posted September 22, 2012 04:48 PM            

I'm throwing this theory into the mix because I feel its worth considering for anyone interested in exploring the various Christ/Myth/Man/Men situation. At its core it requires no understanding of the bible, and instead favors a rational approach.

I believe I did see a thread on here in regards to this movie that Im about to use as a jump starting point. Id imagine Lexx posted it, very much a theory she herself was a fan of if I'm not mistaken -nods-

I strongly recommend you check this movie out, while I certainly do not condone piracy I'm sure if one was so inclined you could stream it handy enough though lol...

[The Man From Earth]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0756683/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_from_Earth

He begins his story under the guise of a possible science-fiction story, but he eventually stops speaking in hypotheticals and begins answering questions from a first-person perspective. His colleagues refuse to believe his story. John continues his tale, stating that he was once a Sumerian for 2000 years, then a Babylonian under Hammurabi, then a disciple of Gautama Buddha. He claims to have known Christopher Columbus, Van Gogh (from which he apparently owns a painting as a gift from the artist himself), and other famous historical figures.

During the course of the conversation, John's colleagues question his story according to their specialties. For instance, Harry, the biologist, discusses the possibility of a human living for so long. Art, the archaeologist, questions John about events in prehistory; he exclaims that John's answers, though correct, could have come from any textbook, to which John points out the nature of knowledge, as he can only put his memories together with modern science after he learnt the new ideas with the rest of humanity.

--------

I do not wish to spoil the movie and climactic revelations therein for anyone, so I suggest if you haven't seen it, watch it and come back, because I am going to ruin the ending for you if you keep reading lol...

The discussion turns to the topic of religion. John mentions that he is not a follower of a particular religion; though he does not necessarily believe in an omnipotent God, he does not discount the possibility of such a being's existence. John then reluctantly reveals that in trying to bring Buddha's teachings to the west, he became the inspiration for the Jesus story and "the one called Jesus". After this shocking revelation, emotions in the room run high. Edith begins crying, and Gruber sternly demands that John end his tale and give closure by admitting it was all a hoax, threatening him with the possibility of locking him up for observation. John apologizes to everyone and tells them that it was all just a story.

----------------------

He runs through the whole Jesus connection and it becomes the movies focal point there after for a good 1/3 of it. The teachings in Galilee, being put to death, the crucifixion, and how he survived it using mediation techniques to feign death and eventually escape to India.

Its explained very well and my jaw fraking dropped when I saw how logical his Jesus argument measured up with my own understandings.

How this dovetails with my own inklings is that the man, possible even men used as the inspiration the for Christ/Jesus story, may very well have been highly learned eastern philosophy adepts whom traveled the various Roman Trade, & Silk Trade routes [Im anything but the first person to suggest this either, the theory has probably been floating around for 2000 years lol]. They stretch all the way from western Europe, through Egypt, into Judea, up to India and all the over to Han Dynasty China and in a more or less circular route during the time of "Christ".

[Silk Road & Roman Trade Routes]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road

Extending 4,000 miles (6,500 km), the Silk Road gets its name from the lucrative Chinese silk trade along it, which began during the Han Dynasty (206 BC – 220 AD). The central Asian sections of the trade routes were expanded around 114 BC by the Han dynasty,[1][not in citation given] largely through the missions and explorations of Zhang Qian,[2] but earlier trade routes across the continents already existed.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Radhanites.png

http://www.chinatouristmaps.com/china-maps/route-of-silk-road.html

[Roman Empire Maps]

http://www.bible-history.com/maps/roman_empire.html

Rome loved their fraking roads!

