posted April 15, 2013 12:01 PM            

Over the weekend a new group came (different than the ones from a few weeks ago). I was not feeling well, dog was going nuts barking at them and I could not even hear what they were saying because of it, but saw a brochure with Jesus' picture on it.

I said I was sick and trying to sleep (i was). They looked sorry - or like they felt sorry for me, rather and I said goodbye and I shut the door. (I'm sure they thought to themselves that yes indeed I was "sick and asleep" because I had not been saved by Jesus yet [ in 'their way' anyway] They seemed kind enough, but i'm sure they pitied me. Maybe even said a prayer for me to become well again. LOL They did seem nice enough.

TBH it irks me at this point in my life though. Like....how dare they? Leave people alone or let them come to you. It's insulting to me that Christians think if you arent one of them that you need saving. It's beyond rude among other things.

How would you deal with this (non Christians)? How would Christians deal with something like this if a group of people from another religion did the same to them?

posted April 15, 2013 01:41 PM            

I don't have patience for it at this point. I'd rather kindly send them right back on their merry way. No point in wasting your breath with certain people, really. I'm glad I am at that point now. I've no time to entertain people that don't have an open mind and will automatically see me as flawed and in need of rescuing. Get out of my face, is how I feel about that. Though I will always be polite with them, inside I get a bit testy about it.

posted April 15, 2013 01:56 PM            

The first one told me Buddhism, Yoga, astrology and anything of that nature were of the Devil and she was extremely saddened how "kids like me" got involved with those kinds of things and led astray. That was what was wrong with the world today.

Another one, I think knew right away that there would be no swaying me. He listened to me with sorrowful eyes and politely took some book recommendations down that i gave him, but after a couple of in depth conversations, he mostly just avoided me. Realizing he was not going to get through to me (or that he didnt even need to ), and I realized he was not truly listening to me either. Or realized I was of the Devil. ROFL j/k

The third one was constantly coming around my old place and tried to bamboozle me into going to a church event and picnic, in a very sneaky way (as she'd done before). We were to go to an art thing together, she would drive and "oh yeah" btw at the end we are going to my church's picnic. She snuck that part in all quick and sneaky. Um, no. I do not want to go to that and it's clear that was her whole point in wanting to get together with me.....to kidnap me to this church thing. She tried to act like my friend, but what she was doing was only trying to weasel her way into my life and act like she wanted to be friends, when she only saw me as someone who needed to be saved. And was not accepting me for who I was/am, like I did with her. And instead saw me as an opportunity. Long story, but I cut her off. She was the most aggressive one of the bunch and i finally had to throw it back at her to get her out of my life. People often mistake my soft spoken, laidback nature as weakness. I finally had to get really firm with her and havent seen her since.

posted April 15, 2013 02:11 PM            

They prey on little children offering them candies for praying to god

posted April 15, 2013 02:32 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by T:
Isnt that something? I did not know about that.

How sad.

---

The sad thing is they take is as something that's a part of natural order.

posted April 15, 2013 04:51 PM            

(And I heard of another who gave them hard questions and they said they'd have to get to their "supervisor" and when the supervisor came back some of the others were gone because they'd left their church over the questions and apparently the supervisor showed up himself before more left! And after that visit he got no more Witnesses at his door.)

They came back later (or was it Mormons?) but I wasn't in the mood to talk (and I was also playing a role playing game about conspiracies with friends, though we weren't gaming at the precise moment they showed up) so when I opened it I shrieked (with faux terror), "It's the Men in Black!" and slammed the door shut. After that time they never returned. Since then I've used similar tactics and it does seem to work at discouraging them from visiting.

posted April 15, 2013 05:21 PM            

No 'saviors' knock on my door, they get to the steps and turn around. That statue was a gift from my Dad- it certainly has been very handy protecting the entrance to our sacred space.

posted April 15, 2013 05:22 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PixieJane:
How one guy dealt with those proselytizers at his door wanting him to kiss Hank's butt with them...
http://www.jhuger.com/kissing-hanks-butt

---

posted April 15, 2013 06:31 PM            

What I do mind is sometimes they either make a hard sell (seems like an infomercial pitch) or they simply won't leave.

posted April 16, 2013 11:43 AM            

I try to remind myself that, according to their dogmas, I'll be burning in a fire forever if I don't agree with them. I ask myself, "If I believed that, wouldn't I be pushy, too, in an attempt to rescue them from that fate?" Honestly, it's the ones who believe that, and who DON'T do their utmost to persuade me, who really scare me. I guess they're okay with me burning. Of course, so many of those hard-core evangelists don't seem sincerely motivated to help. They just like the role, or something. They feel superior. When you close the door, they're almost happy to leave you to your fate; or what they believe is your fate. Now THAT's creepy.

