel far less guilt and disappointment. We aren't here to be good or perfect. We are here as the antennas for signals from the future. We are here to be midwives to something that wants to be born. Good people have preceded us. They solved some problems and created others. As one wise teacher said, "You aren't here to be as good as possible. You are here to be as real as possible."

I know this sounds difficult, but let us try to be tolerant of intolerance. This is a hard one at times, but if you try the opposite -- showing a hard heart against those with hard hearts of their own -- all we've done is expand the problem. It's helpful (but often difficult) to remember that everyone is doing the best they can from their own level of consciousness. Trying to talk a terrorist out of his beliefs is like trying to persuade a lion to be a vegetarian. All we can realistically do is seek openings for higher awareness.

Let us resist the lure of dualities.

These include us versus them, civilized versus barbarians, good versus evil. The good, civilized people of Europe managed to kill millions of themselves, along with millions of "them." In reality we are all in the same boat of human conflict and confusion. Sometimes it helps to admit that the doctor is not far from being a patient.

Let's create an atmosphere of peace around ourselves. Imagine that we are like a mother whose children come home crying about fights at school. Would it be her job to soothe their wounds or to arm them for fighting back tomorrow? Simplistic as it may sound, the male principle of aggression can only be healed by the feminine principle of nurturing and love.

Mahatma Gandhi spoke the truth when he said "You must be the change you want to see in the world." We are units of consciousness, and the world is our projection. If there are enough units of peace consciousness and they connected with each other to reach critical mass, we could heal the world by healing ourselves.

A conscious change of heart is one of the most concrete things the world can ever see, a change of heart can change the world, whereas dutiful combative stances can only increase our agonies.

While caught up in a conflictive situation keep out there in the midst of it all doing what you do best:

Do not be discouraged, but know that there are people all over the world who support you, one day there will be so many that everyone will see peace.

Love is the only point of departure for intelligent action.

Reactionary activism based on blame and self-righteousness leads us to perpetual strife, as we accumulate vengeful and judgmental postures.

There is war and suffering in life, it has always been there, now in the present news from the Middle East, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Guatemala, Congo, Somalia, etc. But it is really everywhere, as we have forgotten who we really are, and have failed to exercise the charity of forgiveness of ourselves and others.

How can we overcome this strife? -By overcoming hatred-. How can we overcome hatred? -By releasing love-. How can we release love? -By growing in consciousness, which means consideration, forgiveness, understanding, -an awareness of our common being. And this applies to collective, social, family, and individual conflicts.

Lets not become impatient for concrete solutions alone.

As we engage in dialogue among ourselves to find the solutions to our immediate problems, some of us with warplanes and missiles flying overhead, we become truly desperate for concrete strategies, and concrete results.

But let's ask ourselves: did millions marching for peace across America and Europe before the Iraq war prevent it? Did the peace treaties negotiated by President Clinton between the Palestinians and Israelis achieve anything? Has all the negotiation and conflict resolution by responsible, intelligent, sincere diplomats affected the estimated 35 wars that are now going on simultaneously in the world? Has all the moral outrage prevented the ethnic cleansing and genocide in Sudan, Ethiopia, or Gujarat? Has the hundreds of billions of dollars of aid to developing nations overcome poverty?

We cannot simply pursue without reflection the same thing that didn't work

Maybe personal transformation (including the longing for personal transformation) can contribute towards a lasting and radical solution. Why don't we give peace a chance by engaging in something seemingly not so "concrete" like participating in the creation of peace consciousness?

We can and must do whatever is in our reach to put out the fires. Yes, let us bring the buckets of water and dig the trenches to contain the forest fires we have started, but if we do not stop smoking, we would not have addressed the root cause that gives continuous rise to the fire. So although we must raise our voices and coordinate our actions as our hearts demand to counteract conflagrations like the one in the Middle East and Iraq and put pressure on our leaders to act fast to bring peace, we must not diminish our first order of sustained priority, that of addressing the root cause of all our social and individual hassle and pain - our ignorance and the healing our own selfishness.

And this quest applies to all, the so called spiritual leaders, the seekers, the social workers, activists and everyone, for all, no matter what role we play, we all are longing for love and peace, for greater understanding.

Peace can only be created by those who are peaceful.

I cannot honesty claim that I have achieved peace of mind, but because I am at least trying to go beyond my personal melodrama, it is my hope that I may be capable of seeing things in perspective. I think longing for peace may itself be the beginning to bring about a new birth of awareness.

To be part of the gestation process is just as necessary as any other stage. As Rumi said in one of his poems, "Our longing and our helplessness are the way".

Let's meet as people who have nothing in common except our helplessness and our own peace of mind.

It's worth celebrating that we are not emotionally drawn into the concept of war as a "solution" when the rest of the world is. Maybe it is worthwhile to invite the world into a new era -- showing humanity the face of peace.

I have no doubt that millions will watch us and say, "That's me, too."

I do not want to convey a sense of pacifism.

