posted August 19, 2012 11:40 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
RP...

Let's say you found a man you could marry and...gods forbid!...even have children with. Then a couple of men come to visit and yet you live in a town (gods knows why you'd be living there in the first place, but never mind that...) decide to gang rape the men and your husband offers up your little girls to the crowd to be gang raped instead of the men you've never even met before. Would you consider him righteous?

Let's say a king did find him righteous and killed all the men (and the women, and the children) but spared your family (and even praised your husband for offering your little girls to the mob). But then your husband offends him, so the king murders one or more of your children and has you raped in public. (If you'd like to see just one example of what I'm talking about, see 2 Samuel 12:11-18.)

Would you revere this king? Or call him a vile tyrant?

And if a vile tyrant, then why do you hold God to lower moral standards than a human being?

Serious question, this has always baffled me why people do this. If anyone can give me a sane reason to do this it will be you.

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hmm, are you driving at the account of Lot and his daughers?

That is Genesis, not Samuel, if you one is driving at David and Bathsheba, that is a different chapter and verse.

posted August 19, 2012 11:41 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Padre35:
Will point out that it was Christians who ended slavery in the West.

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Yes. But the Bible supports slavery. And the Southern Baptists originally came about emphasizing the Biblical justification for slavery.

Nevertheless, the fact that Christians EVENTUALLY came to see slavery as evil despite their Bible (along with many other aspects of the Bible they ignore) gives me hope that they'll one day ignore other aspects (such as the homophobic elements) as well.

posted August 19, 2012 11:41 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
RP...

Let's say you found a man you could marry and...gods forbid!...even have children with. Then a couple of men come to visit and yet you live in a town (gods knows why you'd be living there in the first place, but never mind that...) decide to gang rape the men and your husband offers up your little girls to the crowd to be gang raped instead of the men you've never even met before. Would you consider him righteous?

Let's say a king did find him righteous and killed all the men (and the women, and the children) but spared your family (and even praised your husband for offering your little girls to the mob). But then your husband offends him, so the king murders one or more of your children and has you raped in public. (If you'd like to see just one example of what I'm talking about, see 2 Samuel 12:11-18.)

Would you revere this king? Or call him a vile tyrant?

And if a vile tyrant, then why do you hold God to lower moral standards than a human being?

Serious question, this has always baffled me why people do this. If anyone can give me a sane reason to do this it will be you.

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hmm, are you driving at the account of Lot and his daughers?

That is Genesis, not Samuel, if you one is driving at David and Bathsheba, that is a different chapter and verse.

As for myself, I won't sugar coat that, to my view this is a tough world, sucks, is what it is.

posted August 19, 2012 11:44 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Yes. But the Bible supports slavery. And the Southern Baptists originally came about emphasizing the Biblical justification for slavery.

Nevertheless, the fact that Christians EVENTUALLY came to see slavery as evil despite their Bible (along with many other aspects of the Bible they ignore) gives me hope that they'll one day ignore other aspects (such as the homophobic elements) as well.

Hmm, wait, I already said that, why did I have to say it again?

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Sure, they were wrong, if one reads that Bible one also learns that a slave was to be owned for 7 yrs then decide if they wanted to stay in their role as a slave for their owners or leave the household.

If they decided to stay, they were to have their ears pierced on the doorpost of the house.

The bible actually forbids the sort of intergnerational slavery that happened in the US, 7 yrs and they were free, or every 50 yrs there was to be a Jubilee.

A canceling of all debts and restoration of all property lines prior to the 50 yr period

Guess what never happened?

posted August 19, 2012 11:44 PM            

I get a little frustrated that whenever I try to have an intelligent conversation with a believer that it gets sidetracked with ridiculous "points of order" and all, it happens so often I come to think of it as being an intentional tactic to avoid the question.

posted August 19, 2012 11:48 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Oh, for crying out loud!

OF COURSE Lot's daughters is in Genesis. I'm trying to give a simple concept of how morally depraved God is without adding so much that the actual point gets lost. Lot is obvious, the other stories may not be.

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God never told him to do that, he did it on his own accord out of fear.

posted August 19, 2012 11:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Padre35:
[B] God never told him to do that, he did it on his own accord out of fear

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See, I just can't understand the concept that had the mob raped Lot's virgin daughters (who may not have even been teens yet given how quickly a girl lost her virginity to her owner back then) is somehow "hospitable" and the Bible seems clear to me (just as it does to so many Christians) that if the men had raped the little girls instead of demanding men to rape then the city would've been spared.

posted August 19, 2012 11:53 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Padre35:
As for the intelligent conversation, first of all if one is going to do so then quote the Bible accurately, one is perhaps being intellectually dishonest to drop something into a discussion relying on a the Bible without actually, you know, relying on the Bible and what is actually being said.

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I am quoting the Bible accurately. And, unlike you, I'm actually taking the context into account.

posted August 20, 2012 12:09 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
See, I just can't understand the concept that had the mob raped Lot's virgin daughters (who may not have even been teens yet given how quickly a girl lost her virginity to her owner back then) is somehow "hospitable" and the Bible seems clear to me (just as it does to so many Christians) that if the men had raped the little girls instead of demanding men to rape then the city would've been spared.

Granted, the angels don't explicitly state this, but they don't admonish him for his vile offer nor do they punish him with the rest so they do IMPLICITLY express this. And thus, by extension, does God (who also orders rape of women elsewhere and approves of other horrid practices in obtaining wives).

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The messengers were there to observe.

Secondly, really?

Uhm, if some soldier did take a female slave and knew her..they were obliged to either marry them or release them.

