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Author Topic:   Blessed Are The Poor: Fortune's Misfortunes
Valus
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posted August 16, 2010 06:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message
.

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starkiss1
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posted August 16, 2010 08:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for starkiss1     Edit/Delete Message
Valus, well done for researching on Tolstoy.
I was brought up on Tolstoy's War and Peace and Anna Karenina. I assume you are familiar with those tomes, since you are interested in Russian literature.
I also remember a famous Russian literal joke about Count Tolstoy, who proclaimed equality between himself and hundreds of peasants working on his fields.(See, he liked to work on his fields alongside his slaves when he wasn't busy writing).
In the mornings he felt like being equal to his peasants, he was woken up by a servant who would announce upon serving him breakfast:
"Your Highness, the plough you requested for today is ready for You and awaits You at the field."

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Valus
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posted August 16, 2010 09:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

I've had "love affairs" with a few authors. Tolstoy and Dostoevsky, for a while, split my affections between them, each holding a corner of my heart, and practically tearing me apart. They are so different, and yet not really so different when it comes to essentials. Chekhov and Leskov are also pretty lovable. I'm reading "A Hero of Our Time" by Lermontov now. Turgenev bored me. Pushkin is alright. I couldn't get into Gogol. I've barely flirted with a few of the others. That's the extent of my relationship with Russian lit. Let me know if you have any recommendations.

Tolstoy's "dark night of the soul" and subsequent religious conversion didn't begin until he was in his fifties, long after he had written "War and Peace", and as he was finishing "Anna Karenina". I think he almost abandoned the latter work. His early book, "Childhood, Boyhood, and Youth" is a favorite of mine, but what really endears me to him is the work he did in later life, when he had begun to focus seriously on ethical and spiritual matters. His later essays and short stories are wonderful, as well as his third (and last) novel, "Resurrection", which, I believe, he did not begin until he was in his eighties. An amazing man. He also attempted to give his land to the peasants who lived and worked on it, but they refused, suspecting him of trying to trick them. They couldn't believe it. There was a film made recently about the end of his life, called "The Last Station". It was really good.

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katatonic
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posted August 16, 2010 10:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
oops

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starkiss1
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posted August 17, 2010 05:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for starkiss1     Edit/Delete Message
Griboyedov Woe from Wit. Hardly a theatre in Russia doesn't have this play in their repertoire.

Alexander Ostrovsky
Plays. Again, every drama theatre will have one or two or five of those. My favourite is Groza( Thunderstorm).

Alexander Kuprin. A younger contemporary of Tolstoy.

Ivan Bunin, The Noble Prize Winner

My absolute favourite and tragic figure from the first half of the 20 century is Michael Bulgakov. He was dying under the Soviet regime, his life was made hell, he was refused emigration and died at 49.
The Master and Margarita
The Theatrical Novel (Le Roman Theatral)
The White Guard
The days of the Turbins
Black Snow
The Notebook of a Country Doctor

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Yin
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posted August 17, 2010 08:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Yin     Edit/Delete Message
Ohh, starkiss1, after all the animosity between us you tell me your favorite is Bulgakov!!!!!
The Master and Margarita is one of my very favorite books of ALL TIMES EVER!!!

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Yin
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posted August 17, 2010 08:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Yin     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
There is nothing to stop them from putting their lower will into action.

I often think about this. People in this country lead very isolated lives. Individualism is king. The individuals have no mechanism in place to "check in" with the group opinion. The stand alone. There IS nothing to stop them from putting their lower will into action.

quote:
Moreover, the freedom to gratify our lower nature often serves only to increase the desires of that lower nature, thereby exponentially compounding the problem. How often do we hear of celebrities, or high profile figures, who suffer from addictions? Addictions which are not checked by a lack of funds, but, which reach monstrous proportions? The most common of these would be consumerism, which results in superficiality and isolation; the two-fold experience of being out of touch with the struggles of "common" humanity, while being intimately acquainted with struggles which most do not understand. The worst part about this addiction is that it is one which our entire culture enables and even celebrates.

