posted June 11, 2012 09:33 AM            

"If you sow good, you reap good."

What's "good"? What's good in one religion is outright evil in another.

I looked it up on wikipedia, and wasn't surprised to learn that the various religions and sects that use the term "karma" disagree on the meaning of it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma

Some people believe that karma is dispensed by a supreme deity who decides what one's thoughts and actions deserve, others see it as a natural process, still others use the term in a strictly negative sense, representing all one's former bad actions.

But what is "bad"? Outside of religion, can one even classify actions into moral absolutes?

I used to think it was very simple, now the complexity overwhelms me. I'm tempted to reject the term "karma" as ambiguous to the point of being unworkable.

So I hereby declare it.

posted June 11, 2012 06:22 PM              

Ok if I do something messed up to you, will you let it go or will you get back at me?

Will you pass that information along to others, so that they know I did something awful and can be ready to not be taken advantage of, or will you say nothing?

Its not all about getting to dance around on fluffy clouds and playing harps, is it?

posted June 11, 2012 07:27 PM            

A similar example explained on on a 30-minute vid is linked to here at the YT trailer (it doesn't mention karma but what that woman goes through with help is very similar to what Luna went through spontaneously at 13 and is thus useful IMO at showing the details of how blind karma works and gets passed on to the next generation):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkO182Xo1go

However, a standard bit of western occultism (that includes the darker arts) say that if someone working black magic sends a spell or elemental or whatever at someone but the target has a stronger aura (represented in things like self-confidence, purity of conscience, etc) than the magician then the magic will rebound not only with the original force but also the psychic strength of the aura it rebounded from (thus more than twice as powerful). I think this might be true. And if so then Gardner had a good reason to declare the Threefold Law (getting back what you send out by 3x) besides making Wicca acceptable to the public, and that was to prevent some weak individuals from destroying themselves (the weak find curses and spells attacking others so much more attractive than the strong and they tend to target people who are, in the psychic sense at least, stronger than them). Still, if the magician is stronger (and there are rites and techniques to increase a magician's psychic strength before working magic to prevent backlash) then the black magic will work and won't necessarily cause harm to the one who worked such dark magic (though another danger is that in evoking destructive magic the magician has to experience it first, so that's another risk that has to be handled carefully, and sooner or later someone who depends on black magic is going to screw up).

posted June 11, 2012 09:53 PM            

Imagine before the big bang, creation, whatever. There was no time, no space, and therefor no objects or movement. Suddenly WHACK!, an action is made. And from that action results galaxies, causing stars, which cause planets, which cause solar systems, which play with gravity and temperature resulting in throbbing rhythmic natural forces, which lead to life, which leads to needing to eat and procreate, which leads to groups, which leads to language and tribes, which leads to societies and religions, which leads to need for resources, which leads to war, which leads to individuals sitting around pondering why we are here.... That's karma, simply stated: all events arise from (and are often related to) the actions of previous events. It can be seen in Newton's law of motion "To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction".

If you dip your wrist in a still pond and look closely, your pulse will cause the pond to stir. When you breathe or walk through air, though you can't see it, the air around you stirs. When you witness a disturbing event and then rush off to deal with something important, your mood is more on-edge than if you had not witnessed the event. Everything around you (from form and function to flavor) is the result of another action, and that action, the result of a previous, ad nauseum.

As you are aware, religion was created by a bunch of inquisitive folks who didn't own a TV. So they spent a lot of time looking at how the world works and applying those rules to personal and cosmic principals. The concept of religious karma serves two main purposes. 1) To inspire believers into working hard for salvation (If you are good and support religious institutions, the cosmos will reward you with a wealthy afterlife/next-life). And 2) To teach people compassion (act in the world the way you hope to be acted upon and the the world will respect you in return). Where we start to lose the truth of karma, is when we believe divine or external forces randomly curse people for their actions. A person who treats people like crap is destined to choke to death on a chicken McNugget without anyone to help them. That is their karma not because God hates them, but because having no friends to enjoy a meal with is the result of their actions. If two comets collide in deep space and their fragments destroy the earth, it would be a result of the collision, not because everyone on earth was bad. If however, we strip mine asteroids in the asteroid belt, their gravity becomes unstable, and an asteroid destroys earth.... that would be our karma.

I think you are absolutely correct... What is "good"? Good/Evil, Light/Dark, Yummy/Gross are all circumstantial and relative. In fact, they are relative to the conditions out of which they arose... which is the definition of Karma. (AhHa! see what I did there?)

posted June 11, 2012 10:30 PM            

without expectations for any results, or expectations of fruits of your labor.

