posted December 21, 2013 12:01 AM            

I don't care what ignorant comments he makes as long as he's not actively crusading or paying others to crusade against gays (that is promote laws, bills, and measures to deny them equality or worse). And I also don't care if the private company chooses to fire him over it, nor would I care if they simply said "his views, not ours" and let him stay on. Private companies should be able to make the choices they want (and deal with the social consequences).

I also think he'll get better offers now or at least book deals that he otherwise wouldn't have.

posted December 21, 2013 12:25 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
I saw a couple of eps hearing how awesome the show was but the appeal escaped me.

I don't care what ignorant comments he makes as long as he's not actively crusading or paying others to crusade against gays (that is promote laws, bills, and measures to deny them equality or worse). And I also don't care if the private company chooses to fire him over it, nor would I care if they simply said "his views, not ours" and let him stay on. Private companies should be able to make the choices they want (and deal with the social consequences).

I also think he'll get better offers now or at least book deals that he otherwise wouldn't have.

And though I'm not going to move this (but don't care if someone else does) I think this actually belongs in Aquarius Rising rather than Divine Diversities as AR deals in diversity while DD is more about theology & philosophy (with some mysticism). I may move it later but right now I'm aware of how much Christianity has shaped his views and how much the Christian Right will involve themselves and so I'm caught in indecision over whether to move it or not. I guess it will depend on what direction the thread goes. Or until Randall (or another mod) makes a ruling.

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posted December 21, 2013 12:40 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
And he didn't just say "homosexuality is a sin" which isn't that offensive to me since many Christians believe masturbation is a sin, too, and I just find it hard to care and dismiss it along with Mormon beliefs of magic underwear and even some Scientologist dogma. What he actually did was compare homosexuality to bestiality and lump gays with terrorists (and also drunks which makes me wonder what my alcoholic dad thinks of being lumped with gays and terrorists...)

More details:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michelangelo-signorile/duck-dynastys-robertson-g_b_ 4479376.html

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posted December 21, 2013 05:22 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
He was talking about sin and how all sins are the same according to the bible

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I get that now.

That said, I understand why many would take offense because it was still a lumping. My dad not being a Christian (and therefore this interpretation escaping him) would probably take offense at it, too (and he probably doesn't like the idea of gay men).

posted December 22, 2013 10:49 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
It has a religious slant.

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posted December 23, 2013 03:16 AM            

But it can be so hard to look at the positive of Christianity sometimes because of the bigotry it promotes which people have the gall to call "morality" and "my religious beliefs" as if they should escape all responsibility for their public speech and actions "because it's my religion." Of course they (generally speaking) mean for themselves, like the majority of people backing PR also supported Michelle Malkin getting an ad pulled, which even if true about it being Islamic would then mean "freedom of religion" should force tolerance, and if they're really against politically correct censorship and whining then they should've been opposed to that censorship as well. But too many want special rights, they prove that over and over again. Of course they gripe about special rights when what they're actually opposed to is equality under law rather than institutionalized bigotry in accordance to their arbitrary definitions of what the Bible means ("what the Bible means" keep changing and yet people keep acting like it's been thought of in those terms for over a thousand years, and then there are so many denominations with varying views, all of which claim to be Biblical).

And though American Christianity is especially toxic compared to the rest of the Westernized world I can't help but notice its effects even in more enlightened and progressive countries. For example, Sweden is one of the most progressive and tolerant countries out there and one of the first to fully recognize gay marriage...and all parties but one, from the right wing to the left wing, voted in favor of it. And the one exception? Christian Democrats.

posted December 23, 2013 12:57 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by shura:
The last paragraph in particular is absurdly ignorant. The anti segregation civil rights movement was church led and inspired. MLK was a Christian Reverend. Likewise many of the Civil War era abolitionists were devout Christians. Harriet Beecher Stowe, Charles Spurgeon, John Wesley, Sojourner Truth.

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Of course there are some Christians who have done good. However;
PixieJane is not showing ignorance; yours is however.
Or denial of what is happening in the world when fundies are in power.

quote:

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Originally posted by shura:

Are there any threads on the forum which haven't devolved into yet another hand wringing session over far right fundamentalist groups? It's obsessive.