I so love this. OK, going back to reading the rest of the post.

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starkiss1
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posted August 17, 2010 09:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for starkiss1     Edit/Delete Message
edit

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katatonic
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posted August 17, 2010 10:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
well get in line girls i would bet my prize possession i got there first...to the master and margarita anyway...

"What would your good be doing if there were no evil, and what would the earth look like if shadows disappeared from it?" indeed

valus: i believe THIS is the right place for this thread. labors of love is about PROSPERING from doing what you love, neh? including a little surplus if you adhere to linda's p.o.v.

Then there is the matter of disillusionment. For the person who has never experienced wealth, the possibility of wealth still holds a promise of happiness. But the one who has money soon learns what a hollow consolation it is. When the more obvious needs are met, the more subtle, spiritual needs really begin to make themselves felt. The person who seemingly has everything is among the first to realize that, without a spiritual connection, they really have nothing - for this reason many wealthy people are actually a good deal further along on the spiritual path than we the less wealthy can grasp.

i believe that many people upon gaining NEW riches may let them go to their heads. after awhile the smarter ones settle down and take stock of their lives. i believe the PURSUIT of wealth can blind people seriously. but not that being wealthy is a hindrance to spirituality or human virtues.

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Valus
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posted August 18, 2010 03:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

I disagree.


---------------------


"The longer I live, the more I see that I am never wrong about anything,
and that all the pains I have so humbly taken to verify my notions
have only wasted my time." ~ George Bernard Shaw

"The man who goes alone can start today;
but he who travels with another must wait
till that other is ready." ~ Henry David Thoreau

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katatonic
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posted August 18, 2010 05:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
buddha was a prince. jesus was pretty well off too before they started their "ministries" for lack of a better term...and the whole sixties generation who pushed us all toward more spiritual consciousness were perhaps the best fed youngsters in living memory...and not just as regards food...

have you read peter mt shasta at all?

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Valus
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posted August 19, 2010 02:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

Jesus and Buddha, kat?

Rare types, indeed.

As for the sixties generation...

They were taking entheogens!

You just seem unforgiving,
and unwilling to understand
the difficulties people face.

As if there is no excuse
for being less than a saint,
or for succumbing to temptation
under any circumstances whatsoever.

For my part, I see so much difficulty,
I am amazed that anyone rises above it.

You expect so much from the human will,
what room do you leave for the grace of God?

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katatonic
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posted August 19, 2010 08:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
i'm sorry you have lost me. what makes you think i expect so much of the human will? nichiren buddhism is based on the assumption that a man who is not struggling to feed himself and family has more time to ponder the meaning of life. i myself have witnessed repeatedly people achieving their material desires only to discover there must be something more. this is a perfect vehicle for spiritual growth. what is harsh about that? WHILE STRIVING many give in to their lower natures yes.

it is precisely because material wealth doesn't bring true happiness that it is a path to spirituality. many of the 60s people, believe it or not, did NOT take much of ANYTHING! many only took one "trip". still they sought. they had the LUXURY of seeking! is that not an example of god's grace? and those who did take substances did so BECAUSE they were seeking....it was not so much for "recreation" as it might be today....i used those men as examples because they were not inspired by poverty but quite the opposite. not holding anyone up to them for comparison.

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Valus
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posted August 19, 2010 12:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

It's true that, when we're not bogged down with worldly duties, there is more time available for dialogue along deeper lines. That was the part of your response with which I am not in disagreement. However, it is only one factor, whereas I've listed numerous factors which indicate the possible benefits of poverty and pitfalls of wealth. Moreover, dialogue along deeper lines is not always conducive to liberation, as I've tried to indicate. Rather, it involves one in all sorts of complications, especially when liberty is acquired, not by being a pilgrim, but by being a hoarder. I've already taken time and effort to explain many of these. The grace of God -- at least, what I mean by that term, -- is not dependent on "the luxury of seeking". It is precisely the ability to make use of that luxury, or to open to God in the very midst of worldly affairs.

