posted March 25, 2013 02:20 AM              

And another question i heard lately... Since adam and eve had two SONS, how did cain and abel make children? Was eve the mother of her grandchildren?

posted March 25, 2013 03:09 AM            

That said, the EXACT same arguments (for the most part anyway) were also made against giving women and racial minorities "special rights" (that is, equality) as well, and it was also defined as "religious belief." (in addition some Christian women used to have to cover their heads over 1 Corinthians 11 and some obscure verse in Revelations and in Matthew 25 also got left handed people discriminated against as well, centuries ago) I could list many examples, but I'll let this sneaky preacher on the right side of history make that point his own way (wait for it...):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8JsRx2lois

posted March 25, 2013 03:16 AM            

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Originally posted by katatonic:
And another question i heard lately... Since adam and eve had two SONS, how did cain and abel make children? Was eve the mother of her grandchildren?

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You might find this take interesting...too bad I can't find the comic version anymore (made up like a Chick tract):
http://www.paganlibrary.com/fundies/other_people.php

Lots of good thoughts there, IMO, but this is particularly relevant:

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Accursed and marked for fratricide, (4:16) Cain left the presence of Yahweh and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden. We can assume that the phrase "left the presence of Yahweh" implies that Yahweh is a local deity, and not omnipresent. Now Eden, according to (Gen. 2:14-15), was situated at the source of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, apparently right where Lake Van is now, in Turkey. "East of Eden," therefore, would probably be along the shores of the Caspian Sea, right in the Indo-European heartland. Cain settled in there, among the people of Nod, and married one of the women of that country. Here, for the first time, is specifically mentioned the "other people" who are not of the lineage of Adam and Eve. i.e: the Pagans.

So let's look at this story from another viewpoint: There we were, around six thousand years ago, living in our little farming communities around the Caspian Sea, in the land of Nod, when this dude with a terrible scar comes stumbling in out of the sunset. He tells us this bizarre story, about how his mother and father had been created by some god named Jahweh, and put in charge of a beautiful garden somewhere out west, and how they had gotten thrown out for disobedience after eating some of the landlord's forbidden magic fruit of enlightenment. He tells us of murdering his brother, as the god of his parents would only accept blood sacrifice, and of receiving that scar as a mark so that all would know him as a fratricide.

The poor guy is really a mess psychologically, obsessed with guilt. He is also obsessively modest, insisting on wearing clothes even in the hottest summer, and he has a hard time with our penchant for skinny-dipping in the warm inland sea. He seems to believe that he is tainted by the "sin" of his parent's disobedience; that it is in his blood, somehow, and will continue to contaminate his children and his children's children.

One of our healing women takes pity on the poor sucker, and marries him... (4:17) Cain had intercourse with his wife, and she conceived and gave birth to Enoch. He became the builder of a town, and he gave the town the name of his son Enoch.

With both of their first sons not turning out very well, Adam and Eve decided to try again: (4:25) Adam had intercourse with his wife, and she gave birth to a son whom she named Seth... (4:26) A son was also born to Seth, and he named him Enosh. This man was the first to invoke the name of Yahweh. Now it doesn't mention here where Seth's wife came from. Another woman from Nod, possibly, or maybe someone from another neolithic community downstream in the Tigris-Euphrates valley. But her folks also, cannot be of the lineage of Adam and Eve, and must also be counted among "the other people."

But whatever happened to Adam? After all, way back there in chapter Gen. 2:17, warning Adam about the magic fruit of knowledge, Jahweh had told him that "on the day you eat of it you shall most surely die." So, when did Adam die? (Gen. 5:4) Adam lived for eight hundred years after the birth of Seth and he became the father of sons and daughters. (5:5) In all, Adam lived for nine hundred and thirty years; then he died. Hey, that's pretty good! Nine hundred and some odd years isn't bad for a man who's been told he's gonna die the next day!

Well, the story goes on, and maybe next time the Witlesses come to visit I'll tell more of it. But suffice it to say that those of us who are not of Semitic descent (i.e., not of the lineage of Adam and Eve) cannot share in the Original Sin that comes with that lineage. Being that the Bible is the story of that lineage, of Adam and Eve's descendants and their special relationship with their particular god, Yahweh, it follows that this is not the story of the rest of us. We may have been Cain's wife's people, or Seth's wife's people, or some other people over the hill and far away, but whichever people the rest of us are, as far as the Bible is concerned, we are the Other People, and so we are continually referred to throughout.

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posted March 25, 2013 03:51 PM            

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Originally posted by katatonic:
Didn't he make them?

And another question i heard lately... Since adam and eve had two SONS, how did cain and abel make children? Was eve the mother of her grandchildren?

So many little details are screwy in this "perfect" book...