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Obsessive?
We dare not just ignore these people.
They are dangerous and if they take us back to the dark ages; which oh yes, can indeed happen even in these times.
As we can see with Russia's fundie Christianity in play;
It has become a criminal offense with punishment from prison to death for going against Christianity by just not being one, or being gay, or whatever;
will incur the the wrath of the rabid Christians who are in power there now.
Christianity and or any Abrahamic religion is too often the reasoning for abuses and atrocities being done to non believers of any particular dogma.
We remain silent and fall fast back into the dark ages.
These are dangerous times.
And becoming too much like the
"good old days".
"shudder"

Do you really want the fundies of any religion to take over as they have in many places?

It seems to be OK with too many folks to see people preaching and pushing their beliefs every chance they get.
Ami has it on every post she makes.
I don't have "non believer" or "atheist" or whatever on my posts, offering "free advice/information" of my views.
It is not just Ami but in politics and schools and more.
The pushing the religious right fundie agendas; even in issues about evolution.
We remain silent and yes Virginia, the fundies might indeed take over and take us back to living under the laws and the horrors the bible commands/condones.
Slavery, oppression of women, witchcraft trial and witch burnings, and the death penalty for all kinds of things.
This sounds excessive to you?
Well it has not been very long since fundies were in control in this country and many others; and are still in control in many. And some as Russia has done;
are rapidly falling back in the abyss of Christian fervor and prosecutions of non believers.
The dark ages can indeed return.
If you cannot see that then you are not paying attention to the insanity going on in the world when it comes to religion and the people who use it to justify crimes against humanity.


Edited to add:
This was/is not meant to offend as Shura has accused me; but to make a statement that if people actually read what is in the so called good book;
they might be shocked because they do not know the horrors that even their messiah promotes in the NT.
For me;
yes this is a very scary horrible symbol.
Not my fault that most folks are in the dark as to the full story behind it.
We are not allowed to say boo about that are we?
I am being told I must censor my objections to these things.
Where are my rights to believe or not?
To have an opinion?
I try and discuss but how can there be any discussions if I am not allowed to post how I feel?????????????
Why is it only the religious who have that privilege???????????????
The NT has fewer horrors than the OT;
but it still contains shocking things; from "Christ" supposedly to boot.
We are supposed to ignore that?
Why am I seen as a a monster or whatever negative label just because that symbol gives me the creeps?
It is horrible.
What if it was a guillotine or electric chair?
Or drawn and quartered?
"Shudder"
Well anyhow;
check out the love and light here.
I did not write it; just pointing it out. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html

posted December 23, 2013 02:50 PM            

quote:

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Of course there are some Christians who have done good. However;
PixieJane is not showing ignorance; yours is however.
Or denial of what is happening in the world when fundies are in power.

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The statement showed extreme bias and a seemingly willful avoidance of historical fact

quote:

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Obsessive?

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Yes, obsessive. This forum has descended into little more than a playground for highly personal antipathies.

quote:

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We dare not just ignore these people.
They are dangerous and if they take us back to the dark ages; which oh yes, can indeed happen even in these times.
As we can see with Russia's fundie Christianity in play;
It has become a criminal offense with punishment from prison to death for going against Christianity by just not being one, or being gay, or whatever;
will incur the the wrath of the rabid Christians who are in power there now.
Christianity and or any Abrahamic religion is too often the reasoning for abuses and atrocities being done to non believers of any particular dogma.
We remain silent and fall fast back into the dark ages.
These are dangerous times.
And becoming too much like the
"good old days".
"shudder"

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This is a political issue, Lexx. I am vehemently opposed and have spoken out against the intrusion of religious factions into politics at every opportunity. Be it the take over of the Conservative Right by fundamentalists or the ever increasing power of the Jewish lobby powerhouse, AIPAC, my record here and elsewhere is clear. Again, this is political matter. Take it to GU.

quote:

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Do you really want the fundies of any religion to take over as they have in many places?