One trip is often all it takes to open the flood gates, kat, -- especially when there is an atmosphere of awakening going on all around you, with many people in your environment taking multiple trips and riding the wave of a cultural revolution. It was a reaction against the "Ozzie and Harriett" culture of denial that had remained unchallenged for so long. Also, against the war. Many were seeking, and opening to alternative ways of seeing, not to save their souls, but to save their lives!

And I don't think you can say they all took it because they were seeking. Many took it because it was the thing to do. Many wore flowers in their hair, marched for peace, and read a book on eastern spirituality only because it was what their culture was doing. In the same way, people get piercings and dye their hair and do things today which, twenty years ago, would have been considered rebellious, not because they are rebels, but because they are conformists! What happens, though, is that, despite their motivations, they begin to understand what it's really about.

I know a few people who have attempted to use entheogens for recreational purposes, and they are mostly disappointed, or, at least, surprised to find their expectations subverted. They don't do it often, because it doesn't work that way. Psychedelics don't give you what you want, but what you need. They are ruthless in revealing yourself to yourself. I've had plenty of experience here, and I can assure you that the folks who are just looking for a high are the ones who gravitate to alcohol and other hard drugs.

Maybe we are just very different.. but I often get the impression that you are simply being contrary. I see you do it with other people, too. You come on to their threads and ignore the validity of their points, and only focus on contradicting them or pointing out some marginal discrepancy. It's as if you're just trying to one-up them, in typical Leo fashion, unable to admit that they have something worthwhile to say. This is why I get frustrated with you. I can pile up useful and compassionate insights, and you'll just look for the one thing you can disagree with. Then you'll express yourself as if everything I've said is off-base and contradicted by your one little point. It's frustrating, to say the least.

But at least you are engaging the topic.

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katatonic
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posted August 19, 2010 01:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
thank you valus. i guess i should know better than to offer a different point of view here by now. if you come here just to expound YOUR point of view and anyone who begs to differ is one-upping you, well, end of conversation. sorry you see it that way.

however it seems to me your central point was that riches get in the way of spirituality and those things which are truly meaningful in life. i happen not to agree, though i DO agree that some people fall into the trap of materialism. i see it is better after all if i just DON"T engage your topics since you choose to see my input as intentionally irritating. sorry to bother you. as you were.

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Valus
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posted August 20, 2010 09:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

You're repeating yourself.

Just take a look around.
You're the only one here who I
consistently respond to in this way;
I accept criticisms and additions
from people who are less one-sided.
The evidence is all over the boards.

If you cannot respect my contributions,
please, stop taking advantage of them.
We both know you're elated to have me back,
posting thoughtful discussions on the boards.
Yet you continue to have some problem
admitting to yourself that I have very
valuable and insightful things to say.
I'm sorry you have this issue.

Of course, I could be wrong.

Maybe you really are too blind
to see the golden goose in your midst.

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Valus
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posted August 20, 2010 09:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

I'm done explaining this to you.

Take it up with The Master, kat.

quote:

But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, "Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

Matthew 19:22-24


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Yin
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posted August 20, 2010 10:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Yin     Edit/Delete Message
I think what Valus is trying to say (and please DO correct me if I'm wrong, Valus) is that giving when you have nothing counts more than giving when you have everything.
To me personally, it IS debatable whether you are more spiritual when poor rather than when rich. When rich - material possessions become the mental blocks, when poor - the same is true for misery as it diminishes one's spirit. Rising above misery is a true feat and few are capable of it.

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Valus
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posted August 20, 2010 11:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
I think what Valus is trying to say (and please DO correct me if I'm wrong, Valus) is that giving when you have nothing counts more than giving when you have everything.

That's not at all what I'm saying, Yin,
but it is related to the topic, and it's
definitely a valid and interesting point.