[Maps of Israel Time of Christ]

http://www.errantskeptics.org/TyreSidonMaps.htm

http://www.bible-history.com/maps/first-century-roads-israel.jpg

[I'm trying to put together the best maps of the era as regards all the trade routes, and paths through Judea. While I was writing this little essay I had several thousand windows open and I'm sure Ive lost a few maps betwixt, please add more, or tell me if the maps I'm using are not accurate]

http://www.thezensite.com/non_Zen/Was_Jesus_Buddhist.html

Judea, which was an important shipping center for trade between India and the West and the military gateway to invade Egypt via land. Both land and sea trade routes had run through Jerusalem for centuries. Overland routes extending to Persia and western India were especially active after Alexander's invasion of western India 360 years earlier; [before the time of Christ]

Ever wonder about the so called lost years? Lost my ass, the man was off making his fortune in far away lands lol [No I cant prove that]. Anyhow it is not and irrational notion that a man from deeply Hellenized Galilee at the time of Jesus, decided to be a merchant world/traveler in his 20's [Ever go back packing in college?] especially if he was already a somewhat naturally spiritual intuitive individual [That does not mean almighty son of God our lord and savior]. With quiet disdain for Judaism and Roman oppression at the time, it wouldn't be hard to understand him just up and leaving his probably large family of siblings and setting off on the Silk Roads/Trade Routes - Going east or west, it didn't matter.

At first he wouldn't even needed merchandise as he could have worked as an interpreter for the Caravans all along the way if he choose to, or perhaps in any number other possibilities he could have acquired enough money to start trading and worked from there, remember this guy is one smart industrious ******* lol...

Ok, so that's working from the supposition that the Jesus character is indeed from Galilee and then later in life returns to such, but thats NOT EVEN getting into the unbelievable amount of people who were already traveling in the Caravans who may have had the exact same mind set and where from all over Europe and Asia!

[The spread of Eastern Philosophy on the trade routes]
http://www.thezensite.com/non_Zen/Was_Jesus_Buddhist.html

Historical accounts aside, many textual analyses indicate striking similarities between what was said by Jesus and by Buddha and between the prophetic legend of Jesus and ancient Buddhist texts. The conclusion is that, although not identifying himself as a Buddhist for good reasons, Jesus spoke like a Buddhist. The similarities are so striking that, even if no historical evidence existed, we can suspect that Jesus studied Buddhist teachings and that the prophecy and legend of Jesus was derived from Buddhist stories.

After Alexander's eastern conquests, the great India ruler Ashoka, according to Will Durant's account, "sent Buddhist missionaries to all parts of India and Ceylon, even to Syria, Egypt and Greece."That remarkable missionary movement, beginning in 300 BCE, sent forth a succession of devoted men who spent their lives in spreading the faith of the Buddha over all parts of Asia." (2) Philo noted the presence of Buddhists in Alexandria, Egypt. (3)

My own personal subjective thought process is that the true teachings of Jesus/Yeshua/Issa, whoever was the progenitor of the Gospel of Thomas [But I'll get to that later]. Was healthy mix of Taoism (modernly: Daoism) , Buddhism and sure while I'm at it he was probably the first known Discordian hehe..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discordianism

Basically a Zen enlightened adept, nothing to do with the Judaic messiah situation, I'm talking about the man, not what I consider the Myth [Ill say something about the Mythic aspect later].

Moving backwards for a moment, putting the Man from Earth [which I hope you have watch btw] hypothesis back into play.

It is really not a leap in logic, or any kind of faith contemplation:

1: Our Galilee Native returning.
2: Various men from the Caravans passing through

Teaching the hapless Judaic sideliner's a thing or two from the eastern faiths, Id imagine it would have been mesmerizing to their oppressed Levitical minds, in conjunction with the hammers of Rome coming down around them lol.

So the movie in relation to Jesus finishes up with him escaping to India after feigning death [I know I seen threads about this on here from Lexx/fayte.m, anyone got the bumps handy?] Which is not an irrational notion, certainly not anymore of a leap in logic to suggest he was dead for 3 days and was risen again...

That brings one towards the Gospel of Thomas which may have possibly been scribed in India after the Crucifixion. (Yet you don't even have to have a Crucifixion to bring one of the "Jesus" men, or singular man back out of Judea, he could easily just be passing through on a trade run) - The Gospel of Thomas teachings are considered wrank heresy by our beloved Catholicism. Its very much in the spirit of the mystery teachings of the east with an Aesop's Fables twist!

I fraking love it!

