posted October 02, 2009 09:48 PM         

Are you really getting married?

You should reconsider the 12th house, it's a cozy and romantic place for a wedding. It is very neptunian. Most people go for the 5th or 7th, but that's so blah.

posted October 02, 2009 09:50 PM         

Unless you're being sarcastic about her sarcastic comment.

Eff this! I can't take this.

I am off to sleep!

posted October 02, 2009 10:51 PM         

Diana, I find the 12th house tres chic as well.
You're right, it's out-of-the way, very private and dreamily romantic.

The 5th can be totally gaudy and the 7th is always overbooked.
Too much PR for both of those houses

posted October 03, 2009 12:13 AM         

It also can be good for working behind the scenes.

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted October 03, 2009 09:42 AM         

I have been thinking a LOT about where I have come from and where I am going to, what I really want.

So that fits the fm I guess.

posted October 03, 2009 10:06 AM         

I am not sure if that's a potential violent death transit, or maybe profound intuitive/occult insights,or maybe intimate relations.

Eris in 8th is no joke. If dwarf planet,Pluto in 8th is very powerful placement, Pluto's fellow larger,more distant dwarf planet,Eris could be just as powerful in the 8th house too. So if hard transits to Pluto in 8th can be very profound and disturbing, Eris could be just as profound and disturbing.

Philip Sedgwick listed the following mundane things for Eris:
Mundane: promises and vows (both kept and broken), elections and election fraud, intervention by higher powers (troubleshooters, authorities, deity or God), using chaos and disruption as a method of reorganization - i.e., dumping a closet onto the floor, then reorganizing, things that overturn, the scales of justice, battles, disputes, famine, fightings, lawlessness (attributed to her moon, Dysnomia), lies, manslayings, murders, oath, oblivion, quarrels - and the last word therein, sorrows and toil, contention, rivalry, loved the spilling of blood on the battlefield, the fifth day of the month, gluttony, gloating, the nurse of war, women wearing men’s uniforms (sports players, women in the military, astronauts)

I have other hard transneptunian transits with close orbs too:

Transiting Pluto in my 5th square Natal Pluto in 4th - '03 applying

Transiting retro Sedna in my 9th oppose Natal 2nd/9th house ruler Venus in 9th. - '00 applying
Transiting Venus in my 1st sesquiquadrate Natal retro Sedna in my 9th - '19 applying
(double focus Venus-Sedna transit.....could be very significant)

Transiting Jupiter in my 6th oppose Natal Makemake in 12th - '47 applying

Transiting Orcus in my 1st square Natal Neptune in 4th - '22 applying

I am going through a major evolutionary intensified period.

Tonight's full moon at 11:10 pm my time might be the climax of it.

I am not sure if I should go out tonight and have some fun or I should stay home and be in contemplation,meditation,introspection.

Maybe my decision to permanently switch to the whole sign house system and use only traditional sign rulerships also fits with that evolutionary intensified period. I have been changing the way that I do Astrology,and so I am seeing things more differently now. I will be doing all charts with whole sign house system after 11 years of doing charts with the Placidus house system. Robert Hand's book totally convince that whole sign house system makes more sense and is more logical to use. I just can't ignore the major differences when it comes to polar charts. I am in the last lunar return period in my current solar return. My next lunar return will be on my next solar return. Maybe the full moon conjunct my Eris-Chiron in my 8th will act as a herald for what is to come in the next solar return period which has Scorpio Ascendant. The full moon is sextile/trine my Midheaven/Imum Coeli with 4 minutes of arc applying, and so it could be beneficial experience for me.

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted October 03, 2009 10:30 AM         

" am going through a major evolutionary intensified period."

I think you described the effects of this transits well here.
Yes, it is very likely that this heralds a major transformation, and you have been feeling it for a while now, and yes, maybe tonight is a climax of sort.

It doesn`t need to relate to physical death, but more to the death of some outworn opinions or thoughts or even feelings you have left behind.

Maybe it also indicates an almost painful honesty and truthfulness, as realizing that some charts do not work in polar regions and that you cannot just close your eyes and pretend it is working, and just concentrate on the middle region of this earth.

Maybe that is really a part of that honesty, to notice or realize somethinga nd then having to draw the conclusions and take on the consequences, even though it means a certain adjustment, as the use of the whole sign houses certainly demands.

Just as an example

posted October 03, 2009 11:40 AM         

I'd say that you were the catalyst of me switching to whole sign house system.

