posted April 27, 2013 02:41 PM            

please don't remind me of that, shura. hahaha

posted April 27, 2013 04:05 PM            

Your graciousness and diplomacy will serve you well. They are not my strong suits, and if I do not keep a tight rein on my tongue (and digits) I am likely to run roughshod over subtleties and sensitivities, and to give a poor impression of the nuances which lurk under my more forceful statements. Though I'm slightly better at keeping silence and curtailing my comments in person, I'm still not the typical Scorpio. With three planets in my 12th house, including a close Mars/Mercury in Sagittarius, I have practically no filter. It's a source of near-constant embarrassment. And editing, lol.

Despite my panache for exhibitionism, particularly online, I am really an introvert at heart, and I have personal experience enough to empathize, as well as sympathize, with your comments about the "exoskeleton". I'm gearing up to enter university (I'm a late-bloomer, at the ripe old age of 34), and am almost terrified, as I imagine myself lurking intensely among all those bright and bushy-tailed young people, desperate for a place to hide. As vocal as I am here, I am still so sensitive to critical feedback, and, again, I can see myself getting very elusive and cagey when asked about my beliefs in person. It's different when you have to look people in the eye, and when you can see right into them.

posted April 27, 2013 07:43 PM            

To clarify: I'm not suggesting the events described in the Gospels did not occur in a real and very literal sense. I'm convinced they did, and I believe this sets them apart from the world's various wounded god myths. ie An event many times foretold and an event once fulfilled.
Neither am I suggesting there is only one way to read the Gospels or Mahabharata or whatever else you may choose to peruse. Prophet Muhammad reminded us that there are seven layers of meaning to be uncovered in the sacred texts. The Muslims call an exoteric reading Tafsir, and an esoteric reading Ta'wil. Tafsir relates to zahir - the apparent meaning, the outward form. The profane. Ta'wil relates to batin - the hidden meaning, the spiritual reality behind all physical form. The sacred. Just as there are ascending spiritual worlds hidden from the physical eye, peal away the first layer of meaning in the holy books and you will discover another then another then another ....

Rumi is a great example. You don't need to be a Sufi initiate to enjoy the masterful poetry of Rumi. Many secular westerners adore Rumi's work. But a Sufi student will understand Rumi's code words and comphrehend another layer of intended meaning. Works for everybody, right?Unfortunately, potential problems may arise when some clever soul reads Rumi's many references to wine and drunkenness literally. Again, wine means something a bit different to the average Joe on the street than it does in the world's many esoteric schools. Delve into the occult meanng and you're on your way to a richer understanding of the poetry of Rumi, of the Biblical Wedding of Cana, of the Prose Edda story which tells us Odin did not eat food but drank only wine ... of many many things.

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Originally posted by Faith:
I don't know how anyone could ever prove that definitively. Which is why it's an area of study I usually leave alone. I feel that if one is elevating their interpretations to the level of "divinely inspired" or whatnot, there is potential for delusion and also isolation: once you've departed from the literal meaning of the words, you can end up in a no man's land of personal meanings.

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That's an excellent point. It really is. Oddly enough, it's my main concerns with New Age philosophy. It's all highly personal - too personal maybe. The New Age tends to equate feeling with spirituality, tends to confuse soul with spirit. This is why I've stressed "mutual understanding" The esoteric meaning of mountain isn't arbitrary. It's not my interpretation. It's not what it feels like or what I, or anyone else, imagines or wishes it to be. Knock on the door of a Freemason meeting house, a Sufi tariqa in Persia, an Anthroposophical seminar in Berlin and ask all three what 'mountain' means. You will be given the same answer. I promise, but do try it yourself and see. It's much like - no, actually it's exactly like asking an American, Iranian, and German biologist what Na is code for. They will all say, "sodium", yes? It's no different. They may speak English, Farsi, and German respectively but they all know the universal language of the periodic table. Once you learn the basics of this occult language you can 'speak' Christian, Hindu, Islam, Buddhism, European Pagan etc because they do in fact use this same basic code, a leftover of the time when we communicated with pictures. It requires only the smallest effort to lock in and get your basic bearings, so to speak, when walking on foreign ground. And then you may find that each spiritual path verifys the others, as multiple scientists conducting multiple experiments in isolation will confirm each others theories. So, in answer to your question of definitive proof, until we "have eyes to see" for ourselves, mass consensus might be the next best thing.

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Obviously we all have our individual values; but in my experiences, I've found that those who take an interest in theology are more inclined to try and change others. And if someone's pushing a highly personal or eccentric belief system on me, and blowing the trumpet beforehand like they are announcing divine truth, that doesn't sit well with me at all.

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It shouldn't sit well with you. Anyone pounding you over the head with absolutes, making threats of eternal damnation, or selling something is immediately suspect in my book. The topic of submission is a tricky one and we shouldn't delve too deeply here, but I will say that what was rightfully expected of the student in ages past is no longer appropriate or productive. Any guru, guide, teacher, or master who expects your blind unquestioning belief should be shown the door. Forcefully imo. Full awarness, a free and independent consciousness, a fully blossomed Individuality is the aim now, hard won though it may be.

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However, it all depends on how each person handles it.

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Yes. Always, with all things.

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Suffice it to say I greatly appreciate conversations free of agenda on both sides.

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It is a blessing, to be sure.

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Nice talking with you-- I've always enjoyed your comments but seldom see you around.

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And you

posted April 27, 2013 07:47 PM            

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Originally posted by mirage29:
Spiritual things are 'spiritually' discerned.

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or, yk, I could have just said that

posted April 28, 2013 11:23 AM            

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Rumi is a great example. You don't need to be a Sufi initiate to enjoy the masterful poetry of Rumi. Many secular westerners adore Rumi's work. But a Sufi student will understand Rumi's code words and comphrehend another layer of intended meaning. Works for everybody, right?Unfortunately, potential problems may arise when some clever soul reads Rumi's many references to wine and drunkenness literally. Again, wine means something a bit different to the average Joe on the street than it does in the world's many esoteric schools. Delve into the occult meanng and you're on your way to a richer understanding of the poetry of Rumi, of the Biblical Wedding of Cana, of the Prose Edda story which tells us Odin did not eat food but drank only wine ... of many many things.

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But since the spiritual adventures of the mystic are not those of ordinary men, it will follow that this map, though always true for him, is not complete. He can press forward to countries which unmystical piety must mark as unexplored, Pushing out from harbour to “the vast and stormy sea of the divine,” he can take soundings, and mark dangers the existence of which such piety never needs to prove. Hence it is not strange that certain maps, artistic representations or symbolic schemes, should have come into being which describe or suggest the special experiences of the mystical consciousness, and the doctrines to which these experiences have given birth. Many of these maps have an uncouth, even an impious appearance in the eyes of those unacquainted with the facts which they attempt to translate: as the charts of the deep-sea sailor seem ugly and unintelligible things to those who have never been out of sight of land. Others—and these the most pleasing, most easily understood—have already been made familiar, perhaps tiresomely familiar, to us by the poets; who, intuitively recognizing their suggestive qualities, their links with truth, have borrowed and adapted them to their own business of translating Reality into terms of rhythm and speech. Ultimately, however, they owe their origin to the mystics, or to that mystical sense which is innate in all true poets: and in the last resort it is the mystic’s kingdom, and the mystic’s experience, which they affect to describe.

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posted April 29, 2013 11:25 AM            

Very informative for me.