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Author Topic:   Bible Atrocities
Lei_Kuei
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posted August 17, 2012 07:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lei_Kuei     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.html

NOTE: These lists are meant to identify possible problems in the Bible, especially problems which are inherent in a literalist or fundamentalist interpretation. Some of the selections may be resolvable on certain interpretations--after all, almost any problem can be eliminated with suitable rationalizations--but it is the reader's obligation to test this possibility and to decide whether it really makes appropriate sense to do this. To help readers in this task, these lists are aimed at presenting examples where problems may exist given certain allowable (but not always obligatory) assumptions. It should be kept in mind that a perfect and omnipotent God could, should, and likely would see to it that such problems did not exist in a book which s/he had inspired. It should also be kept in mind that what is and is not an atrocity is to some extent a matter of opinion. You are entitled to disagree with the author that these are, in fact, atrocities.

Note: In the Bible, words having to do with Killing significantly outnumber words having to do with Love

GE 3:1-7, 22-24 God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent (the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures). They eat of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil," thereby incurring death for themselves and all of mankind for ever after. God prevents them from regaining eternal life, by placing a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life." (Note: God could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" in the first place and would thereby have prevented the Fall of man, the necessity for Salvation, the Crucifixion of Jesus, etc.)

GE 4:2-8 God's arbitrary preference of Abel's offering to that of Cain's provokes Cain to commit the first biblically recorded murder and kill his brother Abel.

GE 34:13-29 The Israelites kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of their village, taking as plunder their wealth, cattle, wives and children.

GE 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah's family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history.

GE 19:26 God personally sees to it that Lot's wife is turned to a pillar of salt (for having looked behind her while fleeing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah).

GE 38:9 "... whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked ..., so the Lord put him to death."

EX 2:12 Moses murders an Egyptian.

EX 7:1, 14, 9:14-16, 10:1-2, 11:7 The purpose of the devastation that God brings to the Egyptians is as follows:
to show that he is Lord;
to show that there is none like him in all the earth;
to show his great power;
to cause his name to be declared throughout the earth;
to give the Israelites something to talk about with their children;
to show that he makes a distinction between Israel and Egypt.

EX 9:22-25 A plague of hail from the Lord strikes down everything in the fields of Egypt both man and beast except in Goshen where the Israelites reside.

EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt.

EX 17:13 With the Lord's approval, Joshua mows down Amalek and his people.

EX 21:20-21 With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly.

EX 32:27 "Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.

EX 32:27-29 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay 3000 men.

LE 26:7-8 The Lord promises the Israelites that, if they are obedient, their enemies will "fall before your sword."

LE 26:22 "I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children."

LE 26:29, DT 28:53, JE 19:9, EZ 5:8-10 As a punishment, the Lord will cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and fathers and friends.

LE 27:29 Human sacrifice is condoned. (Note: An example is given in JG 11:30-39)

NU 11:33 The Lord smites the people with a great plague.

NU 12:1-10 God makes Miriam a leper for seven days because she and Aaron had spoken against Moses.

NU 15:32-36 A Sabbath breaker (who had gathered sticks for a fire) is stoned to death at the Lord's command.

NU 16:27-33 The Lord causes the earth to open and swallow up the men and their households (including wives and children) because the men had been rebellious.

NU 16:35 A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men.

NU 16:49 A plague from the Lord kills 14,700 people.

NU 21:3 The Israelites utterly destroy the Canaanites.

NU 21:6 Fiery serpents, sent by the Lord, kill many Israelites.

NU 21:35 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay Og "... and his sons and all his people, until there was not one survivor left ...."

NU 25:4 (KJV) "And the Lord said unto Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun ...."

NU 25:8 "He went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly."

NU 25:9 24,000 people die in a plague from the Lord.

NU 31:9 The Israelites capture Midianite women and children.

NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had known men? One can only speculate.)

NU 31:31-40 32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty. Thirty-two are set aside (to be sacrificed?) as a tribute for the Lord.

DT 2:33-34 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon.

DT 3:6 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Og.

DT 7:2 The Lord commands the Israelites to "utterly destroy" and shown "no mercy" to those whom he gives them for defeat.

DT 20:13-14 "When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves."

DT 20:16 "In the cities of the nations the Lord is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes."

DT 21:10-13 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites are allowed to take "beautiful women" from the enemy camp to be their captive wives. If, after sexual relations, the husband has "no delight" in his wife, he can simply let her go.