Anyway, my feeling is that, whether or not you consider yourself a Christian, it helps to know the Bible when dealing with these people, who often have very little knowledge of that book; the one they claim to base all their authority on.

First, I like to remind them of Jesus's words to the rich merchant, when he asked how it's possible to receive eternal life: "sell all that you have, and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven,". This usually leads to some pretty fascinating justifications on their part.

Personally, I have no justification for it. I'm weak, and not a very good Christian, if I can even call myself a real Christian. I'd say I'm more of a Wannabe Christian, or a Christian-In-Training. But, then, Peter, upon whom Christ founded his church, acted violently, despite Christ's insistence on pacifism, and even denied knowing the Savior three times, when Christ needed him most. And even Judas was counted a disciple. But I'm straying off-topic...

Okay, so, then I like to remind them of his words to the disciples, when he sent them out, two by two, to preach the gospel:

In Luke:

"Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece."

In Mark:

"And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse: But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats."

A comparison of these texts is interesting for several reasons.

Now, I don't know the Greek, but based on my limited knowledge, it seems that, "staves" can be translated either as the plural of staff, or as a set of verses (such as you would find in a Bible!). "Scrip" could be either paper (in which case, staves would mean staffs; since he would not have to tell them not to take verses if he had told them not to take paper), or as a small satchel or wallet carried by pilgrims (which seems the more likely translation). Assuming that staves means "staffs", the passage is clearly contradicted in Mark, where he tells them to take only a staff. On the other hand, if Luke's Jesus is not contradicted here by Mark's Jesus, then staves means verses, in which case, scrip means a small satchel, or wallet. But, if scrip means a small satchel, or wallet, it is contradicted in Mark, who does not simply say "take no money", but "take no money in your purse". I'm not one to split hairs, but I'd be hard-pressed to distinguish between a purse and a small satchel or wallet. :/

Either way we look at it, there seems to be a blatant contradiction. But we may need Padre to clarify this matter, as he appears to have an acquaintance with the original Greek.

Leaving the contradiction aside for a moment, both verses agree that the disciple is to set out with no bread (i.e. food) and no money. He is, however, allowed to keep just one coat, which would appear to contradict Christ's words to the merchant, that he sell all he has to feed the poor. Likewise, Mark allows him to keep his sandals and his staff.

posted April 16, 2013 12:29 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PixieJane:
How one guy dealt with those proselytizers at his door wanting him to kiss Hank's butt with them... http://www.jhuger.com/kissing-hanks-butt

---

LOVE IT!

posted April 16, 2013 12:38 PM            

When Paul spoke about the various offices and gifts of the Spirit this is what the Church was meant to be. For example some have the spiritual gift of Evangelism, but not every Disciple does, perhaps they are meant to be Administrators.

Concerning wealth, it is also said "..it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle then wealthy man to obtain heaven.."

This speaks of the needle gate in Jerusalem and a wealthy merchant would have to take all of their trade goods off of the camel in order to enter Jerusalem.

Now the way I see it, what would such a message have to do with a gentle disciple in say Corinth that knew nothing of a needle gate and had never been to Jerusalem?

posted April 16, 2013 12:39 PM            

I'm not even sure a true Christian would want to be called Christian. I'm pretty sure Rumi said "I not Sufi"*, and he founded the Sufi Order of Whirling Dervishes.

This woman uses Christian language regularly, and is probably the closest thing I've seen to a true Christian, but I don't think she chooses to call herself Christian:

Peace Pilgrim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ySs2rLcPhU

posted April 16, 2013 12:51 PM            

I doubt that Buddha on your doorstep would do much good if you lived in the southern part of the United States. At least, not in the way you're talking about here.