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhsearch.html

Damnit, the Christ Myth aspect in relation the Christian-Judaisms is so huge in scope that there is no way I could do it justice here in its varying aspects, everything from the Flavian conspiracy, the Astro-Theology aspect. The varying roman councils that helped foster the God Man aspect with the further development of the Myth, to the co-opting of Marcionite texts! Grrrrr! I could go on for hours but Ive probably already driven you insaner than Cthulhu on acid.

There are researchers by the dozens whom have spent there entire lives showing the Biblical-Jesus dichotomy issues in clear logical arguments that Id simple butcher their great works if I tried to re-iterate their Hypothesis here. [If you truly care about the roots of the Christian Faith, you should be interested in getting ones feet wet, test your faith even lol, an adversary dares you. Do some rational, higher critical research]

My current favorite researcher is Robert M Prices work on Christ myth theory [Totally check him out, its an eye opener!] His showing of the Hellenized Greek novels at the time, and decades before "Christ" show amazing parallels in the development of the Jesus story in its varying aspects, hell just look at the Greek Homer! [And thats just a snippet aspect of the wider theory]

The mystery is so deep, perhaps the truth may never be known, but as the X-files said [The truth is out there]

[I can try to answer specific questions if you have them]

Although please accept that I myself am still looking into many layers of it yet untapped by my own brain, so In some cases Ill be saying... sry I really aint got a clue lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Price

The best part is, Robert is just as big a scholar when it comes to HP Lovecraft ROFL! [Yes I had to get that in there or Yog-Sothoth will have my ass for breakfast, nature of the beast]

I can post alot more about this very much [working theory], it aint bullet proof by a damn sight, and Im NOT INTERESTED in telling you that this is the truth.

I like I said, Im just throwing this theory into the mix!

posted September 22, 2012 04:50 PM            

emitres -- posted September 21, 2012 09:57 AM
Moderator
Posts: 462
From:
Registered: Aug 2010

first - love the movie... mentally and spritually love love the movie..

you raise many good points which i agree with so all i can offer is props to you... oh and one other little tidbit -

The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ by Levi

not necessarily completely accurate (channeled material which i am wary of) but does offer interesting alternatives to those "lost years" which does place Jesus in India...

and also The Propeht of the Dead Sea Scrolls by Upton Ewing... one of his assertions is that Christ is an office that others before have held, as will others in the future... Lexx has pointed out numerous times the Christ simply translates to annointed one...

keep throwing this stuff out there - it's reassuring to know that i'm not such a minority

---------------------------------------------

juniperb
Moderator

Posts: 4871
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009

Wonderful dissertation Lei..

posted September 22, 2012 04:50 PM            

This map [Using it as it just shows the routes in a clear image] is not from the time of "Christ", its about 500-800AD (And its the Judaic-Radhanites), but do not be so quick to dismiss such as a means to say there was no trading going on all along those routes previously. Please see the other maps Ive linked to, and even just look into the trade hypotheses more yourself!

@emitres:

quote:

---

Not necessarily completely accurate (channeled material which i am wary of) but does offer interesting alternatives to those "lost years" which does place Jesus in India

---

Cheers! :thumbsup:

Yea, something I really need to tighten up is the India connection after a possible teaching phase in Judea. Simply in the process of gathering more data :)

And yes, I do have a serious issue with changelings lol

@Juni: :starheart:

[I may add more later, maybe even some basic attempts at dispelling the "Christ-Myth"]

posted September 22, 2012 04:53 PM            

juniperb
Moderator

Posts: 4871
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009

quote:

---

I feel its worth considering for anyone interested in exploring the various Christ/Myth/Man/Men situation. At its core it requires no understanding of the bible, and instead favors a rational approach.

---

Question, is this to find the evidence the historical man Jesus existed or the Christ Consciousness/Universal consciousness exists with or with out the physcial man Jesus?

-----------------------------------------------------------

@Juni:

quote:

---

Originally posted by juniperb: Question, is this to find the evidence the historical man Jesus existed or the Christ Consciousness/Universal consciousness exists with or with out the physcial man Jesus?

---

Good question! I do not feel I can provide bullet proof evidence for any of that. I guess what I'm showing is just an alternative to the Biblical Jesus narrative, "[Man from EARTH]" [Yet a very rational model, in my opinion] and one must decide for themselves how that fits their own views on the matter?