Your highest "work", or actions....what you have to give to the world and people here.

This is what the path of Karma Yoga is about, for those who follow that one. It is a way to achieve perfection or union with God (=Yoga) through your work in the world or actions in it. And about serving selflessly.

So, at it's root, Karma means work, selfless service......what you are giving and putting out into the world.

posted June 14, 2012 08:00 AM            

Mblake: "Cause and effect" is a useful phrase, more understandable to many people than karma, but then it always seems to be up for interpretation: what action caused the effect? Sometimes it seems obvious: the kid ran away because his father whipped him. Sometimes, it's not so obvious: why did that innocent kid get whipped for spilling his milk?

Pixie Jane's first link addresses this pretty well...thank you, PixieJane.

I like this quote from that article:

quote:

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Buddha simply indicated that all the cruelties and injustices of the past are still active: their effects are always being felt. Similarly, he explained, all the good of the past, all the kindness and patience and love of decent people is also still being felt.

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If I take that broad, long-term view of cause and effect, I can come up with more possible interpretations of how x caused y. But at the end of the day, they are only interpretations and guesswork. Sometimes it may have been a secret circumstance of q causing y, but you just didn't know about q, so you were reading x. And maybe the result of y is actually another bunch of letters, but you only care about y, so you focus narrowly on that.

What fascinates me is that sometimes people break out of the "karmic cycle" or seem to break the pattern of cause and effect. They respond with love when one would have expected revenge. They become enlightened, and that seems to have a healing effect on their past, which changes the cause and effect dynamic: the initial action is no longer working on the same kind of person, so the recipient of the effect is not quite the originator of it. The sick, violent alcoholic who set a chain of events in motion is not the healed, changed man who reaped what was sown...or is he??

posted June 14, 2012 08:11 AM            

Brilliant reply, as always. Thank you.

quote:

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That's karma, simply stated: all events arise from (and are often related to) the actions of previous events.

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Your explanation gives me an image of time like a river, with the quality of life flowing and changing and rippling through it. It's a matter of quality, not good or bad necessarily.

quote:

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Good/Evil, Light/Dark, Yummy/Gross are all circumstantial and relative. In fact, they are relative to the conditions out of which they arose... which is the definition of Karma.

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Circumstantial & relative...yes, I see it that way.

posted June 14, 2012 08:26 AM            

quote:

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Karma translates into -- work, service, your duty & actions in the world

without expectations for any results, or expectations of fruits of your labor.

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I like this.

But I must be suffering a bout of "paralysis by overanalysis" lately, because then I have these questions:

If someone is born with a self-sacrificing demeanor, isn't that more an issue of grace than achievement? My birthday is associated with self-sacrifice, according to one popular astrology book. A lot of people born on my birthday find self-negation easy...to the point of it being a flaw.

At some point, self-preservation has to assert itself...I think we all have a duty to evolve, and sometimes our evolution will cause others pain ("How could you join a Buddhist temple, what will the neighbors think?!")

So I wrestle with this. Am I duty-bound, by the laws of karma or God or life, to serve myself as much as others?

I just wonder if there's a punishment in store for people who misgauge how much of themselves to sacrifice. Where it becomes self-harm.

If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you.
- Gospel of Thomas, verse 70.

Sometimes people really don't want to see what you have to bring forth. I could bring forth a knack for astrology, but my Christian friends will be appalled and disturbed. So it's a hard choice to make.

Thanks for the conversation, everyone.

posted June 14, 2012 12:07 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Xiiro,
Your explanation gives me an image of time like a river, with the quality of life flowing and changing and rippling through it. It's a matter of quality, not good or bad necessarily.

Circumstantial & relative...yes, I see it that way.

Even my interpretations are actions in themselves which arose from the past shape something in the future...it's all just a continuum, I guess that's the bottom line.

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posted June 14, 2012 02:31 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
isn't it kind of impolite to cast a spell on someone? What do you say to those kinds of objections?

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posted June 14, 2012 02:36 PM            

quote:

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Of course morals can be applied to the laws of karma, but so can auto repair. =)

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^ Hmmmmm....or motorcycle maintenance!

It's nice to contemplate thoughts as tangible "things"...of course the world has been totally remodeled by ideas, communication, and dream-work...all abstractions, more or less.

I'm starting to think that as water seeks its own level, so too with life: it just wants to live. Certain things or practices make life livelier: healthy food and surroundings, meditation, altruism, the love of companions.