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I question judgments based on hate and fear. I don't like extremism, Lexx. Theirs or yours, I stand opposed.

This is tasteless, Lexx. It's designed to offend, nothing more. A cross may symbol execution and death to you. Clearly, it has come to symbolize much more to the world's Christians. You're mirroring extremism with more extremism.

quote:

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It seems to be OK with too many folks to see people preaching and pushing their beliefs every chance they get.
Ami has it on every post she makes.
I don't have "non believer" or "atheist" or whatever on my posts, offering "free advice/information" of my views.

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Lexx, your views are more than transparent. Ami, as far as I can see, isn't a part of this discussion. Tunnel vision.

quote:

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It is not just Ami but in politics and schools and more.
The pushing the religious right fundie agendas; even in issues about evolution.
We remain silent and yes Virginia, the fundies might indeed take over and take us back to living under the laws and the horrors the bible commands/condones.
Slavery, oppression of women, witchcraft trial and witch burnings, and the death penalty for all kinds of things.
This sounds excessive to you?
Well it has not been very long since fundies were in control in this country and many others; and are still in control in many. And some as Russia has done;
are rapidly falling back in the abyss of Christian fervor and prosecutions of non believers.
The dark ages can indeed return.
If you cannot see that then you are not paying attention to the insanity going on in the world when it comes to religion and the people who use it to justify crimes against humanity.

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Again, politics.

rereading the mandate of this forum, I confirm it was established to discuss various religious doctrine. Yet all we do is bash. If you have no interest in the world's religious belief systems, I think that's great and I will defend your lack of interest with all I've got. Endless bashing of the personal vendetta sort I don't understand. If Randall's purpose for this forum is to provide a spot where we may gleefully rake religion across the coals, well that's great too. I'll happily bow out if so.

Randall, please correct me if that's the case.

posted December 23, 2013 06:53 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by shura:
The last paragraph in particular is absurdly ignorant. The anti segregation civil rights movement was church led and inspired. MLK was a Christian Reverend. Likewise many of the Civil War era abolitionists were devout Christians. Harriet Beecher Stowe, Charles Spurgeon, John Wesley, Sojourner Truth.

Are there any threads on the forum which haven't devolved into yet another hand wringing session over far right fundamentalist groups? It's obsessive.

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Christianity was used to justify racism and slavery...actually the Bible is quite detailed on who you can enslave and how you're to treat them and even the New Testament tells slaves to obey their masters.

Christians aren't a hive mind. That's why I pointed out how arbitrary it can be but everyone thinks they're Biblical. Just because MLK Jr. and many of his followers were a Christians (who tried to cover up an openly gay member of importance among them as a result, at least in part, btw) doesn't mean that therefore white racists weren't also thumping their own Bibles. Even the KKK are Christians, at least generally speaking. And the Bible was used to justify banning interracial marriage and the arguments were respected at the time they were made. Quick examples (pdf):
http://www.equalitygiving.org /files/Marriage-Equality-Same-Sex-Lesbian-Gay-Marriage/Arguments_Against_Interracial_Marriage_and_Equal_Marriage.pdf

Longer explanation of the parallels:
http://hnn.us/article/4708

posted December 23, 2013 06:59 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by shura:
I confirm it was established to discuss various religious doctrine. Yet all we do is bash. If you have no interest in the world's religious belief systems, I think that's great and I will defend your lack of interest with all I've got. Endless bashing of the personal vendetta sort I don't understand. If Randall's purpose for this forum is to provide a spot where we may gleefully rake religion across the coals, well that's great too. I'll happily bow out if so

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We are discussing, and we didn't start this thread. And we don't "just bash." We explore various belief systems and I myself have shared positive aspects of Christianity multiple times, from the Russian Orthodox I met to the kind that my Granny practices and explored other views of Christianity (and many other religions) from an interested academic & philosophical perspective. However, THIS thread is about the kind that's backing PR. If you feel so defensive that people who share your religion (if a different version of it) can't be critically examined without you feeling all persecuted and hated then maybe it's not a topic safe for you to discuss and you should stay out. Not because you're being bashed but because we won't whitewash the scandals and studiously ignore the bad while only admitting to the good so that you feel comfortable.