DT 28:53 "You will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you."

JS 1:1-9, 18 Joshua receives the Lord's blessing for all the bloody endeavors to follow.

JS 6:21-27 With the Lord's approval, Joshua destroys the city of Jericho men, women, and children with the edge of the sword.

JS 7:19-26 Achan, his children and his cattle are stoned to death because Achan had taken a taboo thing.

JS 8:22-25 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly smites the people of Ai, killing 12,000 men and women, so that there were none who escaped.

JS 10:10-27 With the help of the Lord, Joshua utterly destroys the Gibeonites.

JS 10:28 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Makkedah.

JS 10:30 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Libnahites.

JS 10:32-33 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Lachish.

JS 10:34-35 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Eglonites.

JS 10:36-37 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Hebronites.

JS 10:38-39 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Debirites.

JS 10:40 (A summary statement.) "So Joshua defeated the whole land ...; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded."

JS 11:6 The Lord orders horses to be hamstrung. (Exceedingly cruel.)

JS 11:8-15 "And the lord gave them into the hand of Israel, ...utterly destroying them; there was none left that breathed ...."

JS 11:20 "For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be utterly destroyed, and should receive no mercy but be exterminated, as the Lord commanded Moses."

JS 11:21-23 Joshua utterly destroys the Anakim.

JG 1:4 With the Lord's support, Judah defeats 10,000 Canaanites at Bezek.

JG 1:6 With the Lord's approval, Judah pursues Adoni-bezek, catches him, and cuts off his thumbs and big toes.

JG 1:8 With the Lord's approval, Judah smites Jerusalem.

JG 1:17 With the Lord's approval, Judah and Simeon utterly destroy the Canaanites who inhabited Zephath.

JG 3:29 The Israelites kill about 10,000 Moabites.

JG 3:31 (A restatement.) Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an oxgoad.

JG 4:21 Jael takes a tent stake and hammers it through the head of Sisera, fastening it to the ground.

JG 7:19-25 The Gideons defeat the Midianites, slay their princes, cut off their heads, and bring the heads back to Gideon.

JG 8:15-21 The Gideons slaughter the men of Penuel.

JG 9:5 Abimalech murders his brothers.

JG 9:45 Abimalech and his men kill all the people in the city.

JG 9:53-54 "A woman dropped a stone on his head and cracked his skull. Hurriedly he called to his armor-bearer, 'Draw your sword and kill me, so that they can't say a woman killed me.' So his servant ran him through, and he died."

JG 11:29-39 Jepthah sacrifices his beloved daughter, his only child, according to a vow he has made with the Lord.

JG 14:19 The Spirit of the Lord comes upon a man and causes him to slay thirty men.

JG 15:15 Samson slays 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass.

JG 16:21 The Philistines gouge out Samson's eyes.

JG 16:27-30 Samson, with the help of the Lord, pulls down the pillars of the Philistine house and causes his own death and that of 3000 other men and women.

JG 18:27 The Danites slay the quiet and unsuspecting people of Laish.

JG 19:22-29 A group of sexual depraved men beat on the door of an old man's house demanding that he turn over to them a male house guest. Instead, the old man offers his virgin daughter and his guest's concubine (or wife): "Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do with them what seems good to you; but against this man do not do so vile a thing." The man's concubine is ravished and dies. The man then cuts her body into twelve pieces and sends one piece to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

JG 20:43-48 The Israelites smite 25,000+ "men of valor" from amongst the Benjamites, "men and beasts and all that they found," and set their towns on fire.

JG 21:10-12 "... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." They do so and find four hundred young virgins whom they bring back for their own use.

1SA 4:10 The Philistines slay 30,000 Israelite foot soldiers.

1SA 5:6-9 The Lord afflicts the Philistines with tumors in their "secret parts," presumably for having stolen the Ark.

1SA 6:19 God kills seventy men (or so) for looking into the Ark (at him?). (Note: The early Israelites apparently thought the Ark to be God's abode.)

1SA 7:7-11 Samuel and his men smite the Philistines.

1SA 11:11 With the Lord's blessing, Saul and his men cut down the Ammonites.

1SA 14:31 Jonathan and his men strike down the Philistines.

1SA 14:48 Saul smites the Amalekites.

1SA 15:3, 7-8 "This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass ....' And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."

1SA 15:33 "Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord ...."

1SA 18:7 The women sing as they make merry: "Saul has slain his thousands and David his ten thousands."

1SA 18:27 David murders 200 Philistines, then cuts off their foreskins.