Weigh all of the theory/circumstantial evidence pro & con, and just see what fits! Do not allow me or anyone else to say that there way is the only way!

While I'm "Pro-Logic" I'm not against the exploration of any theory :)

The universal consciousness aspect is simply subjective to how you feel about it. Can it be explored by rational means? To a point I would say yes as regards using methodologies that can allow one to explore realms of the universe at large.

After coming back [From Head Space] perhaps comparing notes with as scientific an approach as one could, constant repeating results may become apparent! Yet, all of that could still me diddly squat on an objective human level... sort of a paradox I suppose!

[See the work of Dr Rick Strassman]

Dr Strassman's studies aimed to investigate the effects of N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT), a powerful entheogen, or psychedelic, that he hypothesizes is produced by the human brain in the pineal gland. DMT is found naturally in various natural sources, and is related to human neurotransmitters such as serotonin and melatonin.

Ive read it, its pretty good :)

Is that sort of your own personal reference to what "Christ Consciousness" is?

----

In your direct inference to perhaps the "Anointed-Christ", I cannot not offer you any physical evidence to support such a claim, however I see it explored really well by Philp K Dick's novels:

[The Transmigration of Timothy Archer]
Book Cover

Set in the late 1960s and 1970s, the story describes the efforts of Episcopal Bishop Timothy Archer, who must cope with the theological and philosophical implications of the newly-discovered Gnostic Zadokite scroll fragments. The character of Bishop Archer is loosely based on the controversial, iconoclastic Episcopal Bishop James Pike, who in 1969 died of exposure while exploring the Judean Desert near the Dead Sea in the West Bank.

[VALIS]
Book Cover

VALIS is a 1981 science fiction novel by Philip K. Dick. The title is an acronym for Vast Active Living Intelligence System, Dick's gnostic vision of one aspect of God.

[Also much of that book contains huge portions of Philp's [Exegesis], which is like a Gnostic diatribe from a 20th century mind lol]

[Divine Invasion]

The Divine Invasion is a BSFA Award nominated[1] 1981 science fiction book by Philip K. Dick. It is the second book in the gnostic VALIS trilogy, and takes place in the indeterminate future, perhaps a century or more after VALIS. It was originally titled, "Valis Regained".

After the fall of Masada in 74 AD, God, or "Yah" is exiled from Earth and forced to take refuge in the CY30-CY30B star system. Meanwhile, the people of Earth are ruled by Belial, the spirit of darkness, but Yah is intent on reclaiming his creation.

-------------------

Phil went completely mad btw, perhaps he encountered God or some Gnostic mushroom lol...

posted September 22, 2012 04:55 PM            

:::Re-Posting lost replies:::

Juni and I where trying to get on the same page as regards the "Christ" situation.

I said:

---------------------------

@Juni: I think I need to state as clearly as I am able so that we can get "Christ" on the same page, how I feel about it in relation to the [Judaism/Biblical Model].

I completely reject it! Judaism simply infected, co-opted and pretty much destroyed the real teachings. Explore some of the inferences I alluded to in my Christ-Myth hypothesis. Much work has been done to show how such was achieved [By many great scholars] in an effort to gain control over what I feel you, & possible me, refer to as Gnostic-Christianity.

I go so far as to remove the "Christian" tag from the "Jesus hypothesis" I put forward. Id settle for Gnostic-Yeshuism (Although in reality I do not feel that was even his true identity, or if it was even one person [Due to the Caravan-situation]) and it may never be known, but Ill settle for such in reference here

Does that help at all?

posted September 22, 2012 04:58 PM            

PixieJane
Knowflake

Posts: 941
From: CA
Registered: Oct 2010

It's been about 12 years since I read about the world where Christianity arose, but I recall there were several cults very much like the one of Christ, it was a very difficult time and as is typical in such times cults come a dime a dozen and more than a few were like that of Christ, and at least a few showed definite Buddhist influence in their development. And even some of the philosophers of Jesus day said very similar things as Jesus, such as Gaius Musonius Rufus. There was nothing special about Jesus (unless you accept that he, unlike all the others, was uniquely divine).