You talked about the complications with the polar regions and that the Ascendant and Midheaven can conjunct in those regions. You got me thinking and investigating. I saw for myself that they can conjunct as well as can be in opposition in the polar regions. I realized that the Koch and Placidus house systems aren't really designed for the polar regions,and so that's why Solar Fire automatically does equal sign house system charts whenever I punch in polar region latitude coordinates. I even found out that the Equal house system wasn't designed for the poles,and that's why Solar Fire automatically does whole sign house system charts whenever I punch in 90 degrees latitude for the North and South Poles.

Koch and Placidus house advocates argue that the Midheaven isn't always in the 10th house in the whole sign house system. None of that matters. The Midheaven and Ascendant can be in conjunction as well as in opposition in the polar regions. In the south polar regions,the Midheaven can be below the horizon. It can even be in the 4th house.
Things like that can't be ignored and swept under the rug. That strongly counters the arguments of the Placidus,Koch house system advocates.

I have Robert Hand's Whole Sign Houses The Oldest House System book,and it really has helped me understand the whole sign house method.He pointed out the translation errors from Ptolemy's writings is what led to this whole house mess that we have. Ptolemy mainly used whole sign house system,and he also used whole sign house aspects too. The notion of Ptolemy using equal houses comes from book III in the section in which Ptolemy describes the computation of the aphetic point, a point used to determine how many years a person may live. He also pointed out that the Part of Fortune was used as a horoscopic point which means that it was used as a starting point where houses can be checked from just like how the Moon is used in Vedic Astrology. The whole sign house method was used with the Part of Fortune houses. The houses that came after whole sign houses were actually used to determine the strengths of planets like how Gauquelin sectors are used.

but yeah, I've converted to whole sign houses. No more looking at Placidus house system charts. My whole sign house system chart does really fit me. My apex Moon in 7th as apex in t-square fits with the major obstacles that I have had with females in relationships and the turbulent relationship with my mother strongly influenced how I am in relationships. I just feel like I have serious major karma when it comes to relationships. My Placidus chart doesn't really show it. There is hope for good relationships with my Sun in 3rd trine Moon in 7th. It seems that I can have a very good relationship,marriage if I am self expressive,vibrant,confident in communications. I am looking forward to my next solar return period with Sun in 1st trine Moon in 5th.

I have also decided that I am not only going to look at ecliptic longitude but also equatorial longitude (Right Ascension). I already look at declinations too. Astronomers use the Right Ascension coordinates to locate objects,and so it's logical to use Right Ascension in Astrology too. I already used the declinations like them.

Of course, I am making the transneptunians a regular part of my system,and I have adjusted how I use Pluto now. I feel that it's logical to give the same orbs for Pluto's fellow transneptunians as I give to Pluto. However,I can't see giving 5 to 6 or even 8 to 10 degrees for the transneptunians. Therefore, I give 3 degree orbs for all transneptunians including Pluto. That's definitely controversial in Astrology,but it makes sense to me with the new astronomical discoveries. I feel that I need to adjust to Astronomical discoveries. Astronomers discovered the outer planets and Pluto,and most western astrologers use them.

As for transits, I don't know. I don't feel comfortable using over 1 degree orb for transneptunian transits,especially for Sedna with its orbit of over 12,000 years. I am so used to using 3 degree orb for transneptunian,Pluto. That is something that I have to strongly reflect on. If I use a 3 degree orb for Pluto, I might as well use the same orb for its fellow plutinos,Orcus,Ixion,and Huya. As plutinos,their orbits are only about a year apart from Pluto's. There are small plutinos like Rhadamanthus named after a judge in the Underworld in Greek mythology.

Yesterday, I decided that I am going to pay examine the effects personal planet conjunctions/oppositions to my natal transneptunians as well as other major transits to my transneptunians to understand the effects of the transneptunians in my whole sign houses. Examining effects of the full moon conjunct my retrograde Eris in 8th would be a great way to start.

I am also considering the influence of the constellations on the tropical sign placements. I can't help identifying with my constellation Virgo Sun more and more compared to my tropical Scorpio Sun.
Diana Rosenberg believes that there is a constellation-tropical sign blend that gives a better picture than tropical sign alone.
My Aquarius constellation influence on my tropical Pisces Moon cannot be ignored no kind of way. My Moon is in ecliptic longitude conjunction with 2 stars in Aqaurius which include Ancha (theta Aquarius aka hipbone of the waterbearer) and Sadalmelik (alpha Aquarius aka The Lucky One of the King). I even have my Moon in Right Ascension to Sadalchbia (gamma Aquarius aka Lucky Star of Hidden Things).

