posted March 01, 2011 12:41 PM            

Do we control our lives?
To what extent is free-will applicable in our lives?
What about surrendering oneself to the Universe with a faith in its Goodness?
Is control an illusion?

Too many questions and not one clear thought...what do you say?

posted March 01, 2011 01:06 PM            

Example: It was my fate to defy my fate.

I personally do not like the idea of fate, As I hate to be boxed in.

But that could very much be the reality of things.

Fate is not a concept that is on my mind daily or even often.

Defiance in the face of fate, however is.

You see that is free will.

Free will can be fated for all mankind, so it is not that easy to separate the two.

Yin and Yang

Fate and Freewill

Frozenqueen, Most things in our existence revolves around two teams either working with or against each other, and sometimes doing both.

posted March 01, 2011 05:47 PM            

In an infinite universe, with infinite complexity, the illusion of free will is quite persistent

posted March 01, 2011 08:26 PM            

My concepts are hazy and it's complicated by the fact that I'm undergoing a brain-rewiring process that has rendered me temporarily dyslexic but I'll try to explain my side in this discussion and if any points are unclear I won't mind elaborating on them.

So,

I'll quote Master Oogway from Kung fu Panda(don't laugh, he's good)

quote:

---

Oogway: My friend, the panda will never fulfill his destiny, nor you yours until you let go of the illusion of control.
Shifu: Illusion?
Oogway: Yes.
[points at peach tree]
Oogway: Look at this tree, Shifu: I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time.
Shifu: But there are things we *can* control: I can control when the fruit will fall, I can control where to plant the seed: that is no illusion, Master!
Oogway: Ah, yes. But no matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Shifu: But a peach cannot defeat Tai Lung!
Oogway: Maybe it can, if you are willing to guide, to nurture it, to believe in it.
Shifu: But how? How? I need your help, master.
Oogway: No, you just need to believe. Promise me, Shifu, promise me you will believe.

---

This is what I mean when I refer to control that if you look at it, we don't control the events in our lives. What we CAN control is how we respond to those events. That according to me is our Free Will, to choose to act and not re-act to whatever the external circumstances may be.

You can now say in return that if for example, I'm driving a car and I see a man crossing the road and I'll definitely hit him if I don't brake but I choose not to brake because, what the heck, it's all fated then that is a very narrow view of Free Will and Fate. It is more complex than brake or not just as Karma is more complex than Eye for an Eye.

You don't have a soul, you are a Soul who has a 3D body.

We all are multidimensional beings and the Laws of the Universe are true on all dimensions, however by virtue of the differing densities, the Laws express themselves differently.

It's like the refraction of light, when light bends when it moves through a material of a different density because the denser material "slows" it down...it's why a straw appears bent when submerged in a glass of water. The light remains the same frequency but its speed changes.

posted March 01, 2011 10:20 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frozen Queen:
I have a rudimentary understanding of free will and fate that I have been refining with research, intuition and Kundalini but I'd like to get a good discussion on this and know what other Knowflakes on this forum feel.

My concepts are hazy and it's complicated by the fact that I'm undergoing a brain-rewiring process that has rendered me temporarily dyslexic but I'll try to explain my side in this discussion and if any points are unclear I won't mind elaborating on them.

So,

I'll quote Master Oogway from Kung fu Panda(don't laugh, he's good)

This is what I mean when I refer to control that if you look at it, we don't control the events in our lives. What we CAN control is how we respond to those events. That according to me is our Free Will, to choose to act and not re-act to whatever the external circumstances may be.

You can now say in return that if for example, I'm driving a car and I see a man crossing the road and I'll definitely hit him if I don't brake but I choose not to brake because, what the heck, it's all fated then that is a very narrow view of Free Will and Fate. It is more complex than brake or not just as Karma is more complex than Eye for an Eye.

You don't have a soul, you are a Soul who has a 3D body.

We all are multidimensional beings and the Laws of the Universe are true on all dimensions, however by virtue of the differing densities, the Laws express themselves differently.

It's like the refraction of light, when light bends when it moves through a material of a different density because the denser material "slows" it down...it's why a straw appears bent when submerged in a glass of water. The light remains the same frequency but its speed changes.

---

posted March 01, 2011 10:21 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cancer/Scorpio729:
Oogway does seem to have some great insights:
"One often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it."
"Quit, don't quit? Noodles, don't noodles? You are too concerned about what was and what will be. There is a saying: yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift. That is why it is called the "present."

---

posted March 02, 2011 07:00 AM            

Hence for me
Karma is the natural result of free will, reaction for your actions.
What is karma? Each action creates a reciprocal action - the reaction; therefore, karma is the result of those previous actions which have to be manifested accordingly.
Do you not remember? After all, God gave us the right of free will. But what kind of freedom it would have been if we had already dealt with what is predestined - with what will happen to us? Nothing like the predestined destiny does exist here - whether directly or indirectly, we are solely responsible for everything that happens to us.
It is similar to Newton’s law of ‘every action must have a reaction’.
We have free will from the very first incarnation, and consequently we earned karma.
Our main aim is to learn through experience to become better souls.