1SA 30:17 David smites the Amalekites.

2SA 2:23 Abner kills Asahel.

2SA 3:30 Joab and Abishai kill Abner.

2SA 4:7-8 Rechan and Baanah kill Ish-bosheth, behead him, and take his head to David.

2SA 4:12 David has Rechan and Baanah killed, their hands and feet cut off, and their bodies hanged by the pool at Hebron.

2SA 5:25 "And David did as the Lord commanded him, and smote the Philistines ...."

2SA 6:2-23 Because she rebuked him for having exposed himself, Michal (David's wife) was barren throughout her life.

2SA 8:1-18 (A listing of some of David's murderous conquests.)

2SA 8:4 David hamstrung all but a few of the horses.

2SA 8:5 David slew 22,000 Syrians.

2SA 8:6, 14 "The Lord gave victory to David wherever he went."

2SA 8:13 David slew 18,000 Edomites in the valley of salt and made the rest slaves.

2SA 10:18 David slew 47,000+ Syrians.

2SA 11:14-27 David has Uriah killed so that he can marry Uriah's wife, Bathsheba.

2SA 12:1, 19 The Lord strikes David's child dead for the sin that David has committed.

2SA 13:1-15 Amnon loves his sister Tamar, rapes her, then hates her.

2SA 13:28-29 Absalom has Amnon murdered.

2SA 18:6 -7 20,000 men are slaughtered at the battle in the forest of Ephraim.

2SA 18:15 Joab's men murder Absalom.

2SA 20:10-12 Joab's men murder Amasa and leave him "... wallowing in his own blood in the highway. And anyone who came by, seeing him, stopped."

2SA 24:15 The Lord sends a pestilence on Israel that kills 70,000 men.

1KI 2:24-25 Solomon has Adonijah murdered.

1KI 2:29-34 Solomon has Joab murdered.

1KI 2:46 Solomon has Shime-i murdered.

1KI 13:15-24 A man is killed by a lion for eating bread and drinking water in a place where the Lord had previously told him not to. This is in spite of the fact that the man had subsequently been lied to by a prophet who told the man that an angel of the Lord said that it would be alright to eat and drink there.

1KI 20:29-30 The Israelites smite 100,000 Syrian soldiers in one day. A wall falls on 27,000 remaining Syrians.

2KI 1:10-12 Fire from heaven comes down and consumes fifty men.

2KI 2:23-24 Forty-two children are mauled and killed, presumably according to the will of God, for having jeered at a man of God.

2KI 5:27 Elisha curses Gehazi and his descendants forever with leprosy.

2KI 6:18-19 The Lord answers Elisha's prayer and strikes the Syrians with blindness. Elisha tricks the blind Syrians and leads them to Samaria.

2KI 6:29 "So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, 'Give up your son so we may eat him,' but she had hidden him."

2KI 9:24 Jehu tricks and murders Joram.

2KI 9:27 Jehu has Ahaziah killed.

2KI 9:30-37 Jehu has Jezebel killed. Her body is trampled by horses. Dogs eat her flesh so that only her skull, feet, and the palms of her hands remain.

2KI 10:7 Jehu has Ahab's seventy sons beheaded, then sends the heads to their father.

2KI 10:14 Jehu has forty-two of Ahab's kin killed.

2KI 10:17 "And when he came to Samaria, he slew all that remained to Ahab in Samaria, till he had wiped them out, according to the word of the Lord ...."

2KI 10:19-27 Jehu uses trickery to massacre the Baal worshippers.

2KI 11:1 Athaliah destroys all the royal family.

2KI 14:5, 7 Amaziah kills his servants and then 10,000 Edomites.

2KI 15:3-5 Even though he did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, the Lord smites Azariah with leprosy for not having removed the "high places."

2KI 15:16 Menahem ripped open all the women who were pregnant.

2KI 19:35 An angel of the Lord kills 185,000 men.

1CH 20:3 (KJV) "And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes."

2CH 13:17 500,000 Israelites are slaughtered.

2CH 21:4 Jehoram slays all his brothers.

PS 137:9 Happy will be the man who dashes your little ones against the stones.

PS 144:1 God is praised as the one who trains hands for war and fingers for battle.

IS 13:15 "Everyone who is captured will be thrust through; all who are caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their ... wives will be ravished."

IS 13:18 "Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children."

IS 14:21-22 "Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers."