It corresponds with what I was saying
on Facebook this morning:

quote:

It is possible to earn an honest fortune, but not to keep one.
There is no such thing as a charitable millionaire.

"Bill Gates? Philanthropic multi-billionaire?"

Are you familiar with the poor old woman in the Gospels, who gave a small donation, but it was counted as greater than the larger donations of the rich? Bill Gates can afford to give a billion dollars without lifting a finger, and while still living like a king. On a spiritual and ethical level, it means very little. I don't count it as charity, but maybe a way of assuaging guilt. That much money never belongs to any individual, so he's only giving back what this imbalanced society has wrongly given to him and withheld from others, in my opinion.


On a related note:

It is no crime to steal a loaf of bread
when you are starving.

quote:
To me personally, it IS debatable whether you are more spiritual when poor rather than when rich.

For the sake of clarity,
I never claimed that one who is poor is more spiritual,
only that they are exposed to fewer temptations,
and that spiritual practice has less hindrances.

quote:
When rich - material possessions become the mental blocks, when poor - the same is true for misery as it diminishes one's spirit. Rising above misery is a true feat and few are capable of it.

I think that poverty can take a toll,
and it can make a person bitter, etc.,
but this is different from involving them
in situations where they are tempted to
bring destruction upon themselves.

The poor are crushed by the actions of others,
and the natural difficulty of surviving in the world,
while the rich are crushed by their own inability
to turn away from all the traps of temptation.

The former are struggling to get by,
the latter are struggling with temptation.

For this reason, wealth appears
to pose the greater spiritual danger.

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Yin
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posted August 20, 2010 11:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Yin     Edit/Delete Message
Wow, I was way off, huh?
Thank you for clarifying.

quote:
I think that poverty can take a toll,
and it can make a person bitter, etc.,
but this is different from involving them
in situations where they are tempted to
bring destruction upon themselves.

The poor are crushed by the actions of others,
and the natural difficulty of surviving in the world,
while the rich are crushed by their own inability
to turn away from all the traps of temptation.

The former are struggling to get by,
the latter are struggling with temptation.

For this reason, wealth appears
to pose the greater spiritual danger.


This is interesting ^.

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Valus
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posted August 20, 2010 11:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

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Valus
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posted August 20, 2010 11:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message
It's like...

Struggling for a free moment
in which to practice meditation
is not as dangerous as struggling
with the temptation to neglect
the opportunity to make use of
the free time one has to meditate.

Failing to acquire that time is not as harmful
and failing to make use of the time acquired.

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Yin
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posted August 20, 2010 11:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Yin     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
Struggling for a free moment
in which to practice meditation
is not as dangerous as struggling
with the temptation to neglect
the opportunity to make use of
the free time one has to meditate.

Love it.

BTW, I hate being poor. I'd do anything to not be poor ever again. "Poor" for me just means unable to take care of myself and it's not just about money.

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Valus
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posted August 20, 2010 11:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

Well, the world right now
is profoundly disorganized.

There's such a vast division
between haves and have-nots.

As it is, an abundance of free time
generally comes only to the wealthy.

And those who are not wealthy
are worked to the bone, like slaves.

It's a strange and superfluous situation.

We have the resources to create a world
in which people have an abundance of freedom
without an abundance of material excess.

The problem is that,
those who do not have the temptations
have hardly any time or energy to make
use of their spiritual potential, while
those who do have the time and energy
are overwhelmed with material excess,
and all the temptations it brings.

It is the insane emphasis in our culture
on "productivity", "variety", and so on,
which prevents us from being able to
appreciate the products of nature,
and the variety of the inner life.

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Yin
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posted August 20, 2010 11:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Yin     Edit/Delete Message
You know what, Valus? I am always a little taken aback that you articulate my thoughts so much better than I can. (I wonder whether it's my English or our Mercury-Venus conjunction)
So, I just wanted to say: "Well said!"

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