"What is called Destiny, is an order of outflow given to the Rulers (Gods) and the Elements, according to which order the Intelligences (Spirit-Egos) are changed by their descent into the Soul, and the Soul by its descent into the body".

posted March 02, 2011 08:14 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rajji:
For "they say, that wealth and poverty and sickness and health and death and all things not within our control are works of destiny" (Bibl. Cod. 223, p.221 - f).
This is Karma, most evidently, which does not preclude at all free-will.

Hence for me
Karma is the natural result of free will, reaction for your actions.
What is karma? Each action creates a reciprocal action - the reaction; therefore, karma is the result of those previous actions which have to be manifested accordingly.
Do you not remember? After all, God gave us the right of free will. But what kind of freedom it would have been if we had already dealt with what is predestined - with what will happen to us? Nothing like the predestined destiny does exist here - whether directly or indirectly, we are solely responsible for everything that happens to us.
It is similar to Newton’s law of ‘every action must have a reaction’.
We have free will from the very first incarnation, and consequently we earned karma.
Our main aim is to learn through experience to become better souls.

"What is called Destiny, is an order of outflow given to the Rulers (Gods) and the Elements, according to which order the Intelligences (Spirit-Egos) are changed by their descent into the Soul, and the Soul by its descent into the body".

However edgar cayce believed that there are also incidents and happenings which are
non-karmic in origin.

---

Natural Goodness
Natural Chaos (These two can get along)

Unnatural Goodness
Unnatural Chaos (These two are extremes, They either get along or try to kill each other)

Two Teams

__________________

The Natural Order
The Unnatural Order (These two can only get along with understanding and acceptance.)

Two Teams

See where I am going?

The teams are in everything we do.

They either get along, Do not get along, Or some type of mixture of each, It gets confusing with the latter.

To use a recent example:

Not my style, but it is relevant.

Twilight Movies

Team Edward
Team Jacob

posted March 02, 2011 08:37 AM            

People love competitions, You need teams for that.

Order would need to be maintained or it would get out of hand, just like politics lol.

Unnatural Goodness/Chaos would push the boundaries though.

While the Natural Goodness/Chaos maintains order and sanity.

Two teams (Highly Layered)

You go to a football game to see your favorite team, You have a favorite player as well.

That is an example of it already in place, just in sports.

It would also be a method of letting many different peoples understand what they are going to be getting so they can prepare and understand.

People understand teams naturally, with just a little bit of info added so they can choose which they like.

Even though you have a favorite football team, You still love football itself.

*Just replace football with whichever example fits you best.

*Replace comedy with whichever fits you best.

Example:

posted March 02, 2011 11:41 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Randall:
All of those things you mentioned are within our control, Raj.

---

*My Opinion Only.

That is our collective free will. We choose the direction and method.

We also must deal with the consequences of poor judgement, poor choices.

That is a back and forth process that leads to understanding by all sides.

Yin and Yang, yet again.

Randall, Honestly I am not trying to be a broken record, I am attempting to point out just how deep it goes.

Very.

posted March 02, 2011 04:06 PM            

Is what we call Fate a Choice on a higher density/dimension than this 3D world that we live upon??????

Intriguing

posted March 02, 2011 09:30 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frozen Queen:
Hmm...this is a musing on Soul Contracts.

Is what we call Fate a Choice on a higher density/dimension than this 3D world that we live upon??????

Intriguing

---

Tell me more about what you are thinking.

posted March 02, 2011 11:14 PM            

"Everyone is regarded as having a free choice as to in what measure he or she will follow his or her conscience or arrogance, these two having been appointed for each individual. The more one follows one's conscience, the more it brings one good results, and the more one follows one's arrogance, the more it brings one bad results.The initiative comes from God,but it demands a free response from man:
God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. the fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration".

Now im beginning to understand -The concept of free will and karma seems to be a PARADOX!
"Everything is foreseen; yet free will is given"
"The paradox is explained, but not resolved, by observing that God exists outside of time, and therefore, his knowledge of the future is exactly the same as his knowledge of the past and present. Just as his knowledge of the past does not interfere with man's free will, neither does his knowledge of the future "

"several major thinkers who resolve the issue by explicitly excluding human action from divine foreknowledge. "the decisions of man precede God's knowledge".
"God knows, beforehand, the choices open to each individual, but does not know which choice the individual, in his freedom, will make.Everything is observed (while - and no matter where - it happens), and (since the actor is unaware of being observed) free will is given ".