Of course the very early Christians were even more factious than denominations today. Some of them were, unlike the militant one that rose up and became dominant, quite beautiful (but then others were even more insane). Of course the militant Christians who rose up didn't hesitate to bear false witness against their Christian rivals anymore than they hesitated to kill them (just goes to show the meek will inherit the Earth when everyone else is done with it, unless you take that saying literally and equate "inheriting the Earth" with "worm food" and also that many people prosper living by the sword rather than dying by it) so that it's very difficult to find out the details of these alternate versions (however, for all the libraries Christians burned in their fear of truth and light many books by and about these alternate Christians still survived and have shown that when churches "transcribed books before burning the original" willfully lied about their beliefs and the like). For more on that see Lost Christianities (and IIRC, they don't mention them all, just the ones that came first). Keep in mind that you should be able to get this book through your local library (even if you have to ILL it).

posted September 22, 2012 05:01 PM            

:::::::Re-Posting lost reply::::::::

Juni Said: (Something to this effect)

quote:

---

All we can do is look at how we arrived at our various beliefs and work from there?

---

---------------------

Yes I agree :)

Ill iterate my thought and logic process to show how I arrived at my own [Subjective Hypothesis] as regards the alternative to the [Judaic-Model].

I took a long hard look critical approach to the story that was being presented in both the Old, but then even more so in the New Testament.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Strauss
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_for_the_Historical_Jesus

I followed the work of as many different scholars and researchers as I could find, from people coming out of Fundie-Bible colleges, [Bart D. Ehrman (born 1955) is an American New Testament scholar] to more open minded thinkers such as Robert Price [Biblical Scholar], Acharya S ~ [Her work on Astro-Theology and dozens of other researchers in the same field)], to the really important work of Sociologist(s) such as Rodney Stark.

Stark has proposed in The Rise of Christianity that Christianity grew through gradual individual conversions via social networks of family, friends and colleagues. His main contribution, by comparing documented evidence of Christianity's spread in the Roman Empire with the history of the LDS church in the 19th and 20th centuries, was to illustrate that a sustained and continuous growth could lead to huge growth within 200 years. This use of exponential growth as a driver to explain the growth of the church without the need for mass conversions (deemed necessary by historians until then) is now widely accepted.

Stark has suggested that Christianity grew because it treated women better than pagan religions. He also suggested that making Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire weakened the faithfulness of the Christian community by bringing in people who did not really believe or had a weaker belief. This is consistent with Stark's published observations of contemporary religious movements, where once-successful faith movements gradually decline in fervor due to the free rider problem.

------

And legions of other researchers from various stand points for nearly 10 years continuously [Sill looking for more clues/theory(s) on the [True Picture]. Willing to smash my current model in favor of a better one!

All of such to my own mind screamed FOUL! Something was seriously fraked up with the Judaic Biblical Hypotheses. [But please, do not take my word for it! Look into all of this yourself and make up your own mind]

So after all of that Research what do I feel [Subjectively] are some of the core issues, and what the hell happened to Jesus?

Well I approach it like this: I see reason, purpose, and a logical need to control the teachings of people who if left unchecked, would be in danger of freeing humanity form thought constructs that only serve to enslave ones mind to a contrived version of the truth.

Cast oneself back to Judea 2000 years ago!

You have a deeply ingrained Judaic Religion/Philosophy under relatively-oppressive Roman Military and Governmental control coming into contact with... we shall say [working from the supposition of the Trade-Route/Eastern Adept Hypothesis] Gnostic-Yeshua!

Both the Judaic Levitical class and the Rome ruling class where well aware of the possible bogey man situation. Rome desperately wanted to gain an edge over the one aspect that would seal the deal as regards control! Human Spirituality, built on the back of a God Man and already established logistic and lengthy [Leviticus System] of bible belief [Judaic-Old-Testmant, backed by a Psychopathic Yahweh].

Its simply too good of an opportunity to miss! Understand that the Jews at the time were constantly on the look out for their next Messiah that would free them from Rome! Do you really think the Romans were not aware of this fact? Seriously!

So "Jesus" in my own mind really stems from a few core [yet obviously quite complex situations that one must explore for themselves]. He became an contrived amalgam of a few people.