IS 49:26 The Lord will cause the oppressors of the Israelite's to eat their own flesh and to become drunk on their own blood as with wine.

JE 16:4 "They shall die grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcasses shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth."

LA 4:9-10 "Those slain by the sword are better off than those who die of famine; racked with hunger, they waste away for lack of food. ... pitiful women have cooked their own children, who became their food ..."

EZ 6:12-13 The Lord says: "... they will fall by the sword, famine and plague. He that is far away will die of the plague, and he that is near will fall by the sword, and he that survives and is spared will die of famine. So will I spend my wrath upon them. And they will know I am the Lord, when the people lie slain among their idols around their altars, on every high hill and on all the mountaintops, under every spreading tree and every leafy oak ...."

EZ 9:4-6 The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women ...."

EZ 20:26 In order that he might horrify them, the Lord allowed the Israelites to defile themselves through, amongst other things, the sacrifice of their first-born children.

EZ 21:3-4 The Lord says that he will cut off both the righteous and the wicked that his sword shall go against all flesh.

EZ 23:25, 47 God is going to slay the sons and daughters of those who were ****** .

EZ 23:34 "You shall ... pluck out your hair, and tear your breasts."

HO 13:16 "They shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."

MI 3:2-3 "... who pluck off their skin ..., and their flesh from off their bones; Who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron."

MT 3:12, 8:12, 10:21, 13:30, 42, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30, LK 13:28, JN 5:24 Some will spend eternity burning in Hell. There will be weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.

MT 10:21 "... the brother shall deliver up his brother to death, and the father his child, ... children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death."

MT 10:35-36 "For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law a man's enemies will be the members of his own family."

MT 11:21-24 Jesus curses [the inhabitants of] three cities who were not sufficiently impressed with his great works.

AC 13:11 Paul purposefully blinds a man (though not permanently).

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Aquacheeka
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posted August 18, 2012 02:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aquacheeka     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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Padre35
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posted August 18, 2012 03:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Padre35     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

And?

My first reaction is..

My second reaction is..do you have a point to this or are you going to offer some sort of context?

I suspect not, should be interesting either way, a dumb dumb cut and paste job sort of tells me where one is coming from Leui Keui

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RegardesPlatero
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posted August 18, 2012 04:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for RegardesPlatero     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To be fair, there are also more positive passages.

And, as was pointed out, not everyone takes every part of the Bible literally. Adam and Eve, a lot of people do not take that one literally.

Also, as Padre pointed out, you have to take context into consideration.

On top of that, Cain chose to commit murder of his own free will. God didn't force his hand. You can't blame anyone but Cain for murdering his brother. He was jealous, and it got the better of him. He has to take personal responsibility for that.

With Adam and Eve, even though it isn't always believed literally, the main reason God was upset is that they were disobedient and betrayed him. If I were God, I'd be mad too. And again, you are putting the blame on God here when it was (a) the serpent's fault for testing them and (b) their fault for going along with it. God did not hold a gun to their heads. Again, personal responsibility. He said not to eat from that tree. They could have, you know, LISTENED to that. Not God's fault that they did not!

People often create their own misery by either making bad choices themselves or else having to suffer unfairly by the bad choices made by others. Humans bring on a lot (not all, but a lot) of their own misery by doing horrible things, especially when they do not turn back to what is right and ask forgiveness, and try to turn their lives around. You cannot blame God when people make the conscious choice to do evil. That's on them, not God. It's also on them, when they do sin, to apologize to God (and others as may be needed), to keep trying to get back on track, and to try to make amends to God and those whom they've offended.

And the same thing with Lot's wife. God told them not to do it. They didn't listen. It reminds me too of Eurydice and Orpheus. All that Orpheus had to do was not look at her. That's ALL that he had to do. He didn't do it, he chose not to do it, he paid the consequences.

I could go on and on, but my main problems with this list are: (a) they aren't telling God's side of the story or seeing God's point of view; (b) they aren't giving reasons why God did what God did; (c) no context/historical notes/further details, which are absolutely critical: you cannot understand the Bible properly without that information and can't just read it on its own and (d) they didn't describe any of the passages showing God's compassion and mercy (like with Noah--doesn't God give the rainbow as a sign of a promise that he would never do that again? that little tidbit was left out). The list does not give the completely story, nor does it give background information that would add to the understanding of the passages, such as cultural traditions, laws of the time, if God had told them not to do something, if God was compassionate or forgave them, etc. Further, it also doesn't indicate which passages are generally not taken literally by some people. (Adam/Eve and Noah are two examples of such passages).