posted December 23, 2013 08:05 PM            

Edit to add:
We will not be silent about this. So much outrage over Phil Robertson, but these same people are so quiet about Matthew Shepard, and others like him that die from hate crimes or suicide from being bullied.
Be a protector for the bullied, be the voice for the oppressed.
-Mrs. Cooper

posted December 23, 2013 09:13 PM            

You've proven my point. As with other religions and philosophical schools, Christianity has been cited in arguments both for and against slavery, segregation, and civil rights. Consider the Civil War era split of the US Baptist Church, an event with which I'm sure you're familiar. Troubling events pointed to in Russia
and the surrounding Slavic states are no more destructive then those once enforced by the violently anti religious, pro atheist Stalin and post Stalin regimes. Please recall that the Communists tolerated homosexuality no more so than the current US imported evangelicals do. So who is the bad guy here? A reasonable, disinterested observer will see that the fault lies less in the religion then it does the practioner. But, again, we're dragged into a political discussion on a forum ostensibly dedicated to the good natured exchange and exploration of religious doctrine.

A quick scan of recent threads reveals a negative preoccupation with Christian fundamentalism. Regrettably, this forum has been led to a place neither "divine" nor "diverse." We see fundies under every rock and behind every tree, approaching a witch hunt like mentality. I understand that some members have endured difficult experiences with the hellfire and brimstone crowd, and I remain genuinely sympathetic to their plight. Nevertheless, in the interest of creating a more welcoming, educational, and equanimous environment here in DD, perhaps an attempt could be made to leave these personal fears at the door and move past the hate to a more positive subject matter. Cultivating an attitude less bitterly antagonistic might have the added benefit of attracting more posters.

posted December 23, 2013 09:15 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lexxigramer:
PixieJane
You have a very good way with words.
I should shut up and let you do all the "talking".
I tend to offend no matter what I say.
I edited to add to my post above that shura was offended by. Doubtful it will matter though.

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posted December 23, 2013 09:16 PM            

Back when I followed the Scandinavian gods as literal entities I knew there were racists and white supremacists who also did and I didn't take offense at them being pointed out, I agreed they were a problem. When here in LL someone pointed out my vision of Freya was likely to have been in part because of the shrooms I did earlier I explored that concept rather than getting offended...and I believe I'd have explored it back when I believed it was all literally real...back then I didn't feel a need to have my religious beliefs codified into law and I'd have been one of the biggest vocal opponents if other followers of the Scandinavian gods tried to promote measures against interracial marriage.

Can you imagine if more Christians were like that? Imagine if most who publicly say "Westboro Baptist isn't with us" ALSO said that about the Pope who praised Uganda for their move to pass "kill the gays bill" or the politically powerful people in the US who also promoted it (one who gave the inauguration prayer at Obama's first election) instead of voting these people who are anti-gay, anti-woman and pro-Jesus into office and if they then also refused to make the authors who promote such views into best sellers that they praise, all which (along with politicians catering to them) show just how popular the negative aspect of Westboro is. It would be a better world that would save lives from abuse and death. So why won't more of them speak up instead of trying to silence everyone else who does?

And what's actually opposed in Westboro by too many Christians is their anti-soldier mentality as well as being blunt about their hate rather than their anti-gay rhetoric as we can see here with the furor of support (*) for Phil Robertson and expect special rights for themselves while condemning equality (that they miscall "special rights")for others. If specific Christians don't want to be associated with the toxic kind then stand up to them just as Westboro is stood up to! A few (such as that pastor I linked to above) do stand up to be counted. Where are the rest of you? If you stood up instead of "hiding your talents" then politicians wouldn't cater to these hate mongers, creationism wouldn't be promoted in more and more schools, and it would save a great many lives from pain, abuse, misery, and death, all of which "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" contribute to.

posted December 23, 2013 09:19 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by shura:
quick scan of recent threads reveals a negative preoccupation with Christian fundamentalism

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