I think that However this belief in destiny is not necessarily believed to rule out the existence of free-will, as in some cases both free-will and destiny are believed to exist simultaneously!!

i can see views are getting contradicted but i personally believe in this-

The only real freedom consists in realizing the ultimate separateness of matter and self.
"Therefore we see at once that there cannot be any such thing as free-will; the very words are a contradiction, because will is what we know, and everything that we know is within our universe, and everything within our universe is moulded by conditions of time, space and causality. ... To acquire freedom we have to get beyond the limitations of this universe; it cannot be found here."
Swami Vivekananda

philosopher Chandrashekhara Bharati Swaminah puts it this way:

"Fate is past karma, free-will is present karma. Both are really one, that is, karma, though they may differ in the matter of time. There can be no conflict when they are really one. Fate, as I told you, is the resultant of the past exercise of your free-will. By exercising your free-will in the past, you brought on the resultant fate. By exercising your free-will in the present, I want you to wipe out your past record if it hurts you, or to add to it if you find it enjoyable. In any case, whether for acquiring more happiness or for reducing misery, you have to exercise your free-will in the present"

Hmmmm quite complex!

posted March 02, 2011 11:30 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mblake81:
Tell me more about what you are thinking.

---

Okay

A Soul agrees upon certain circumstances to incarnate into before entering this 3 Dimensional reality so that it may be given a chance to develop certain qualities, re-member its attributes in order for it to get back and merge with the True Creator.

As an example, a soul desiring to develop patience would choose to incarnate into circumstances requiring use of patience, where by the experience of the non-self the Soul would eventually come to understand the Self.

So, have I as a Soul chosen on a 4D level the circumstances that I would encounter upon 3D...all circumstances that I encounter so I may choose my Free Will to learn from them??

posted March 03, 2011 11:04 AM            

It is not predictable in any real sense.(Time travel is way beyond comprehension because it does not take in the negative aspect, You have seen the dangers of time travel in movies,books, yet people do not listen. Humanity will continue in what ever willed direction it wants. Time is an Order. Why does humanity feel the need to disturb this? Oh it is because it wants to understand. Please be cautious.)

It is like a book half written. You are on the last page every new day you experience.

What is written on the pages to come are indeed the choices we make in the present, but also the choices that we align our selves to be with in the future.

That is wisdom. Having enough sense to see or notice things coming down the pike, so to speak.

"present" karma is a good thing, but it is not a certain thing unless it has a direction.

That is what I mean by aligning yourself to the things you feel are true for your life.

To have a direction.

I have a self reasoned direction in the face of uncertainty. How do it keep it? It is what I like doing, so I do it. enough said.

------------------------

posted March 03, 2011 11:17 AM            

It is only mysterious to people who do not understand the concept of duality or paradox.

God and Man operate at the same time, or in Real Time to use something more appropriate.

New stories are written because the future is not written yet. Choices can be made, sometimes its hard, sometimes its not.

But remember to consider the consequences good and bad for your actions.

Here is a good test.

Do something and see if your conscience is clean, through and through, bones to bones.

Bad conscience = Bad karma.

Please do not spread it.

Side note:

Natural Chaos operates with just as clean a conscience as Natural Goodness.

Its the unnatural good/chaos that not only make life interesting, but sometimes scary.

Paradox, because you can not just have one. Having two children(or more) might be a good example, you can not choose between them without doing deep psyche damage, so by default you have both(or all) equally or else.

I base that on reality.

Anyone that argues is simply supporting one side over the other.

posted March 03, 2011 12:05 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rajji:
FQ since there are varying doctrines and schools of thought regarding this matter- as you can see in my post above it is broadly classified into two types.
hence I suppose you have to make a personal choice there again.
Choosing the one which best fits your Conscience.

---

Life is full of choices, Good ones help.

Bad ones, may be needed depending on the situation and what the solution is calling for.

It is not an exact science, And you more or less learn as you go.

I do not normally link country music, However I feel this song fits the post.

John Michael Montgomery, Life's a Dance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k4ujBGRGf8

When I was fourteen I was falling fast
For a blue eyed girl in my homeroom class
Trying to find the courage to ask her out
Was like trying to get oil from a waterspout
What she would have said I can't say
I never did ask and she moved away
But I learned something from my blue eyed girl
Sink or swim you gotta give it a whirl

Life's a dance you learn as you go
Sometimes you lead, sometimes you follow
Don't worry about what you don't know
Life's a dance you learn as you go

The longer I live the more I believe
You do have to give if you wanna recieve
There's a time to listen, a time to talk
And you might have to crawl even after you walk
Had sure things blow up in my face
Seen the longshot, win the race
Been knocked down by the slamming door
Picked myself up and came back for more

Life's a dance you learn as you go
Sometimes you lead, sometimes you follow
Don't worry about what you don't know
Life's a dance you learn as you go

Life's a dance you learn as you go
Sometimes you lead, sometimes you follow
Don't worry about what you don't know
Life's a dance you learn as you go
Life's a dance you learn as you go
Sometimes you lead, sometimes you follow
Don't worry about what you don't know
Life's a dance you learn as you go

Life's a dance
Life's a dance
Life's a dance
Take a chance on love
Life's a dance
You learn as you go

posted March 03, 2011 12:41 PM            

While we are all born within certain frameworks of wealth and health in which to begin life, we can choose what we do from that point on--the health we create for ourselves, the amount of money we attract, and yes, even death.