posted March 26, 2011 01:45 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by LEXX:
As were the ministers, priests, and so forth I have talked with.

PS.
Adultery?
David did it.
Solomon had many wives.
Lot's daughters had sex with him and children.
Abraham married his sister and had sex with servant and knocked her up then threw her out.
Raped women were executed by their brothers/fathers.
The ugliness goes on and on and on.

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So, what happened? Were these people mislead?

Here's a website about this subject:

There are a lot of really disturbing things in the Old Testament. Genocide, infanticide, slavery, polygamy, objectification of women... all not only occurred but often appear to be sanctioned by God, even commanded. Consider this example:

This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys. (1st Sam 15:2-3)

Most likely you have heard sermons where the pastor would attempt to explain why God would command the slaughter of every "man and women, child and infant". One explanation often given is that God is holy and so could tolerate no "tainting" of Israel. But this begs the question: how is that any different from what the Nazi's said? The website rational Christianity says that the demonstrations of God's faithfulness and justice to Israel "gave them reason to trust God even when he commanded them to do something they might otherwise refuse to do". Again, this statement strikes me as extremely dangerous. Does that mean that when I sense that something goes against my conscience that I should do it anyway of I feel God telling me to? The potential for abuse here is staggering. But on the other hand, if we simply deny this part of the Bible are we not either saying that either God is unjust or that the Bible is unreliable?

In the historical novel "Silence", Shusaku Endo tells the story of a Jesuit missionary in seventeenth-century Japan who is faced with the dilemma of being forced between watching as his peasant flock was tortured and killed before his eyes, or to trample upon an image of Christ placed at his feet as a sign that he had denied Christ. The priest is torn in two between the love for his flock, and faithfulness to his Lord. His foot aches, when he hears Jesus speak to him,

"Trample, trample! It is to be trampled on by you that I am here."

When we are confronted with difficult passages in the Bible like to one above we are placed in a similar situation. On the one hand we are compelled to condemn the horrific idea of genocide. On the other we want to defend God's justice as well as the infallibility of the Bible. If we do not defend God here, are we not admitting that our God is unjust? We need to remember here the scandalous message of the cross: God came into the world and was falsely declared guilty and condemned on a cross for the sake of the ungodly. He did not seek to defend himself, but was condemned for the sake of the unrighteous. Jesus gave his life for his enemies, God died for the Amalekites just as much as he did for sinners like you and me. Would not that same God call us to care not for his reputation but for the lives of those (not innocent but beloved) lives? When we seek to protect an image (as the priest did) or a book, but in the process need to condone the slaughter of human life we forget that Christ is not found in a book or an icon, but in the least. When we defend the foreigner, the poor, the outcast, the enemy we are defending God, as Jesus says "as you have done it unto these...you have done it unto me".

posted March 26, 2011 01:48 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by LEXX:
Sadly most gloss over the horrors or worse, say it does not matter because it is the Old Testament.
Or we are not to question the LORD.
Or,
The LORD works in mysterious ways.
As even a little child I argued with clergy and got punished for asking questions.
Oh like, why did LORD order people to kill after he told them not too?
And what is a foreskin and why was David collecting them?
Well it is either a good book or not.
Take it all or toss it all out.

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posted March 26, 2011 01:52 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PlutoSquared:
So, what happened? Were these people mislead?

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posted March 26, 2011 02:08 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PlutoSquared:
I am honestly completely out of my league in even trying to explain that...

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As were the ministers, priests, and so forth I have talked with.

PS.
Adultery?
David did it.
Solomon had many wives.
Lot's daughters had sex with him and children.
Abraham married his sister and had sex with servant and knocked her up then threw her out.
Raped women were executed by their brothers/fathers.
The ugliness goes on and on and on.

______________________________

quote:

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Originally posted by PlutoSquared:
Yeah, that is rather horrific. No denying that. The old text is rather harsh.

What is the mainstream interpretation of that, anyways? Do any preachers address the violence in the Old Testament, at all?

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posted March 26, 2011 02:15 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PlutoSquared:
"And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God…

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

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quote:

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Originally posted by PlutoSquared:
Yeah, that is rather horrific. No denying that. The old text is rather harsh.

What is the mainstream interpretation of that, anyways? Do any preachers address the violence in the Old Testament, at all?

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posted March 26, 2011 02:18 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PlutoSquared:
Ok, it's getting late here, too. Come back when you have the interest and energy!

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posted March 26, 2011 02:23 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PlutoSquared:
BUMP...

If anyone has anything to add about the violence in the Old Testament... Please comment here

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posted March 26, 2011 05:13 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PlutoSquared:
I am sorry you've gone through so much. Sounds crazy.

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quote:

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Originally posted by PlutoSquared:
Maybe one day we'll colonize different planets, and we can spread ourselves out around the galaxy. Each solar system having a different set or principals, and then we can decide where we want to live...

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quote:

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Originally posted by PlutoSquared:
Probably.

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quote:

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Originally posted by PlutoSquared:
Nope. And, the thing that sucks about it is the feeling that we all got robbed of a wonderful experience in life...

Here we are in this most beautiful place on earth, in the middle of stars... and instead of being able to really enjoy it, we have to fight off constant crud from others...

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Indeed
Paradise is all around us and within us but this has become a dog eat dog world and too many are blinded to the paradise that already can be had for all on Earth.
Some of my feelings on love for humankind and the simple root, key, and message here in recent posts:

http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum21/HTML/000333.html
Sigh
But how long if ever will that love for all
come to be, from all to all?

You said:

quote:

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And, the thing that sucks about it is the feeling that we all got robbed of a wonderful experience in life...

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posted March 26, 2011 08:00 PM            

At 17 I began to study Christianity. This included (among other things) a Catholic book of saints that chilled me by praising sociopathic acts of saints, a book called The Dark Side of Christian History, and the Malleus Maleficarum. Those were scary enough.

But nothing was so scary as when I began to READ the Bible, especially the Old Testament. I had a Strong's Concordance to help with understanding the translation of it, so I know for example that Jeptha burned his daughters to death, he didn't "send them to a convent" (which they didn't even have back in those days) as some Christians like to say happened. And what was even worse is that St. Paul listed him as an example for all good Christians to follow!

I was so shocked by what I read that it was like a rampant paranoia overcome me. So many people BELIEVED this stuff and even liked stickers like, "God [ie, the Bible] says it, I believe it, that settles it." I was TERRIFIED. To imagine what it was like for me imagine that you were suddenly surrounded by the Jim Jones cult.

After a few weeks I calmed down as it sank in that most Christians were as I'd previously observed them and remain so. They weren't psycho killer rapists (at least not most of them anyway).

And what also sank in was how ignorant most Christians were about the Bible. They held the Bible on a high pedestal but only knew a handful of sanitized stories. So they had no idea what they were endorsing. A great many even only went to church on holidays and special occasions. I think in many cases Christians generally only open their Bible to find dates of anniversaries written within it.

Now it doesn't bother me anymore.

posted April 04, 2011 10:06 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by LEXX:
Moving my posts from Randall's thread.

As were the ministers, priests, and so forth I have talked with.

PS.
Adultery?
David did it.
Solomon had many wives.
Lot's daughters had sex with him and children.
Abraham married his sister and had sex with servant and knocked her up then threw her out.
Raped women were executed by their brothers/fathers.
The ugliness goes on and on and on.

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______________________________

quote:

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Originally posted by PlutoSquared:
Yeah, that is rather horrific. No denying that. The old text is rather harsh.

What is the mainstream interpretation of that, anyways? Do any preachers address the violence in the Old Testament, at all?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by LEXX:
Sadly most gloss over the horrors or worse, say it does not matter because it is the Old Testament.
Or we are not to question the LORD.
Or,
The LORD works in mysterious ways.
As even a little child I argued with clergy and got punished for asking questions.
Oh like, why did LORD order people to kill after he told them not to?
And what is a foreskin and why was David collecting them?
Well it is either a good book or not.
Take it all or toss it all out.

PS.
Adultery?
David did it.
Solomon had many wives.
Lot's daughters had sex with him and children.
Abraham married his sister and had sex with servant and knocked her up then threw her out.
Raped women were executed by their brothers/fathers.
The ugliness goes on and on and on.

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The reason these horrible things happened,Lexx, was because there was no law.
There are 3 Dispensations in the Bible.There are "ages",periods of time with different overriding themes,you could day.

posted April 04, 2011 12:47 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
The time period about which you were asking had NO law.
As such ,man was free to do and be what he was.
Man got so bad that God gave the law which happened with the 10 Commandments.
This was the beginning of the Age of the Law.
God gave the Law cuz man was so very,very,very evil in his deepest nature.
This evil happened when man got separated from God .
Man was never MEANT to be a separate being at all.
All separation is a result of this initial separation of man from God.
Ego and all the pain that comes from it is a direct result of this separation.

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posted April 04, 2011 01:21 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PlutoSquared:
That makes a lot of sense... so the violence of man was attributed to corrupted man, not the God's will? What about the verses in the old testament that seem to command people towards acts of violence? Was that a reflection of the people and not really what God said?

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Even as a little child these "wrong" things were very obvious to me.
It bewildered me then and still does,
that otherwise intelligent folks, and or at least adults;
do not realize these things or worse, deny or try to justify them.
This insane violent racist murderous "god" they believe to be loving and all powerful omnipotent, creator of the Universe......
like huh? Folks have got to be kidding or brainwashed.

posted April 04, 2011 01:49 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
There was NO law in the beginning,Lexx.When Cain murdered Abel, there was no law against it.
The law was put in at the time of the 10 Commandments with Moses.'
Prior to that,man could do his own thing.That is why it was so bad.

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posted April 04, 2011 01:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
Every person in the Bible was flawed except Joseph,who was a foreshadowing of Jesus.
Every Bible character was PRETTY flawed ,as a matter of fact.
All men a are flawed,Lexx, very,very flawed

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