Some critical pieces of information are left out, too: were the people in the passages unrepentant? Did the build idols and worship them? Were they doing things like adultery which are considered immoral? Did God warn them first? And free will--did they have the choice, even if it would have been difficult, to not sin? Did they apologize to God and ask forgiveness when they went astray? Those things are important to consider.

I also feel we should look at God's point of view. From God's side, God tells people what to do and they don't listen. God tries and tries and tries with people and they keep not listening and treating God like crap. God loves them and tries to get them to love him/her back, but they continually disrespect God. I imagine that after centuries of putting up with that, I'd be mad too, if I were in God's position. I can see how God would be frustrated and angered.

Yes, there are disturbing passages in the Bible, but they, like any other passages, have to be coupled with context and should give a comprehensive point of view--both God's and that of others involved in the passage, as well as historical notes, traditions, culture of the time, and other important information. Again, you cannot just pick up the Bible and read it. You have to have guide notes/proper understanding and background information on the text to really get the full picture and have complete knowledge of the passage.

In addition to the words and historical background, you also cannot ignore details about the books and authors themselves, such as when these scriptures were recorded, the literary conventions of the time, or other things that may have influenced how the person writing presented a certain situation, which things a person chose to emphasize and why, what they mean/their significance to those living in that time, etc.

Things like what I just mentioned are reasons why entire classes exist on parts of the Bible--to understand it properly, many things in addition to the actual texts must be studied.

(Also, as to my use of him/her, I've always seen the Holy Spirit as feminine, while God the Father and Jesus are masculine. However, others see the Holy Spirit as masculine. So, sometimes I use the pronoun 'him', other times 'her', other times 'him/her'--I'm not referring to different gods; just different parts of the trinity).

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iQ
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posted August 18, 2012 07:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for iQ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
<<
I also feel we should look at God's point of view. From God's side, God tells people what to do and they don't listen. God tries and tries and tries with people and they keep not listening and treating God like crap. God loves them and tries to get them to love him/her back, but they continually disrespect God. I imagine that after centuries of putting up with that, I'd be mad too, if I were in God's position. I can see how God would be frustrated and angered.
>>
No matter how frustrated a Human Being is, he would not kill infants in front of their mothers just because his Ego is hurt at not receiving worship.
And please note, the tally of Israelites killed and non-Israelites killed is almost equal. Is this really the God of the Universe who makes light years upon light years of Stars and Galaxies, or some other Entity who needs constant death on both sides ?

I take the liberty of quoting you:
<<
I believe that God is loving, compassionate, forgiving, understanding, and kind.
>>
<<
I just don't believe that God can be anything but love and goodness.
>>
I agree. The "god" of Joshua is certainly neither compassionate nor loving.

Thus, every right thinking Human Being must ask what sort of "god" can be so callous towards the sanctity of Human Life. What does it tell about us if we believe that this is the real God of the Universe, that this is the Father of Jesus ?

And do note, this same OT "god" of Joshua is conveniently absent during the Slave Trade of Africa, during World War 1 and 2, during the massacare of Natives in the Americas, during Mao's massacare, Atomic Bombings and Stalin's Gulags and during the Holocaust.

Even an ordinary Human Hero tries to fight tyranny and oppression, tries to sacrifice his life to protect an infant. A "god" who can kill so many in the past with fiery serpents yet chickening out in the modern age when Humans have weapons is not very "godly". It appears to be just something that needs human blood to be shed on a regular basis.

The real God will never order the bloody killing of thousands of infants in front of their mothers. Who ever has done that, someday he will face the wrath of the Souls of those Mothers.

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Ami Anne
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posted August 18, 2012 08:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
I also feel we should look at God's point of view. From God's side, God tells people what to do and they don't listen. God tries and tries and tries with people and they keep not listening and treating God like crap. God loves them and tries to get them to love him/her back, but they continually disrespect God. I imagine that after centuries of putting up with that, I'd be mad too, if I were in God's position. I can see how God would be frustrated and angered.

IQ
Always a voice of reason and maturity.

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juniperb
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posted August 18, 2012 09:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

The author is pretty slick. Rather waffeling on both sides of the fence by recognising if one used context, a problem may cease to exist?.

quote:
It should be kept in mind that a perfect and omnipotent God could, should, and likely would see to it that such problems did not exist in a book which s/he had inspired.

Literalists and fundalmentalist don`t see them as a "problem" do they?

