posted April 01, 2010 01:34 PM         

yeah

and makes it so controversial and widely viewed as pseudoscience and bogus by scientists,psychiatrists who see it as totally irrational and even based on outdated delusional perceptions. It's like how some people still view the Earth as being flat.

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Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted April 01, 2010 01:37 PM         

Just because I don't agree with you and express my alternative viewpoints doesn't mean that I am being rude and being a dick.

anybody can pull that game if a person doesn't agree with something.

Besides perceptions are relative

that's why there are so many religions,spiritual beliefs on this earth
just like there are so many methods,systems in Astrology.

Astrology is like religion in that way.

------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.

posted April 01, 2010 02:51 PM         

Shyamasundara Dasa

The Fallacy of the
trans-Saturnian Planets

Pandora’s Box

Presently in Western astrology there is a great welter of confusion caused by the introduction of these "planets." It started with Neptune, Uranus and Pluto but once Pandora’s box was opened they could not stay the flood. Now there are eight Uranian planets (used by the Cosmo-biologists): Cupido, Hades, Zeus, Kronos, Apollon, Admetos, Vulcanus and Poseidon; these planets are not physical entities but fictional. And sixteen asteroids commonly used: Ceres, Pallas, Juno, Vesta, Psyche, Eros, Lilith, Toro, Sappho, Amor, Pandora, Icarus, Diana, Hidalog, Urania and Chiron. Some authors have written books on individual asteroids and their placement in the chart. Then there is Trans-Pluto, also known as Bacchus, it supposedly lies beyond the orbit of Pluto and (as of this writing) has not been discovered yet! But some Western astrologers already delineate Bacchus’s meaning in charts and write books on it. If this assault on our Vedic sensibilities were not enough there is still more. A group of Western astrologers is in the process of cataloging about 2400(!) other "less" important asteroids, calculating ephemerides for them, naming them and giving them meanings. Then there are those who advocate the Vertex (a point calculated by spherical geometry) and such points as the Galactic center. Soon in Western astrology the chart will be so crowded with detritus that it would be more meaningful to scatter a handful of confetti and try to read that. Is this what we want to happen to the discipline of Vedic Astrology?

In 1987–88 when I worked at MATRIX software developing the first professional Vedic astrology software I became very familiar with Western astrology in all its phases. MATRIX had the most sophisticated Western astrology software and those programs contained every conceivable technique known to Western astrology. Some were so bizarre that I was baffled how anyone could possibly take them seriously.

Since MATRIX was in the business of writing software they had to please all their clients and to do so they incorporated all techniques. I once asked the senior astrologer-programmers what methods they used from the welter of "stuff" that they programmed. They replied that they used only transits, not even Secondary Directions (progressed charts) or Solar Returns! Then I asked them if they used the gaggle of asteroid-*** -planets mentioned above. They replied in the negative. They suggested that only "kooks" went in for such things and it was not the domain of serious astrologers. But I countered by saying that if they accepted Neptune, Uranus and Pluto why stop there? Pandora’s box has been opened and pandemonium reigned. Many of the so called New Age astrologers who use all the confetti planets accuse the others of being "fuddy duddies" for their conservative views. If the serious Western Astrologers really want to be consistent they should also give up Neptune, Uranus and Pluto.

MATRIX Software was (is) at the cutting edge of Western Astrology and many famous Western Astrologers would often come and visit. There were also several experienced Western astrologers on the MATRIX staff. Yet with all this talent in Western astrology, it was a tribute to Vedic astrology that all those who sought out astrological advice came to me. When I asked why, my clients said that they didn’t feel that Western astrology described them properly, etc. This superiority of Vedic astrology rests on several factors one of which rejects trans-Saturnian planets.
http://www.shyamasundaradasa.com/jyotish/resources/articles/fallacy_trans_saturnians/fallacy_trans-saturnians_1.html

------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.

posted April 01, 2010 03:09 PM         

Trines and sextiles should stay within a 3 degree orb since they're softer.

For me, the harder aspects (conjunction, opposition, square) seem to work up to 5 degrees.

But I agree with Comica on this point too:

quote:

---

Personally, I see aspects under 3ºdegrees as two objects directly affecting each other, while I see objects in wider aspects not directly affecting each other but still have psychological compatibility.

---

posted April 01, 2010 04:42 PM         

I have a sun/moon opposition with a guy - it's a 10' orb and i am pretty sure that i feel it. I am the sun person.
His sun is 10' is 10' in front of my moon and i'm sure he feels that too!

posted April 01, 2010 04:55 PM         

that depends on what zodiac that you use

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Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted April 01, 2010 05:53 PM         

BUT I would never buy a 10 degree orb. Not as an aspect anyway. As basic sign-compatibility / incompatibility of course yes.

I wouldn`t be surprised if there wasn`t another expression of Sun-Moon or Sun-Sun energy, and be it on the house-level, like ruler of 4th house aspecting ruler of 5th house, or Sun in 4th or 5th house or Moon in 5th house, or ruler of 4th house aspecting Sun or ruler of 5th house aspecting Sun or Moon.

posted April 01, 2010 06:22 PM         

I agree.