[Just my Opinion]

One or more spiritual teachers at the time in Judea who fit into what the Jews would accept as a [Spiritual Messiah], and more [Pro-Revolutionary] characters such as Barabbas or Jesus Barabbas along with probably other yet unknowns of the same disposition.

Matthew refers to Barabbas only as a "notorious prisoner."[8] Mark and Luke further refer to Barabbas as one involved in a stasis, a riot.[9] John 18:40 refers to Barabbas as a lēstēs ("bandit"), "the word Josephus always employs when talking about Revolutionaries", Robert Eisenman observes.[10]

[Situation in Judea 2000 Years Ago]

[Spiritual Eastern Adept(s)] + [Pro-Revolutionary(s)] = [Judaic Messiah]

And one that Rome could eventually gain control over! [Can talk more about that later]

Obviously its hardly that simple or everyone would see such clearly, be brave enough to do some research for oneself :)

Although I'm more interested in discussing simply just [Trade Caravan] teachers than getting into a face off with a Christian Mob right now, so don't burn the witch just yet lol... [Not Again] lol

So all of that aside I was still left scratching my head over the [Spiritual Teacher] aspect, since I completely rejected the New Testament version of events on various grounds as I have previously laid out.

I could accept that there was a high probability that [YES] There was a man or men (maybe even women too) at the time of "Christ", teaching something that was having a pro-found effect on the region but perhaps in a very small dose. At least in compared to what one may arbitrarily refers to as the [Christian Movement] in the new testament, at least in the infancy stage obviously.

The only logical conclusion I can intellectually accept is the situation with the [Trade Routes].

Zen Adepts coming into contact with on the fence Jews in a Hellenized Galilee!

I do not feel the Christ-Myth could have been built on contrived Midrashic stories alone without a real and locally known [Judea] personage to layer such around. It just wouldn't fly as well as it has in my opinion!

So in conclusion, [YES] Jesus/Yeshua did exist in some form! But from my view point. [NOT] as you have been told from a Biblical Perspective

Please take some time to examine all of the hypothetical yet logical possibilities Ive put forward and make up your own mind where you yourself stand?

Doesn't really matter to me, Im just telling you how I view Jesus :)

posted September 22, 2012 05:02 PM            

While I reject the Biblical Jesus in its generally accepted form, I do not in anyway deny the possibility of a [TRUE] and [BRILLIANT] Spiritual Teacher from the very same era being used as the inspiration!

One of my own personal favorites books that deals with such teachers, a man in his 20s like my hypothesis [Man form Galilee] on the [Silk Routes] is the Character of "Santiago" from the wonderful book The Alchemist.

The Alchemist follows the journey of an Andalusian shepherd boy named Santiago. Santiago, believing a recurring dream to be prophetic, decides to travel to a gypsy in a nearby town to discover its meaning. She tells him that there is a treasure in the Pyramids in Egypt.

Early into his journey, he meets an old king, Melchizedek, who tells him to sell his sheep to travel to Egypt, and his Personal Legend: what he always wanted to accomplish in his life. And that "When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it." This is the core philosophy and motto of the book.

The Atmosphere and very spiritual setting of the Caravans as they crossed the Sahara Desert really comes through very viscerally in my mind!

Easy to see how being surrounded by so much spiritual awesomeness in the wider world, free from Judea and Rome, that when the possible [Man from Galilee] returns, wouldn't you too be compelled to try and share that with others?

posted September 23, 2012 07:55 AM            

quote:

---

The idea of God having a son and sending Him down to earth in a human body to save humanity, is somehow unfathomable to them.