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted October 03, 2009 01:00 PM         

I didn`t know that i had any influence in your swinging to the whole sign houses, but yes, most of what you found, I found out. I don`t know why I was sticking to Placidus though. I guess it just worked, and I was so used to it, but I am deeply unhappy because of the astronomical impossibility of it, at least at certain times and places.
I also guess that I have experienced that I come to good results with using Placidus, but don`t have an equal experience regarding equal or whole sign houses. So me, not changing so far, might be because of my insecurity.

But the way you described it and discussed it repeatedly made me realize that I really cannot stick to a housesystem that does not work in polar regions, as I believe, astrology is a system that should work for all people, all places and all times.

For me the question is just if I am using equal system or whole sign houses.

"I even found out that the Equal house system wasn't designed for the poles,"
Could oyu elaborate on that?
Why wasn`t it designed?
Is there a time or place, when it is not possible to calculate the ASC?
And if it is so, wouldn`t we have to dismiss the ASC alltogether?

"Things like that can't be ignored and swept under the rug."
I strongly agree with you on that.

" Therefore, I give 3 degree orbs for all transneptunians including Pluto."
3 degree orb sounds very reasonable to me. Actually it is my preferred orb.

"I don't feel comfortable using over 1 degree orb for transneptunian transits,especially for Sedna with its orbit of over 12,000 years."
Well, I must say, from recent experience I felt transit Saturn starting to square my Sun, when it was almost exactly one degree away. So I guess I will stick to the one degree orb for transits for now. Of course you can feel it slightly increase before that, but at that 1 degree mark it was as if something had been "switched".

"to understand the effects of the transneptunians in my whole sign houses. Examining effects of the full moon conjunct my retrograde Eris in 8th would be a great way to start."
Yes, and you already did such an amazing job on Roman Polansky`s chart. That was very telling, it is such a shame this thread got derailed like it did.

"I am also considering the influence of the constellations on the tropical sign placements."
Where can I look up the constellations my planets fall into? I think it would be interesting.

EDIT:
As far as I read, ther eare certain areas of the zodiac that cannot become aSC at certain moments in the polar region (like you won`t find an ASC of 15 Taurus then), BUT at every moment and every place an ASC does exist.

posted October 03, 2009 03:41 PM         

Every chart that I do for the North and South Poles, which are 90 degrees North and 90 degrees South respectively, the Ascendant seems to remain at 0'00 Aries no matter what time I put in.

In regards to Roman Polanski, thank you.

The night before I posted, I was wondering about transiting Varuna was in exact trine to my Venus, but I didn't experience any event that fit the transit. I thought that maybe Varuna has to be in a hard aspect to a planet,point for an event to occur. From my studies in Cosmobiology,I believe that hard aspects have to do with events and the easy aspects are merely psychological conditions. Then the next day, I read about Polanski's arrest. I checked out his chart. Transiting Varuna happened to be conjunct his Moon less than 1 degree orb applying.

I wouldn't want a transiting transneptunian conjunct my Moon. There is a transneptunian object nicknamed "Snow White",and it is smaller than Sedna but larger than Orcus. It's supposed to be in early Pisces right now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_OR10
http://matrixpsedgwick.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/likely-new-dwarf-planet-2007-or10/

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted October 03, 2009 04:01 PM         

The Polar Problem in House Division

The idea of a division of the zodiac in houses arose in the Greco-Roman world, where the ezodiac stands high in the sky. However, some serious problems arise when one considers the Arctic and Antarctic regions (66.5° latitude onwards). They are collectively called the polar regions.

1. Ill-Defined Ascendant and Descendant

Since each system is based on the Ascendant and the Descendant, house division
becomes a problem when these are ill-defined. On the Arctic and Antarctic Circles, the ecliptic coincides with the horizon at a certain time of the day. This means that the Ascendant and the Descendant are either everywhere or nowhere. There is also no MC or IC. Since these four points form the basis of house division, it follows that houses cannot be defined.

Even when the ecliptic does not exactly coincide with the horizon, the situation becomes
critical if these circles almost coincide. The smallest inaccuracy in the time of birth can
lead to huge differences in house division.