Consciousness isn't passive. In itself it's always moving, changing, creating and affecting change. Activism that works for change on the surface often winds up being just a counterforce -- it's the opposite side of a tug of war.

The situation in the Middle East right now, for example is rife with action. It's rife with opposition. Is there a choice that didn't involve increasing tension? Of course, we all support humanitarian relief, peace negotiations, etc. this world has always been full of good, well-intentioned people who devote themselves to social change. And for many, this work is their personal path of evolution.

Yet the world remains a sinkhole of poverty, famine, war, crime, and despair. Goodness hasn't changed the situation; activism has ameliorated it, at best.

When doing more of the same thing doesn't work, I think it's time to consider the deeper wound, which is at the level of consciousness.

There is action to be taken in consciousness, even though it may be subtle action.

Love, Deepak

posted March 29, 2008 07:14 PM         

There's a lot of wisdom there, Mel.

For all of us.

posted March 29, 2008 08:31 PM         

You are such a spirit!! Love you!!

TINK,

Yeah... probably time to get a hobby... other than jumping down peoples throats...

There is a line, when people are reaching out for what, they may not even know, but we put our own egos and agendas into our responses. Sometimes, they will be helpful and guiding... sometimes, they are like forcing the other person to chug vinegar...

Glad you decided to watch from the sidelines. Some people are too curious and beautiful to give "lessons" to... especially when they are not asking for them..

Everyone has the right to vent and share, whatever it is they want to. We may have things we want to say, and sometimes feel we HAVE to say...

...I don't know... you just obviously don't know how to talk to Steve...

posted March 29, 2008 09:21 PM         

Something I've been chewing on lately.

I'm off to go deal with the homicidal people now,

posted March 30, 2008 10:04 AM         

BR,

posted March 30, 2008 10:39 AM         

Piousness and the path of love
are two different roads.
Love is the fire that burns both belief and non-belief.
Those who practice Love have neither religion nor caste.

~ Shaikh Abu Saeed Abil Kheir

Whether your destiny is glory or disgrace,
Purify yourself of hatred and love of self.
Polish your mirror; and that sublime Beauty
From the regions of mystery
Will flame out in your heart
As it did for the saints and prophets.
Then, with your heart on fire with that Splendor,
The secret of the Beloved will no longer be hidden.

~ Jami

… Let the beauty we love be what we do. There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground.

Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I'll meet you there.

When the soul lies down in the grass, the world is too full to talk about.
Ideas, language, even the phrase each other doesn't make any sense.

The breeze at dawn has secrets to tell you. Don't go back to sleep.
You must ask for what you really want. Don't go back to sleep.

… I would love to kiss you. The price of kissing is your life.
Now my loving is running toward my life shouting, What a bargain, let's buy it.

… They try to say what you are, spiritual or sexual?
They wonder about Solomon and all his wives.

… But we have ways within each other that will never be said by anyone.

Come to the orchard in Spring. There is light and wine, and sweethearts in the pomegranate flowers.

If you do not come, these do not matter. If you do come, these do not matter.

~ Rumi

If you drink wine, keep quiet about it:
a milk-drinker says nothing, so why should you?...

Until you throw your sword away, you'll not become a shield;
until you lay your crown aside, you'll not be fit to lead.

~ Sanai

After all my lust and dead living I can still live with you. You want me to. You fix and bring me food. You forget the way I've been.

posted March 30, 2008 10:54 AM         

~ Rumi

So long as we do not die to ourselves,
and so long as we identify with someone or something,
we shall never be free.
The spiritual way is not for those wrapped up in exterior life.

~ Attar

Strive to discover the mystery before life is taken from you.
If while living you fail to find yourself, to know yourself,
how will you be able to understand
the secret of your existence when you die?

~ Attar

… Whether you exist or not is indifferent to the working of God's power.

Everything is the work of God alone, -
and happy is the man that knows it!

~ Sanai

Who is man?
The reflection of the Eternal Light.

What is the world?
A wave on the Everlasting Sea.

How could the reflection be cut off from the Light?

How could the wave be separate from the Sea?

Know that this reflection and this wave are that very Light and Sea.

~ Jami

Listen for the stream
that tells you one thing.

Die on this bank.
Begin in me
the way of rivers with the sea.

~ Rumi

Don't speak of your suffering -- He is speaking.
Don't look for Him everywhere -- He's looking for you.

An ant's foot touches a leaf, He senses it;
A pebble shifts in a streambed, He knows it.

If there's a worm hidden deep in a rock,
He'll know its body, tinier than an atom,

The sound of its praise, its secret ecstasy --
All this He knows by divine knowing.

He has given the tiniest worm its food;
He has opened to you the Way of the Holy Ones.

~ Sanai

Your love has wrested me away from me.

~ Yunus Emre

I am He whom I love,
and He whom I love is I:
We are two spirits
dwelling in one body.
If thou seest me,
thou seest Him,
And if thou seest Him,
thou seest us both.