Context, context and more context Mr Morgan

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juniperb
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posted August 18, 2012 09:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
RP, nice presentation.


quote:
I could go on and on, but my main problems with this list are: (a) they aren't telling God's side of the story or seeing God's point of view; (b) they aren't giving reasons why God did what God did; (c) no context/historical notes/further details, which are absolutely critical: you cannot understand the Bible properly without that information and can't just read it on its own and (d) they didn't describe any of the passages showing God's compassion and mercy (like with Noah--doesn't God give the rainbow as a sign of a promise that he would never do that again? that little tidbit was left out). The list does not give the completely story, nor does it give background information that would add to the understanding of the passages, such as cultural traditions, laws of the time, if God had told them not to do something, if God was compassionate or forgave them, etc Further, it also doesn't indicate which passages are generally not taken literally by some people. (Adam/Eve and Noah are two examples of such passages).

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We dance around the ring and suppose, but the secret sits in the middle and Knows
Robert Frost

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RegardesPlatero
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posted August 18, 2012 12:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RegardesPlatero     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by juniperb:
RP, nice presentation.



Thanks!

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Lei_Kuei
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posted August 18, 2012 02:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lei_Kuei     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you followed the link I provided at the top, and followed any of the linked up one-liners to there corresponding passage on http://www.biblegateway.com, you would at the very least have the literal context... Two clicks... is often too far for most it seems

quote:
I also feel we should look at God's point of view. From God's side, God tells people what to do and they don't listen. God tries and tries and tries with people and they keep not listening and treating God like crap. God loves them and tries to get them to love him/her back, but they continually disrespect God. I imagine that after centuries of putting up with that, I'd be mad too, if I were in God's position. I can see how God would be frustrated and angered.

Really? Your analysis is deeply apologetic, and the further down that path you go the more Human the God of the Bible becomes... and far less Godly/Divine.

I don't know what camp you are in RP, but its either the divine/inspired word of god or it isnt?

For example: Please explain to me why this is in the Bible? Its in my first post but the author only used the last line:

quote:
PS 137:9 Happy will be the man who dashes your little ones against the stones.


quote:
Psalm 137

King James Version (KJV

37 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.

2 We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.

3 For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion.

4 How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

5 If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.

6 If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.

7 Remember, O Lord, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.

8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

[In case you were not aware, "dasheth thy little ones against the stones" is in reference to picking infant babies and children by the ankles and smashing them against rocks, braining them]


Its my understanding that these guys are singing about how sad/pi.ssed they are when the Babylonians sacked Jerusalem, and they want revenge, murderous revenge!

How can people defend the reason for this being the inspired word of God?

To me it sounds more like the inspired word of a Psychopath... a very human trait at that


------------------
~*~ Did you know that a circle is round? ~*~ - Tautology
You can't handle my level of Tinfoil! ~ {;,;}

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shura
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posted August 18, 2012 02:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shura     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm always a little surprised when people so seemingly far removed from the fundamentalist mindset view an esoteric work with a literal eye.

Use your imagination, folks

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Padre35
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posted August 18, 2012 02:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Padre35     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Keep in mind, the Habaru's were not fierce enough, God demanded a genocide of Amulek, instead Saul took a spoil.

Thusly incurring God's wrath on Israel

Don't do things half way.

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Lei_Kuei
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posted August 18, 2012 02:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lei_Kuei     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Shura@ Are you the pirate girl from Kenshin, I always wished she would make an appearance in the later seasons... like during the whole Shogo Amakusa story line... bah!

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~*~ Did you know that a circle is round? ~*~ - Tautology
You can't handle my level of Tinfoil! ~ {;,;}

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juniperb
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posted August 18, 2012 03:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for juniperb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
If you followed the link I provided at the top, and followed any of the linked up one-liners to there corresponding passage on http://www.biblegateway.com, you would at the very least have the literal context... Two clicks... is often too far for most it seems

I didn`t bother because I didn`t need to

I feel there are two extreme camps, the fundamentalists and the disbelievers in a Merciful God. Both camps go to great lengths to drive their point/beliefs home.

It is almost (note almost!) as wearysome to chase the dogs tail with the disbelievers as the fundamentalists so why beat old territory when one Knows in their heart of a higher truth for ones self to have Faith in ?

Rather you believe or not is between you and your self and I won`t try to convince you of "my Way".

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We dance around the ring and suppose, but the secret sits in the middle and Knows
Robert Frost

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shura
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posted August 18, 2012 08:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shura     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am not the character's namesake but, yes, I do have badass pirate tendencies.