---

Cheers for giving me a opportunity to post an excerpt of a letter from an Atheist to a Pious Theologian in the 1920's [Ofc They were also very good friends just discussing Religion]

[A letter on Religion, by HP Lovecraft]

So far I have seen nothing which could possibly give me the notion that cosmic force is the manifestation of a mind and will like my own infinitely magnified; a potent and purposeful consciousness which deals individually and directly with the: miserable denizens of a wretched little fly speck on the back door of a microscopic universe, and which singles this putrid excrescence out as the one spot whereto to send an only-begotten Son, whose mission is to redeem those accursed fly speck-inhabiting lice which we call human beings—bah!! Pardon the “bah!” I feel several “bahs!,” but out of courtesy I only say one. But it is all so very childish. I cannot help taking exception to a philosophy that would force this rubbish down my throat. “What have I against religion?” That is what I have against it!… ~ HPL

---

posted September 23, 2012 09:22 AM            

quote:

---

So in conclusion, [YES] Jesus/Yeshua did exist in some form! But from my view point. [NOT] as you have been told from a Biblical Perspective

---

That was a lot of reading to dig this gem out

posted September 23, 2012 09:34 AM            

Intelligence without Wisdom is an empty plate. let us feed all of our being
by using wisdom to temper our intelligence and touch our trinity; mind, heart and spirit.

posted September 23, 2012 09:49 AM            

Rofl yea, but its no fun reading the ending of a story first

Anyhow, Im not sure where you yourself stand as regards a [Biblical Jesus], versus [Man from Earth]!

Virgin Birth, Miracles and so forth!

[I can post little snippets as to why I discount much of that, but so much research has been done by others who I mentioned previously, It would simply be for the benefit of those who have never looked into, or thought of such before]

Clearly, or atleast Id hope so... Im not anyways inclined towards the [externalized salvation-ism] portrayed in the standard narrative. -nods-

I consider the Gospel of Thomas, the only teachings one need really be concerned with in relation to Gnostic-Yeshua, yet I cant imagine the current copies available being 100% accurate in a literary sense.

That being said, I'm also not so foolish as to say that nothing in the New Testament in relation to Yeshua is true, there was simply to many splinter groups as Pixie suggested, each one having snippets of the truth. Yet ultimately during the redaction and final compilations of what we are now left with as Gospels, I think its a real mess!

I hope Lexx comes back, she has a far better grasp of the form-criticism and what parts of the Gospels bare resemblance to the truer aspects of the narrative -nods-

[Just my opinion based of what I have been researching]

posted September 23, 2012 10:06 AM            

Too bad it will be misinterpreted

Yes, Thomas is the Mystical Christ speaking. But, so many are unwilling or unable to lay down the literalist interp.

BTW, lexx, in her former incarnation, and I have had many many stimulating debates on LL re the Mystical vs literal vs. no Christ!

posted September 23, 2012 10:40 AM            

quote:

---

So in conclusion, [YES] Jesus/Yeshua did exist in some form! But from my view point. [NOT] as you have been told from a Biblical Perspective

---

I concur. Then perhaps the question evolves into :
was he annointed, (Christed),
what is annointed (Christed)
and where does it transmit from.

posted September 23, 2012 10:40 AM            

quote:

---

Intelligence without Wisdom is an empty plate. let us feed all of our being
by using wisdom to temper our intelligence and touch our trinity; mind, heart and spirit.

---

I sincerely hope you do not think of me as a Cylon without a soul who is just logic obsessed lol. I very much try to embrace as your post suggested, all aspects of my being to there extreme degrees...

Ofc its often easier to show logic while writing hehe

quote:

---

BTW, lexx, in her former incarnation, and I have had many many stimulating debates on LL re the Mystical vs literal vs. no Christ!

---

I don't suppose you have links to those, Id simply like to read such myself -nods-

I just didn't have time to keep up with all of her posts on the matter back then

posted September 23, 2012 11:16 AM            

quote:

---

I concur. Then perhaps the question evolves into :
was he annointed, (Christed),
what is annointed (Christed)
and where does it transmit from.

---

Excellent Question!

This is why I went to such lengths to lay out a more rational-logical model at the beginning of this thread...

More so for anyone stuck in the Biblical-Paradigm, or anyone open to an alternative model but would by-pass Gnostic-Yeshua because of disdain towards the Bible/Church!

I know some, and can speculate to its nature, unfortunately I'm pretty tired right now, so will be back later and shall think on it in my absence

Lexx knows a hell of a lot more, as I imagine you do too

posted September 23, 2012 12:30 PM            

quote:

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I sincerely hope you do not think of me as a Cylon without a soul who is just logic obsessed lol. I very much try to embrace as your post suggested, all aspects of my being to there extreme degrees...