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God does not "hate' gays, no more so then he "hates" anyone else, the Scriptural teaching in the new covenant is this:

-They pay twice, once in the flesh and once via separation from God

-There are so called "bible teachers" who to be blunt, don't know a damn thing about the Scriptures and merely use them to lead people astray and gain power for themselves

On the 6th day, God made men, Adam was a 7th day creation in the likeness of God himself. Idiots don't realize this and spout the "..gosh, Cain and Abel were..."

posted March 25, 2013 04:55 PM            

From a modern perspective it was dead wrong for the Catholic Church to deny their flock the Bible. Nevertheles, they had their reasons - some of good intent and some not.

posted March 25, 2013 05:05 PM            

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God is love. Therefore the phrase "God hates" is absurd.

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posted March 25, 2013 05:45 PM            

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Originally posted by shura:
"Hear, O Isreal, the lord thy God is one"
God is unity. God is all. What is God not? Where is God not? Where can I look and not find God? What exists beyond God's realm?Even evil answers to God. Hate is God's, Love is God's.

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posted March 25, 2013 05:47 PM            

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Originally posted by shura:
"Hear, O Isreal, the lord thy God is one"
God is unity. God is all. What is God not? Where is God not? Where can I look and not find God? What exists beyond God's realm?Even evil answers to God. Hate is God's, Love is God's.

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posted March 25, 2013 06:46 PM            

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Originally posted by Faith:
God is love. Therefore the phrase "God hates" is absurd.

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posted March 25, 2013 06:47 PM            

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Originally posted by katatonic:
Yes the trouble with the bible is how riddled with inconsistencies it is, in fact almost everything in it is contradicted somewhere else within its covers.

Thanks for those examples PJ.

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posted March 25, 2013 06:52 PM            

To me, religion is almost entirely semantics.

I should have said above that my conception of what "God" means is personal; however, I think everyone's conception is personal, regardless of what they say about it, and no matter how much people parrot each other.

What goes on in each person's mind is unique.

Anyway, I would not say "God hates."

posted March 25, 2013 06:58 PM            

"God is Love"

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"Is" is the third-person singular present tense of the English language verb "to be", very frequently used as a copula (linguistics).

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The statement "God is Love" places love in a category proceeding/higher and or outside of God, such is logically impossible in the realms of an omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient definition of God.

By the same Logic God is also not Hate.

posted March 25, 2013 07:06 PM            

side thoughts...

maybe God is and God isnt. Maybe he's rather neutral. Maybe human ego and dark side comes into play quite a bit, but beneath it all there is still one truth and unity and the 'dark' has a Purpose.

This world can be sickening and it's hard to imagine it's all Perfect, but i believe in a higher law that the human mind does not easily comprehend.

posted March 25, 2013 07:57 PM              

RELIGION may hate gays, as they do not ADD TO THE POPULATION of the denomination, however gays are prone to adopting children that would otherwise be without guidance or shelter, this in itself is reason to support them.

posted March 25, 2013 08:20 PM            

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Originally posted by Lei_Kuei:
Just a head-wrecker for you...

"God is Love"

The statement "God is Love" places love in a category proceeding/higher and or outside of God, such is logically impossible in the realms of an omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient definition of God.

By the same Logic God is also not Hate.

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I don't see how the word "is" creates any separation whatsoever.

God = Love
God is Love

^^ Same thing.

Yet I know full well that this equation is my own fanciful way of reckoning things, not an attempt at an end-all, be-all conclusion about reality.

I don't take it seriously; other people take their God equations so seriously they would kill their own children about it. (Strangely, through "God," they seem to become demon possessed.)

posted March 25, 2013 08:22 PM            

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Originally posted by T:
Faith, I got you.

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Appreciated!

quote:

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Originally posted by T:
This world can be sickening and it's hard to imagine it's all Perfect, but i believe in a higher law that the human mind does not easily comprehend.

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posted March 25, 2013 09:12 PM            

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Originally posted by katatonic:

i tend to think god is a way for people to anthropomorphize the world/universe..

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posted March 25, 2013 09:47 PM            

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Originally posted by katatonic:
i agree T, and just to be clear i don't think god hates anything...i believe PEOPLE HATE and use god as justification for their hatred.witness the countless wars that have been waged (by both sides usually) in "his" name.

RELIGION may hate gays, as they do not ADD TO THE POPULATION of the denomination, however gays are prone to adopting children that would otherwise be without guidance or shelter, this in itself is reason to support them.

i suspect the "god hates gays" crowd are afraid of their own latent open-mindedness

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Hey kat. Yeah, i knew that about you.

& i suspect you are right.

I think we are on the edge of major change right now and in the future, we will be looking back at these times and shaking our heads at what we were thinking.

posted March 25, 2013 09:48 PM            

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Originally posted by Faith:
Yes, I also think something's going on WAY beyond my understanding.

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