Take for example 66.5 °
latitude. One minute before the ecliptic and horizon coincide, Houses X, XI, XII, IV, V and VI take up less than one-fourth of a degree. Just two minutes later, this changes drastically: they now fill up 359.7

2. No Ascendant / Stationary Ascendant

Inside the polar regions, a part of the zodiac never rises above the horizon. Hence,
certain signs can never be Ascendant there. Examples are northern Alaska, northern
Norway or Siberia. In these two places, the signs of Sagittarius and Capricorn never rise
above the horizon, while the opposite signs, Gemini and Cancer, always remain below
the horizon. Therefore, people born there cannot have these four signs as their
Ascendant. One of the questions to ask is whether a noticeable number of people walk
around in these regions without the characteristics of the signs of these Ascendants.

In the extreme case, on the north pole, the two intersections of the zodiac with the
horizon remain forever the same (the vernal and autumnal equinoxes). This means that
the signs Aries through Virgo are permanently above and the signs Libra through Pisces are permanently below the horizon. Not a single sign sets or rises, and the Ascendant is forever stationary. The situation is similar at the south pole.
www.math.nus.edu.sg/aslaksen/projects/kh-urops.pdf

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted October 03, 2009 04:13 PM         

"Inside the polar regions, a part of the zodiac never rises above the horizon. Hence,
certain signs can never be Ascendant there. Examples are northern Alaska, northern
Norway or Siberia. In these two places, the signs of Sagittarius and Capricorn never rise
above the horizon, while the opposite signs, Gemini and Cancer, always remain below
the horizon. Therefore, people born there cannot have these four signs as their
Ascendant"

Yes, I have read that, too. But this does only mean that certain signs can never rise, but not that an ASC is not defined. It just would fall into the other signs.

I guess the question is if we think it might be possible, that certain signs cannot be the rising degree at certain times and locations.
Personally, I think it is possible. But I understand everyone who thinks otherwise.

Well, for me the only logical conclusion (speaking for me personally only) definitely is to either use Whole Sign houses or equal system, even though I am more inclined to the equal system, maybe event he dual system: ASC-equal and MC-equal.

" I thought that maybe Varuna has to be in a hard aspect to a planet,point for an event to occur. From my studies in Cosmobiology,I believe that hard aspects have to do with events and the easy aspects are merely psychological conditions"
Yes, I agree. To be honest I have never really felt a sextile or trine from transiting planets UNLESS there was a midpoint picture involved at the same time.

For example: I thought I was feeling Transit Pluto sextile my Moon, even though it wsa surprisingly a rather challenging transit, which confronted me with my own emotional vulnerability.

I just recently realized that Transit Pluto was also squaring the midpoint of Moon/Chiron. (Moon is also widely sextile Chiron by 3 degree, and Transit Pluto was sextile Moon and trine Pluto).

.I wouldn't want a transiting transneptunian conjunct my Moon."
Neither would I. My Moon is in Aquarius, is there any transneptunian object close to 17 degree?

Well, I certainly didn`t like Transit Nessus conjunct my Moon, and he will return once more. Not particularly keen on it.

But the Transit Saturn squaring my Sun the last month was really one of the most difficult transits I ever experienced.
But maybe there is also something with the transnetunians going on that I am not aware of.

There is a transneptunian object nicknamed "Snow White",and it is smaller than Sedna but larger than Orcus."
Do you know what it means?
I have always felt very drawn to the fairy tale.

posted October 03, 2009 04:43 PM         

thanks for your response and your views. They are very appreciated. You have much better grasp with the mathematics of Astrology than I do.

Reading the article that I posted helped me understand why the Ascendant stays the same at the North and South Poles.

I am definitely going to stay with whole sign house system. It just seems that the notion that Ptolemy was a regular user of the equal house system is mistake, and he also used whole sign house system aspects. That's the same with the Hellenistic,Classical,and Vedic Astrologers. They use the whole sign house system and whole sign house aspects.