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T
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posted August 18, 2012 08:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
omg. best post of the week.

& yes, she does.

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Lei_Kuei
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posted August 18, 2012 09:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lei_Kuei     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
I am not the character's namesake but, yes, I do have badass pirate tendencies.

Good!

------------------
~*~ Did you know that a circle is round? ~*~ - Tautology
You can't handle my level of Tinfoil! ~ {;,;}

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RegardesPlatero
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posted August 19, 2012 07:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for RegardesPlatero     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lei_Kuei:
If you followed the link I provided at the top, and followed any of the linked up one-liners to there corresponding passage on http://www.biblegateway.com, you would at the very least have the literal context... Two clicks... is often too far for most it seems

Its my understanding that these guys are singing about how sad/pi.ssed they are when the Babylonians sacked Jerusalem, and they want revenge, murderous revenge!

How can people defend the reason for this being the inspired word of God?

To me it sounds more like the inspired word of a Psychopath... a very human trait at that


As for the Biblical atrocities, I felt like only one side was being presented, and felt the need to at least balance it out with the other half, or at least part of it. Basically, God was being portrayed as some kind of monster who just terrorizes people, and I felt that this depiction was unfair and inaccurate to how I have experienced God in my own life.

I was just trying to point out that God does have feelings. The Bible mentions God being pleased, God being angered, etc. What I was trying to point out is that God does get upset when people are disobedient, just as God is pleased when people do good. I was trying to put myself in God's shoes in the sense of trying to understand how God would feel (not in the sense of thinking that I am God or anything).

My mentality was, "all right. What is God's POV in this situation? Why is God mad? Does God have a good reason to be mad? Would I be mad, too, if I were in God's position?"

I feel like God probably felt disrespected and betrayed. From God's POV, God tried to have a covenant with people. God tried to get people to do what was right. God gave people instructions on what was right. God helped people out at times. And what did people do? What thanks did God get for that? A lot of them disrespected God and did horrible things. How would you feel if you were God? Would you not be hurt by how people acted? And to make it worse, if you're God and you genuinely love people, that would make it even worse--like a knife in the heart. How would you not be upset? If you were God, how would you feel if people acted like that towards you over and over again? That's what I was getting at--trying to point out the other side. I simply felt that it was unfair to list a bunch of grievances against God without at least pointing out why God felt angry or was upset, and wanted to at least defend God a bit.

On top of that, I would also like to point out that people can be both angry and compassionate, at different times. People can be angry, but they can also forgive if people repent or are sorry for what they have done, and make amends. Likewise, I would say that God can get angry, and probably does get angry or upset when we fall into sin, but, on the other hand, God is certainly capable of mercy and forgiveness if we want it and if we ask for it, and if we truly desire in our hearts to make amends.

In some cases in the Bible where God really gets angry, people do not seek to reconcile or make things right between themselves and God. Some people did not want forgiveness or reconciliation. Repentance is very important, as is trying not to return to the same behaviors. Part of being in a relationship with God means seeking forgiveness and to try to repair one's connection to God when you fall into sin. It means trying to keep things right between yourself and God.

Also, the psalms are people talking about their encounters with and feelings towards God. They are people speaking about God, as they see God. They are people speaking about God's word. In some passages, people lament. In others, people praise. To me, a big part of the psalms is the human-divine interaction: that is, how people experience God, the place that God has in their lives.

Here is one article about them:
http://www.essortment.com/christianity-basics-psalms-44085.html

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iQ
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posted August 19, 2012 07:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for iQ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
RP wrote:
<<
What I was trying to point out is that God does get upset when people are disobedient, just as God is pleased when people do good. I was trying to put myself in God's shoes in the sense of trying to understand how God would feel (not in the sense of thinking that I am God or anything).
>>
The attempt to reason this way is laudable but the logic has to be precise.

If you create a Robot, and program it to worship you, and it malfunctions, whose fault is it when you have made all the sub components as well? Think very deeply about this. A True Creator will never mercilessly kill His creation, especially by coaxing other creations to do the dirty work, thus not taking upon the Karma of murder on itself.

Think even more deeply. Will the Real God order the killing of infants? This is the Ultimate Spiritual Choice that Humanity makes to Ascend. Is your God the God of Joshua or the Father of Jesus Christ? For they both logically cannot be the same.

Those who worship the God of Moses and Joshua are caught in an endless loop of hatred, fear and death. Those who connect to the Father of Jesus get everlasting life.