Keep in mind in that era of time such was not unusual, actually the norm was far worse.

posted August 20, 2012 12:10 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
I am quoting the Bible accurately. And, unlike you, I'm actually taking the context into account.

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Do tell.

"OF COURSE Lot's daughters is in Genesis. I'm trying to give a simple concept of how morally depraved God is without adding so much that the actual point gets lost. Lot is obvious, the other stories may not be."

posted August 20, 2012 07:54 AM            

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posted August 20, 2012 02:58 PM            

-Same scenario with the men beating on the door
-Concubine raped and killed
-War of Annihilation waged including wiping out women and children

THEN, kidnapping 300 random women to marry the remainder of Benjamin.

For my pov, what an utterly brutal time to live, however it was one of the few times Kingless Israel did such things.

posted August 20, 2012 06:29 PM            

quote:

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They are people speaking about God, as they see God. They are people speaking about God's word

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Yes I can accept that, but the general view point is from a spiritual perspective, is that the "Holy Spirit" inspired the writer to write such... so seriously, WTF!

Now if you say, well no It didn't... then ask yourself, logically how can you possibly tell what parts represent the Godly inspired authorship, and whats parts are just written from the view point of a human writer. Its a Pandora's Box that you cannot close, and pretty much makes the bible completely useless as any kind of a divinely inspired codex of a God

You are left in a situation where "The Bible" must simply be viewed as any other book out there, and anything but a paragon of morality and divinity

Is it devoid of any spiritual usefulness? No, like all other books, what the reader gets from it from a spiritual perspective is up to the individual

However you don't see Harry Potter folks going around starting whole religions/cults based off of the story's because they know its "fiction". Sure it might be fun to entertain the prospect for a while (I have no doubt their are HP/Cults out there), but to trying to convert half the planet to an Institutionalized Religion and latch ones spiritual tentacles around the world over a work of probable "complete fiction" is morally and socially destructive, and the real Biblical Atrocity

iQ has some really good points on the nature of "The God" in question, I'm going to take a shot at following up on those later, just busy at the moment -nods-

posted August 20, 2012 11:49 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lei_Kuei:
then ask yourself, logically how can you possibly tell what parts represent the Godly inspired authorship, and whats parts are just written from the view point of a human writer. Its a Pandora's Box that you cannot close, and pretty much makes the bible completely useless as any kind of a divinely inspired codex of a God

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This concept is why I recommended The Harlot By the Side of the Road earlier in this thread. It's been many years since I read it but as best I recall his claim was that the Bible was an imperfect understanding of God by man. That is, stories of Sodom or the stuff in Judges and the like weren't because God approved, but because humans came to the belief that because these things happened that therefore God approved (or brought about the calamity, the rapes and child murders, etc, or to quote RP that "God was mad" and thus did it on purpose) when actually that was caused by human evil or natural calamity. To use an example, many Christians used to believe the sun orbited the earth because of a Bible verse (and thus early scientists that said otherwise were punished and even killed for heresy and blaspheming the Bible), but this (according to the author) was actually a human perspective that "tainted" the Bible as God was beyond human understanding and thus beyond the ability of the Bible to accurately portray in a direct manner. Obviously if such a view is distressing then one should not read the book (though he is a Christian). But for me personally it was an answer I could find understandable and I also don't worry about Christians like him.

quote:

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Originally posted by Lei_Kuei:
However you don't see Harry Potter folks going around starting whole religions/cults based off of the story's because they know its "fiction"

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It's actually amusing to me how many Christians talk about how dark it is when it's extremely light reading compared to the Bible (and promoted better morality, too, IMO). It got especially surreal when like one lady so determined to get Harry Potter removed from all libraries as it "taught witchcraft and led to Satan worship" said "kids [unlike herself] can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality." If anyone pointed out the irony of her statement then it wasn't reported on.

quote:

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Originally posted by Lei_Kuei:
but to trying to convert half the planet to an Institutionalized Religion and latch ones spiritual tentacles around the world over a work of probable "complete fiction" is morally and socially destructive, and the real Biblical Atrocity

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What is really disturbing to me is when I think of books like Obedience to Authority, where many people (a clear majority) were not only willing to torture (and presumably worse) if commanded to by an authority figure, but then always find some desperate excuse or way to blame others for their horrendous actions (and because they were “just following orders”).

I find those findings backed by many real life examples, like that hoax where a prank caller gets employees stripped searched and even sexually assaulted because the manager (who may even be a woman, and I've only heard of female employees being the victim of this prank) simply accepted that the person on the phone was a cop, and thus such vile actions were not only acceptable but REQUIRED (and could even feel guilt at not carrying out such vile acts)...and then in some cases the subsequent criminal charges against these managers were dismissed because “the manager thought it was a cop (and you're supposed to obey cops)."

posted August 21, 2012 12:02 AM            

Always fascinating insights

"Obedience to Authority", sounds like a good book, all be it a fraked up read -nods-

posted August 23, 2012 08:18 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Padre35:

Feel the need to add this:

All of the atrocities, in their various forms, still Christ is there to reconcile God to Mankind in both Love and Grace.

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Yes, there will only be peace in the Millenium where the lion will lay down with the lamb. This earth is under the curse( from man's disobedience) This earth is fraught with violence and other bad things, of all sorts.

This will only change when there is a new heaven and a new earth in the Millenial Age.

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posted August 26, 2012 07:49 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Padre35:

Feel the need to add this:

All of the atrocities, in their various forms, still Christ is there to reconcile God to Mankind in both Love and Grace.

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Totally. Man has a bad part of his human nature. Just look around and you can see that

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal