posted August 15, 2010 07:58 PM         

quote:

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i think depression is a sign of lack of faith and therefore of at least a temporary lowered vibration. he who KNOWS things are proceeding according to plan does not get depressed in the face of the world's darkness, but GALVANIZED to make a difference.

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Are you familiar with Mother Teresa?

Her charitable works? Her lack of faith?
The struggle for which lasted a lifetime?

I think the belief that "all is well",
is often a subtle ploy which, rather than
galvanize people to do good works, persuades
them that there is no need to do anything,
and, so, lulls them into a complacent stupor.

While this may not always be the case,
it is certainly the rule.

Faith is the opium of the masses.

quote:

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plus have you ever noticed the shite people utter when drunk? a clear clue that someone is not entirely "at home"

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I didn't mean drunk literally, but okay...

Have you heard the shite that many religious,
and desperately cheerful people utter
when they believe they're in the spirit?

You see my point.

quote:

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yet true happiness cannot reside alongside a wounded conscience. ignorance is bliss? perhaps but a truly happy person does not commit adultery, pride, stealth or any of the other "sins"...

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I agree.

Though I'm not speaking of true happiness,
but the counterfeit of it.

The kind of blind happiness which says,
"All you need is faith..
The rest will take care of itself."

There is a kind of superficial happiness
which is unable to admit it's own distress,
or its own lack of concern.

Much chaos arises out of such a state.

Meanwhile, there are many unhappy people
who take great pains to be good.

That is partly why they are unhappy.

"Who makes a beast of himself
gets rid of the pain of being a man."
~ Samuel Johnson

posted August 15, 2010 08:22 PM         

however, i do see what kat is saying too. a fake it till ya make it mentality. choosing to be happy..even if it isnt what you may feel right then and it will come. i actually argee with that to an extent too.

posted August 15, 2010 10:58 PM         

i do understand what you're getting at but that to me is not faith but complacency. another vast difference...faith is what keeps you going in the face of depressing circumstances, insurmountable odds, chaos, etc. and i don't mean going to work as usual, although that is part of it for a lot of people. what kept people alive in dachau? not their religion but their faith even if it was only in the ability to keep going another hour...

i realize some people need to get down in the gutter before they make the change to get them out. i just don't operate like that and don't think it is NECESSARY. and i think true depression is immoblizing, not inspiring. i believe people carry on DESPITE depression, not BECAUSE of it.

i have a 90 year old friend who recently has had a couple of strokes. after the first she was diagnosed as having dementia "after all, she's 89, what do you expect?" said the doctor. after the second her chart was studied and no one wants to go to the trouble of investigating someone who has been thus offhandedly diagnosed.

THIS woman is depressed. she wants to die. her daughter is GETTING depressed, having tried for the last several months to get her mother rediagnosed in the face of medical "wisdom". but it is up to her daughter to do the job because her mother cannot fight for herself in the condition she is in. but daughter will probably have to get ANGRY, a step above depressed, before she actually pushes through the wall. as i said, i believe true depression ennervates and sucks the inspiration out.

just sharing my thoughts, not trying to convince anyone of anything. i agree that religion is the opium of the masses. faith is what keeps you going THROUGH that wall. mother teresa may have questioned her faith but she acted it out and kept going through the wall.

the happiness that comes out of a bottle, pipe or pill - or box in the living room - is not happiness. it is one kind of ignorance, deliberate ignorance. and it leads to downward spirals usually, as does the less deliberate kind.

posted August 16, 2010 07:09 AM         

Okay, I see the distinction.

Yet, "all is proceeding to plan",
is dangerously close to "all is well".

If all is according to plan, then,
why/when do we get angry/motivated?

You raise some interesting issues,
but this thread wasn't intended to be
about happiness in general, or depression.

It is about the kinds of happiness
and the kinds of depression which correspond
to the clean or unclean, sensitive or insensitive
conscience.

So the question is not,
"how motivating is depression",
or "lack of faith", but,
"how motivating is guilt?"

If you reduce all guilt or depression
to a "lack of faith", that's one thing.
But I don't see it that way, so, for me,
faith is not the issue here.

I do think that HOPE would substitute nicely
for faith in the instances you raised, though.

Faith, to me, seems too self-assured,
and too likely to result in complacency.
Hope is something we can work with,
not merely depend on.

As for induced happiness, ignorance, etc...

It's easy enough to target specific,
socially unacceptable addictions and such,
but it's more difficult to recognize how
we intentionally lull ourselves with
just about everything, all day long.

We are all escapists. We are all human.

The internet is a drug.
A nice pair of socks is a drug, lol.
Shall I go on?

Also, the workability of a sore conscience,
or of a depression springing therefrom
was not my main focus.

You probably make some good points there,
and it may not be the most motivating state.

The only point I wanted to make,
and I believe I've succeeded in making it,
is that there is a form of depression,
and a form of guilt, which arises out of
a highly attuned conscience, or awareness
of personal responsibility; and a corresponding
"happiness", or complacency of conscience, which
springs from an undeveloped or perverted conscience.

I think it's unrealistic to reduce
all depression to a lack of faith.

Faith, like religion, can also be a drug
which we use to intentionally lull ourselves.

For me, the highest form of faith is one
which accepts everything that happens to us
as having come to us from God.

But this includes depression.

In other words, God may inspire in us
a lack of faith, when faith has become,
for us, a kind of crutch or drug.

Out of this lack of faith,
a higher form of faith can be born,
which sees the value of depression, guilt,
shame, groundlessness, uncertainty, etc.