A statue of Baphomet, on the other hand...

posted April 16, 2013 01:37 PM            

Thank you so much for the thoughtful response.

quote:

---

Keep in mind HSC, Christ was speaking to Apostles, not only Disciples.

---

In Mark, the preceding verse says "he called unto him the twelve", and in Luke, two verses prior, it says, "he called his twelve disciples together". This is the context I see in the Bible -- that is, with my own eyes. Perhaps if I looked within, -- that is, with God's eyes, -- I might understand it in a different light?

quote:

---

When Paul spoke about the various offices and gifts of the Spirit this is what the Church was meant to be. For example some have the spiritual gift of Evangelism, but not every Disciple does, perhaps they are meant to be Administrators.

---

I like this response very much, and it is a passage I've always liked and pondered. It seems, we are at pains to discover which offices are particular and which concern the universal marks of all true followers of Christ. Is there is a danger here, that one will dismiss those things which seem essential to you, as particular "offices", not meant for all Christians?

quote:

---

Concerning wealth, it is also said

---

Hey, not so fast. You haven't dealt with the merchant yet.

quote:

---

"..it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle then wealthy man to obtain heaven.."

This speaks of the needle gate in Jerusalem and a wealthy merchant would have to take all of their trade goods off of the camel in order to enter Jerusalem.

Now the way I see it, what would such a message have to do with a gentle disciple in say Corinth that knew nothing of a needle gate and had never been to Jerusalem?

---

I'm familiar with this. I would imagine Christ knew his words would travel beyond Jerusalem in his own time, and that he would want to make his sayings as universal and as timeless as possible. While we puzzle over the context of Jewish history, let us consider the possibility that Christ was speaking as much, if not more so, to the people in centuries to come as to the people of his own time. "Read not the times, read the eternities." (Thoreau) This is, indeed, something worthy of reflection. Is it merely difficult (as your interpretation suggests) or is it altogether impossible (as the verse first pointed out suggests) for a wealthy person to enter heaven? No doubt, the majority of people today enjoy more luxury than Herod, whether or not we would consider ourselves rich.

I am inclined to consider the interpretation of Meister Eckhart, who spoke of "spiritual poverty", which is being utterly deprived of everything but God; not merely material possessions, but everything we like to call our own, including our bodies, our various thoughts and emotions, our sensory perceptions, even the sense of our separate existence. But, if it is possible to sacrifice the body while remaining in the body, then we are not talking about martyrdom in the traditional sense. We are talking about a way of giving which does not deprive us of these things, in the ordinary way. We are talking about placing all things in the hands of Divine Providence, and allowing God to do with them as he pleases. Will He give them back to us? "Seek first the kingdom and all these things shall be added unto you." Will He place them in our hands for the purposes of distributing them to the poor?

Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not."
~ John 21:15-18

Perhaps these are questions I cannot answer at my present level of experience, for I have never given myself utterly to God, so that I did not retain some attachment to my senses and myself. Perhaps someday I will, for I believe I have been called and am already learning the way -- even if I am still so reluctant to "go the other half".

quote:

---

This is one of the things I see going on with modern views of the Bible, they lack context and mix the messages imo.

---

I seem to see it, too, though clearly we see different things. For me, the real context is not provided by the Bible itself, but by the mystical experience,to which the Bible, in my less than humble opinion, can only point the way.

posted April 16, 2013 02:06 PM            

Something about with God all things are possible?

Dismiss? Hardly, Apostles had all of the offices, Evangelizing, Healing, Prophecy etc.

posted April 16, 2013 02:13 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by T:
How do you deal with Born Agains and other Christian faithed when they knock on your door to hand you info and try to "save" you?...

How would you deal with this (non Christians)? How would Christians deal with something like this if a group of people from another religion did the same to them?

Curious.

---

I've dealt with these types of people unfortunately everywhere I've lived. When I lived in the Northeast, Jehovah witnesses came to my door on a daily basis. Once when I lived in NY, I was on my way home from work and was stopped on the street by two Latter Day Saint Christians who told me I was a horrible person if I didn't take the time to listen to what they had to say and join their church. I told them I was an atheist and didn't have time for this. They went 180 degrees on me and said I'm going to burn in hell because I'm an evil person. They full on started yelling horrible things at me on the street in the middle of midtown. I walked right by them and kept on walking. I didn't want to waste one more minute in their presence, I was disgusted.