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Absolutely not You are open to an alternate study and belief

posted September 23, 2012 01:18 PM            

LK, you have an excellent taste in movies

This masterpiece was from one of the greatest short story writers of the 20th century, Jerome Bixby. Jerome is a "Gyaani", hence he wrote truths veiled in short stories.

posted September 23, 2012 07:02 PM            

Unfortunately this is where my back pack of semi-empirical evidence runs real fraking low lol...

Not going to disengage rational thought, but one much switch to inductive gears to explore the deeper esoterica of the situation

[Just a few random thoughts for now, pure speculation]

Im not completely up on all the various Gnostic-Texts, and differing hypotheses so feel free to jump in and throw any and all possibilities into the mix!

Alot of my reasoning is working from the Two-Source Cosmology approach, much of which I derive from the [Mad Genius] Philip K Dick, who in my opinion became infected/cross-bonded with what some people would call [Holy Spirit], although I much prefer Phil's interpolation of it in its more Greek sounding form [Homoplasmate or Plasmate]. Which happened after coming into contact with what one would equate to [Gnostic Goddess Sophia] or as Phil would infer... ZEBRA!

[Homoplasmate]
"A Dickian neologism describing a human being who has cross-bonded with an influx of living information bestowed or transmitted by a higher source of wisdom. See Plasmate "

[Plasmate]
Dick often regarded the plasmate as the living transmission of the Gnostic goddess Sophia."

[This can easily be tied to the Yeshua/Jesus situation but Ill get to that later]
http://deoxy.org/pkd_tcs.htm

TWO SOURCE COSMOGONY: The One was and was-not, combined, and desired to separate the was-not from the was. So it generated a diploid sac which contained, like an eggshell, a pair of twins, each an androgyny, spinning in opposite directions (the Yin and Yang of Taoism, with the One as the Tao). The plan of the One was that both twins would emerge into being (was-ness) simultaneously; however, motivated by a desire to be (which the One implanted in both twins), the counter-clockwise twin broke through the sac and separated prematurely; i.e. before full term. This was the dark or Yin twin. Therefore it was defective. At full term the wiser twin emerged. Each twin formed a unitary entelechy, a single living organism made of psyche and soma, still rotating in opposite directions to each other. The full term twin, called Form I by Parmenides, advanced correctly through its growth stages, but the prematurely born twin, called Form II, languished.

The next step in the One's plan was that the Two would become the Many, through their dialetic interaction. From them as hyperuniverses they projected a hologram-like interface, which is the pluriform universe we creatures inhabit. The two sources were to intermingle equally in maintaining our universe, but Form II continued to languish toward illness, madness and disorder. These aspects she projected into our universe.

It was the One's purpose for our hologramatic universe to serve as a teaching instrument by which a variety of new lives advanced until ultimately they would be isomorphic with the One. However, the decaying condition of hyperuniverse II introduced malfactors which damaged our hologramatic universe. This is the origin of entropy, undeserved suffering, chaos and death, as well as the Empire, the Black Iron Prison; in essence, the aborting of the proper health and growth of the life forms within the hologramatic universe. Also, the teaching function was grossly impaired, since only the signal from the hyperuniverse I was information-rich; that from II had become noise.

The psyche of hyperuniverse I sent a micro-form of itself into hyperuniverse II to attempt to heal it. The micro-form was apparent in our hologramatic universe as Jesus Christ/Gnostic-Yeshua. However, hyperuniverse II, being deranged, at once tormented, humiliated, rejected and finally killed the micro-form of the healing psyche of her healthy twin. After that, hyperuniverse II continued to decay into blind, mechanical, purposeless causal processes. It then became the task of Christ (more properly the Holy Spirit) to either rescue the life forms in the hologramatic universe, or abolish all influences on it emanating from II.

[I have some personal critique of his hypothesis, Ill try and re-iterate my own observations of it]

Phil was a huge proponent of the The Nag Hammadi Library texts : http://www.gnosis.org/library.html

[Sry, just need alittle break for now]

@iQ: Great point, I have a few things to say about that, will get back to it

posted September 23, 2012 07:31 PM            

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