I read that the Midheaven problem was one of the reasons that quadrant house systems like Placidus and Koch were created, but they ignore the reality of the polar regions.

as for 2007 0R10 nicknamed "Snow White", it's too early to tell. that's only a nickname,and so that won't give a clue to its meaning. Haumea was nicknamed "Santa" and Makemake was nicknamed "Easterbunny",but it was actually named after a Polynesian deity worshipped by Rapanui on Easter Island. Eris was nicknamed "Xena",and it seems to match in regards to match in a way. I thought of "Xena" as having to do with equal rights before it was named Eris.

there is no transneptunian in 17 degrees Aquarius right now.

good point about transiting Pluto sextile Moon

My Moon in Pisces in 3'11 Pisces aspects the following bodies under 3 degrees:
trine Sun in 5'20 Scorpio
trine Ixion in 5'25 Scorpio
trine Quaoar in 2'22 Scorpio
sextile Sedna in 2'06 Taurus R
square Varuna in 3'01 Gemini R

so when transiting Pluto in Capricorn sextile my Moon,and I feel that it might be intense and challenging it, it could be because it's

squaring my Moon/Sedna midpoint in 2'39 Aries
conjunct my Moon/Quaoar midpoint in 2'47 Capricorn
conjunct my Sun/Moon midpoint in 4'16 Capricorn
conjunct my Moon/Ixion midpoint in 4'18 Capricorn

my Moon/Varuna midpoint is in 18'06 Aries,and so transiting Pluto wouldn't be aspecting that at the same time it aspects my Moon.

my Mercury is in 18'21 Scorpio,and so if a planet,point in Aries quincunxes my Mercury within 1 degree, it actually conjuncts my Moon/Varuna midpoint too.

during my grandfather's suicide, transiting Eris was in 18'09 Aries which I knew was quincunxing my Mercury. I didn't know that it was conjunct my Moon/Varuna midpoint too.
I knew that transiting Eris was semisquare my Moon with 1 minute of arc. It was also semisquare my Varuna very closely too. That's the thing with have Moon square Varuna with 10 minutes of arc. Transiting Eris formed an 8th harmonic triangle with my Moon square Varuna,and so conjuncting my Moon/Varuna midpoint with 3 minutes of arc separating. Transiting Ixion in 2'58 Sagittarius was opposing my Varuna and squaring my Moon for a t-square.

very interesting!

I will have to watch out for conjunctions,oppositions,and squares to my Moon/Varuna midpoint. Transiting Sun conjuncts my Moon/Varuna midpoint from October 10th to October 11th. I am going to attend the all day Brian L. Weiss Pastlife Regression workshop on October 11th too.

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted October 04, 2009 12:21 PM         

"ou have much better grasp with the mathematics of Astrology than I do."
That you think that, means much to me. Especially since I was always bad in mathematics at school.

But ever since starting doing astrology I tried to get a grasp of the mathematical and astronomocial dimension of it. Cause if I can`t explain it, then I haven`t really understood it. At least I felt like that.

But there are definitely limitations to my understanding.

"That's the same with the Hellenistic,Classical,and Vedic Astrologers. They use the whole sign house system and whole sign house aspects."§
Yes, that seems to be true.
Anyway I feel more comfortable with the equal system.

But I think, both, whole sign houses and equal system, are at least astronomically possible, and their difference is a theoretical and philosophical one.
To me it makes sense that "my own individual zodiac" starts with the moment of my birth, shown in the ASC. It`s like a projection of the "zodiac for all" (the signs) onto the very moment I was being born (my house-zodiac).
But I understand that other people have other opinions about that.
Well, at least the rulers will stay the same.

I also do not have a problem using the tropical zodiac, even though I find the sidereal as well as especially the constellations interesting, but I`ve always seen the zodiac like a "measure-circle" wrapped around the earth, which has been cut into 12 equal pieces by astrologers at one time (and yes I am aware that there have been different zodiacs with different pieces).

But the thing is they cut it into equal pieces. BUT the Sun doesn`t need an equal amount of time to move through the accompanying signs or constellations.

That led me to believe that the zodiac with the constellations was more of symbolical nature, and coincidentally when they cut the circle around earth into pieces those star-constellations were there against its backdrop, and for the purpose of an easier understanding they associated the mathematical pieces of the circle (30 degrees for a sign) with the constellations.
But their reference point really was the equally divided (imagined) circle around the earth; I think this might be the ecliptic.

So I think it comes down to the question:
Is the zodiac with its constellations really symbolical and the constellations itself aren`t the reference frame?
Then we can continue using tropical zodiac.

But of course it could also be that the constellations are really the important reference frame, and if that is true, then we actually would have to measure how long Sun takes to move through the constellations and have to do astrology according to that time, even if that means that Sun takes longer in Virgo than in Aquarius for example.

I hope I could describe what I mean without sounding too confused; it is hard enough to grasp these thoughts in German, but describing them in a foreign language is really difficult.