Why were the Nag Hammadi Texts hidden?


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Lei_Kuei
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posted August 19, 2012 02:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lei_Kuei     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
@iQ: You are right on the money with a point I'm also taking aim at!

quote:
Why were the Nag Hammadi Texts hidden?

Most likely because they already had full versions of Greek Copies of the Gospel of Thomas (In the Vatican Library) where the name is not "Jesus says: etc". So Id imagine they sh!t themselves when Nag Hammadi came on the scene, and in the panic they tried to pull the plug...

Its a real paradox for them, on the one hand they have there living smoking gun, yet his teachings are a total Heresy LOL!

@RP: Thank you for taking the time to respond, I have a few things to say, Ill be back later

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~*~ Did you know that a circle is round? ~*~ - Tautology
You can't handle my level of Tinfoil! ~ {;,;}

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Padre35
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posted August 19, 2012 02:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Padre35     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

A little known factoid about Nag Hammadi, it was not only gnostic texts that were found, but also books like Plato's Republic.

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PixieJane
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posted August 19, 2012 11:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm actually much more bothered by Christian history than the Bible, because of many people's ability to ignore (or perform incredibly mental gymnastics around) what the Bible says (for example, most Christians would say they're against slavery and are surprised when you point out that the Bible supports it).

There are many hopeful signs, however. OTOH, things like Nazi Germany to Serbia are a reminder that Christianity can go very bad very fast and that is terrifying to me...especially when we got Christians here in the states who wanna make us a lot more like Iran.

Personally, I hope that Unitarian Universalists become the dominant religion over all others (which accepts & incorporates that positive sides of Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc, along with even many neopagan religions) and know better than to literally apply bronze age ethics to our much more enlightened & civilized world today.

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PixieJane
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posted August 19, 2012 11:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
RP...

Let's say you found a man you could marry and...gods forbid!...even have children with. Then a couple of men come to visit and yet you live in a town (gods knows why you'd be living there in the first place, but never mind that...) decide to gang rape the men and your husband offers up your little girls to the crowd to be gang raped instead of the men you've never even met before. Would you consider him righteous?

Let's say a king did find him righteous and killed all the men (and the women, and the children) but spared your family (and even praised your husband for offering your little girls to the mob). But then your husband offends him, so the king murders one or more of your children and has you raped in public. (If you'd like to see just one example of what I'm talking about, see 2 Samuel 12:11-18.)

Would you revere this king? Or call him a vile tyrant?

And if a vile tyrant, then why do you hold God to lower moral standards than a human being?

Serious question, this has always baffled me why people do this. If anyone can give me a sane reason to do this it will be you.

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PixieJane
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posted August 19, 2012 11:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Btw, I liked what this Christian had to say about many of the atrocities:
http://www.amazon.com/Harlot-Side-Road-Jonathan-Kirsch/dp/0345418824

Unlike most Christians, he talked openly and plainly about it and didn't try to "explain it away." Of course he doesn't take a literal view of the Bible. To see someone who could bravely face the disturbing amounts, not rationalize it nor embrace it (thus becoming evil), and then explain why he was still a Christian was very refreshing.

That said, most ex-Christians I know stopped being a Christian when they actually read their Bible and THOUGHT about it rather than just the sugar-coated stories they were carefully pointed to. (And that reminds me of a guy I know who went to some theology school and said he was told outright they had to lie about the Bible to keep the flock Christian...). But this guy managed to keep to his faith in a way that I thought was reasonable (even if the only reason he'd even try IMO is because he was raised a Christian, which he'd have never been raised save for atrocities carried out by Christians against his ancestors).

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Padre35
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posted August 19, 2012 11:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Padre35     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PixieJane:
I'm actually much more bothered by Christian history than the Bible, because of many people's ability to ignore (or perform incredibly mental gymnastics around) what the Bible says (for example, most Christians would say they're against slavery and are surprised when you point out that the Bible supports it).

There are many hopeful signs, however. OTOH, things like Nazi Germany to Serbia are a reminder that Christianity can go very bad very fast and that is terrifying to me...especially when we got Christians here in the states who wanna make us a lot more like Iran.

Personally, I hope that Unitarian Universalists become the dominant religion over all others (which accepts & incorporates that positive sides of Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc, along with even many neopagan religions) and know better than to literally apply bronze age ethics to our much more enlightened & civilized world today.


Will point out that it was Christians who ended slavery in the West.


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