To me, what enhances life, chi, prana, or whatever you like to call it, is good. And it lends itself to accumulation so that you can build up a storage of health, friends, wisdom. And if you are happy in these simple things, or happy making the world better for other people, sort of like Johnny Appleseed, you can enjoy your "karma" moment to moment until you die.

You are buoyed along that river of cause and effect by the quality of your spirit, I suppose.

p.s. If I'm so brilliant how come I formatted my post to you so badly at first?? I'm happy you found my reply within your quote.

posted June 15, 2012 01:28 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
^ Hmmmmm....or motorcycle maintenance!

It's nice to contemplate thoughts as tangible "things"...of course the world has been totally remodeled by ideas, communication, and dream-work...all abstractions, more or less.

I'm starting to think that as water seeks its own level, so too with life: it just wants to live. Certain things or practices make life livelier: healthy food and surroundings, meditation, altruism, the love of companions.

To me, what enhances life, chi, prana, or whatever you like to call it, is good. And it lends itself to accumulation so that you can build up a storage of health, friends, wisdom. And if you are happy in these simple things, or happy making the world better for other people, sort of like Johnny Appleseed, you can enjoy your "karma" moment to moment until you die.

You are buoyed along that river of cause and effect by the quality of your spirit, I suppose.

p.s. If I'm so brilliant how come I formatted my post to you so badly at first?? I'm happy you found my reply within your quote.

---

Your response reminds me of this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_Maintenance

There is a phrase which surfaces occasionally in my travels, "Life Lives". It always seems to brings with it the insight you have so eloquently described above. I feel as beings made-of-life, it is understandable that we would consider things with a life-promoting/preserving nature as "good" or "right". The principal that life left to its own devices, continues to grow "up" (or gets progressively life-y-er), is a common theme in alternative and holistic therapy. Dis-ease can be seen as emotional or energetic congestion of life's progressive flow, caused by poor diet and/or life decisions. Removal of that congestion allows the return of flow and the client steps back into the stream of progressive health.

In the case of reincarnation, our actions follow us even through death to shape the setting/theme of our next life. Learning to tone down the amount of karma one generates is stressed in some philosophies, as it is said to make exiting the river much less difficult. Good deeds can cause just as many karmic troubles as bad deeds. Feeding grain to starving people is a good deed, but the grain was grown on the back of a decimated rain forest and more mouths grow hungry every day. Which is the good choice: preserve the human race or the living habitat of countless plants and animals? Some would say instead of being buoyed along, one is violently tossed down the river of cause and effect by the unconsciousness of one's spirit.

posted June 15, 2012 10:25 AM            

quote:

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Some would say instead of being buoyed along, one is violently tossed down the river of cause and effect by the unconsciousness of one's spirit.

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Ha, I love it! I think I've gone down some pretty big waterfalls, too!

But there's enough room in our allegory for more than one type of sea-goer, right? There are the blind, hapless drifters and the enlightened few who do float along merrily.

Like this fellow, from the movie What the Bleep Do We Know, who convincingly claims to have extraordinary powers of intention: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVFDXFumDks

Smooth sailing

I suppose that as life seeks to live, consciousness naturally seeks ever greater consciousness, and so on to nirvana or whatever one chooses to call it.

I'm not sure of the relationship between life energy (chi) and enlightenment...what's your take on that? Because I had thought that the same circumstances that give rise to chi simultaneously give rise to consciousness...but I know there are doctrines arising from an apparent need to bind the wielders of potent chi to a moral code: their consciousness is presumed to not be a sufficient moral compass in itself.

So the QiGong master in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAAB0dbc3Es suffers when he puts his incredible chi on display and thereby violates his moral code.

Lesson there is, even super-charged masters of energy are still tethered to warnings related to karma. Ultimately, I would wager a guess that consciousness goes beyond chi and those who were far advanced in consciousness handed down the "safety rules" for developing one's karma a long time ago.

As for reincarnation, I admit that I can't take it seriously when so many people seem to be speaking of it more for novelty and entertainment purposes than anything more substantial. If I were talking to the Dalai Lama about reincarnation, I might put more stock into what was said.

I have recurring futuristic dreams, always about the same place. That's the most I have, from personal experience, lending to a suspicion that I might live again, and inhabit that dream world.

There I am a boring commoner just like here...maybe that means I will neither win nor lose the karma game in this lifetime. *shrug* That beats some other options!

Re: Pirsig's book, that's what I was alluding to, yes! I read most of it & derive my understanding of the word "quality" from him. Have you read it?

posted June 20, 2012 08:27 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Ha, I love it! I think I've gone down some pretty big waterfalls, too! ...... Cheers, always a pleasure talking with you.

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Sorry for the delay, it has taken me a while to collect my thoughts for a response. I'm not sure consciousness and life function similarly. Being a Sagittarian however, it would be untruthful of me to say I don't believe that all things are possible. In fact comments like "But there's enough room in our allegory for more than one type of sea-goer, right?" are the surest way to shut down a Sagittarius with a strong Libran Pluto HAha. I'm going to respond in the most Libran of fashions however and say, "Maybe yes, and maybe no". =D What if one becomes aware they are caught in a current, should they do their best to find a branch and make their way to the shore, or let the current lead them to the roaring waterfall downstream? I guess it all comes down to discovering where the river leads.

My personal opinion of the guy in this first video is that he exists in a dangerous place. All I saw was the clip in the link, so bear with me if later in the movie he elaborates. Does this guy also take responsibility for the starvation, brutality, corruption, death, and natural disasters in his world? If so, why is he focusing on manifesting surprise frappuccinos and happy Mondays for himself instead of tackling the cancerous tumor growing in the center of his magical creation? I give the guy props for training his brain to perceive the world with an intentional nature and for understanding that our minds play a part in the creation of the world. It sounds to me that all he is doing however, is cultivating a really fluffy and well groomed ego. He gets to walk around all day, pointing at the good things in life, and saying, "I totally just made that". If he truly believed he was the author of his creation, he should be running through the streets crying and apologizing to everyone. This gets back to the original topic, the karma of a person who only accepts the positive as valid, leaves a long trail of ignored negativity in their wake. Dualistic reality contains both good and bad and no matter how we arrange for good things to happen, the bad will always exist in contrast.

Life (from my perspective) is a commonality shared by all things. Life manifests as the progressing timeline of a thing's ability to maintain animated objecthood, and is therefor primarily associated with one's ability to maintain a biological (or conceptual) form/body/vehicle. It seems we primarily associate life with biological objects, but it would be ignorant to discount life's subtle applications toward other objects. When one refers to a car, article of clothing, an idea or a meme, we associate with the time between its manufacturing and disintegration like the lifespan of a biological object. Consciousness (on the other hand) is an object's capacity for awareness. From an anthropomorphic point of view, there are plenty of things we believe to be living without maintaining any semblance of consciousness (I personally feel that view is a sign of human stupidity, but that's a different topic). From here we drop into a long discussion about the continuation of consciousness after death. With that said, Life may Live, but I am not sure there are graded degrees of awareness. When you wake up in the morning, you may want to linger in your dreams, but until you force your self back into sleep, you remain aware that you are otherwise awake. Similarly in the midst of a long nightmare you may beg for escape, but only the act of waking up will remove you from the scene.

Chi/Qi represents the life energy within an object (as you indicated above), so it would be associated more with life rather than consciousness depending on one's personal beliefs. My opinion is that Consciousness (in terms of being awake) and Chi (in terms of that-which-animates-objects) are related but not specifically dependent on each other. A person can meditate their self to death, which is explained as awakening to the point of being able to shed the living body. One can also share chi, but not consciousness in our apparent world. I feel when awareness is healthy chi can flow and be cultivated with greater ease. When a person is not aware, their chi leaks out of them like a broken bucket and sprays in all sorts of directions, so they are likely to have low levels of chi. As you mentioned, there are doctrines all over which strive to contain or limit people. Im not educated enough on these topics to make make a valid comment (being a Sag I run from anything which threatens to contain me =), I can see where this could have a use though. For lack of a better example, chi is similar to "The Force" in Star Wars. It is an energy completely subject to its wielder and will not stop a person from using it however they see fit. I'm not sure how I feel about the QuiGong Master in the video. I believe examples of extraordinary human potential should not be hidden. I can understand his freak out when he caused harm to a person while showing off, but the guy steps on bugs almost every day of his life. I'm under the impression that cultures where QuiGong originated, have popular philosophies regarding the sacredness of all life, regardless of the vehicle. I am also skeptical because he seemed to be putting on a show. I'm not assuming his abilities are real or fake, I think you can tell a tree by its fruit though, and I have yet to meet a seasoned master who enjoys showing off. If he helps people then more power to him. I hope he has taught his students well enough to pass these gifts on if they are real.

Reincarnation is another wonky topic and though I agree that it has become hard to swallow, I have concluded that I'll just have to experience it in order to form a final opinion. There are a LOT of interesting ideas surrounding reincarnation and enlightenment. I was chastised by a monk for asking him how one could transcend their karma. And though I was speaking from a place of just-not-understanding, my misconceptions were born from years and years of bad/popular information. As animals we are instinctively equipped to run from harm and as "logical" animals (and I use the term loosely) we create all sorts of scenarios which we feel may insure us from harm, guarantee death will never catch us, or lead us to a place where pain does not exist. It is common to associate reincarnation with just riding the roller coaster again, or enlightenment with the Christian idea of heaven/achieving eternal bliss. The common term regarding enlightenment in Hindu and Buddhism is Nirvana, but nirvana doesn't mean bliss, or even infinite knowing. Nirvana means to be "blown out" or "extinguished" like one blows out a candle. Nirvana and enlightenment make no claims to bliss (contrary to popular belief), they refer to our human obsession with going/being/doing and the capacity within each of us to cease... There is no "I" in Buddhism (HAHa cheesy, I know). I lived in a monastery for several months and in the meditation hall, instead of a Buddha statue, there was a beautiful arrangement of flowers and a large circle on the wall above. Contained in the circle were the Vietnamese words "Vo Su" which mean "no business". The whole experience was spent unlearning everything I had ever read from everyone who ever made a buck from writing a New Age book. With Reincarnation, I can think of all sorts of ways why it works, but ultimately there is too much religious dogma and ritual surrounding something which, if real, is likely due to riding the current of our previous actions.

PS:
I think it's best to be a boring commoner, ordinary is the majority of extraordinary.

posted June 22, 2012 03:26 PM            

Thank you! I wish I could talk to you in person some time just to pick your brains faster.

This is a deep topic and I find myself ruminating over it a lot...I wrote a post this morning but lost interest in the questions I tried to saddle you with.

The big thing for me is, I have to get to a monastery myself, or meditate more...take matters into my own hands.

I feel awe around people who are more spiritually evolved and I just want to be like that. I'll just trust that it's the "good" way and will culminate in good things.

"No business" resonates with me beautifully and I thank you for it.

posted June 23, 2012 01:40 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Namaste Xiiro,...Cheers from a Cap sun, Libra Pluto
1/6/76

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I read your earlier post and was returning to answer. Please don't worry about asking questions, with Mars in Leo, I am a sucker for talking about myself HAha. I'm always glad to share my experiences, I feel strongly that each person's path is unique and hearing other peoples ideas/experiences helps to broaden the view of our own adventures. As long as you take everything I say with a grain of salt, you can ask whatever you like. =)

Monasteries are surprisingly easy to live at if you are prepared to face your self and can afford to stay there (generally there is a small fee and or work exchange because your meals, lodging, and daily schedule are all taken care of). If you currently live in Jersey, there is a sister monastery to the one I stayed at, relatively close to you. It is called Blue Cliff Monastery and it's located in New York. Here is their site: http://bluecliffmonastery.org/

I want to mention that staying at a monastery can be more challenging for women than men. This is not due to capability, but protocol. Some nuns are notorious for strictness and gender equality is a relatively "new" concept in many Buddhist traditions. Part of the reason I suggest Blue Cliff, is because the Plum Village tradition is a very progressive tradition with teachings tailored toward western practitioners. When I stayed at Deer Park Monastery (another in the Plum Village Tradition), my roommate was transgender and he was treated like anyone else. So please don't let that disclaimer inspire apprehension, your experience is likely to be a great one.

I'm glad that "no business" resonated with you. I think my earthy energies were touched by it too. With earthy planets living is a business, and facing that energy in myself was key in learning to resign (or at least use my vacation days). hehe

posted June 25, 2012 08:16 AM            

Hi again Xiiro!

Thanks so much for the information on monasteries. I'm touched that you took the time to explain. Now that you mention it, gender inequality does drive me bonkers, and I am not happy about female Buddhist monks having to shave their heads.

It'll be a long time before I get to a monastery..or ashram, if my research tells me that'd be more fitting for my interests. So I don't know where I'll be living then. I'm in PA but planning to move.

You sure you don't mind me interviewing you? It seems almost too good to be true!

Ok, so...

1) Can you explain the difference between what the monastery taught and what the New Age books taught?

2) What are your thoughts on the Law of Attraction? Is it selfish?

3) What, in your opinion, is the relationship between consciousness and karma?

Thank you so much!

PS "No business" does seem earthy to me, ie "let everything settle down."