------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.

posted April 01, 2010 06:40 PM         

BTW before even checking synastric aspects I would suggest to make a thorough comparision of the natals first; this is actually the first step to access possible compatibility or attraction.

If I see something like:
His Mars in 8th house
Her Venus conjunct Pluto

I know that both have a strong Plutonian vibe regarding their relationship planets, in a complimentary sense (Venus, Mars). This alone indicates a possible attraction with "key-lock" character, and it will shine through.
Now if Mars and Venus also have aspects to each other (synastry), or are aspected by Pluto, falling into the 8th house, aspected by 8th house ruler, then I know that ther eis not only a potential basic compatibility / attraction, but that they also have a "channel" to express these energies, and then all it needs is a trigger (and a decision to let the energy flow) and you can get a very intense relationship, which touches them deeply inside (because each of them has a "Plutonic-need or side").

In this regard a Sun and Moon in the same sign would of course play a vital role.
But for an active expression they would need close interaspects, too, I think.
Such an interaspect could also be Sun/Moon= Sun or Moon for example.

Lara,

do you have a strong Sun/Moon-midpoint with this guy?

posted April 01, 2010 06:42 PM         

Sometimes aspects will be more pronounced even if they are wide. Other times they are not. I think it also depends if the person's chart is geared toward being susceptible to aspects from certain planets.
For example: Mars/Venus conjunctions do nothing for me. Even when tight. I have a Mars/Venus opposition in my own chart, so you'd think I'd feel that, but no, I do not.

Besides, how can one really isolate ONE aspect and be like, Ooooh yeah, I totally feel that?
How do you even know it's not something else, or a combination of other aspects?
You don't, not for sure.

posted April 01, 2010 06:50 PM         

but with that approach, it makes Astrology completely undisciplined without any structure. Without a structure, there is no real definite system.

It makes it more open to Astrology being criticized by skeptics that accuse us of making Astrology fit with what we want and what we believe.

It's easy for people who are attracted to certain types to say "damn...look at that Venus conjunct Mars over 10 degrees, I feel it..he must like me"

There is too much subjectivity any way you look at it no matter how you approach orbs or whatever else you use in Astrology.

especially if you list a whole bunch of asteroids that some people think are meaningful.

makes it hard for empirical method to work

------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted April 01, 2010 07:36 PM         

Got Gemini,

quote:

---

Me, I honestly go by if I feel it or not. If I feel it, it counts in my book.

---

I'm the same lol

posted April 02, 2010 01:33 AM         

When she referred to me as buddy, it was not in the way of being a friend. It was to confront me...like "listen,bucko...or listen,dude" and accused me of trying to convince her. It was not the affectionate way of addressing. It was a confrontational,retort type of way. I answered back with a retort and threw back what she told me in my face.

I express alternative viewpoints without needing to convince anybody.

Anything in Astrology can be questioned.

I laid down facts about Pluto in regards to Astronomy, and explained how relevant it is to Astrology. After all, astrologers use the objects that astronomers discover.

If it wasn't for astronomers, we wouldn't be using Uranus,Neptune,Pluto.

I prefer to be addressed by my nickname or my real name.

I don't think that I was rude. I was setting a boundary.

I don't go around calling people "buddy" or other things in a confrontation or to make a point. I don't call anybody names.

Not once did I tell anybody that I am right and that others are wrong. If anything, I tolerate and accept diversity. However, I will express alternative viewpoints about things which I feel are very valid.

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with what people say and giving reasons why I disagree. I constantly do that with Astrology. I have become skeptical of mainstream astrology, and I am open that I have been wrong for so many years for practicing it and open to change. However,I won't see anybody else for being wrong. I approach Astrology like I approach religion. To each,his or her own. I don't tell people what they should believe.

I think Astrology is a type of religion in a way. I think that it is a type of belief system. Skeptics point out that Astrology can be a religion. There is no recognized scientific basis for it. It's not recognized by scientific nor psychiatric communities.

Tell a psychiatrist what your Moon conjunct Neptune(just using as an example) means, and watch him write a prescription for an antipsychotic. Tell a scientist about it, and he will want you to prove it in some way through vigorous testing.

Heck...there is the 1 million dollar challenge that James Randi offered. Nobody has past the preliminary testing.

It's not like the greatest astrologers are putting themselves out there to get themselves tested by scientists even though they charge a large amount of money for their services.

I don't blame skeptics for questioning Astrology. When astrologers resist the change in regards to the solar system, it just adds more intensity to them questioned. Like I said before, mainstream astrologers aren't much different from Vedic Astrologers. Vedic Astrologers are resistant of the use of objects beyond Saturn as being meaningful in Astrology just like Mainstream Astrologers are resistant of the use of objects other than the luminaries,planets,nodes, and the kuiper belt object, Pluto which was not a planet.

I have Sun,Mercury,and Venus in Scorpio, and I don't give a damn that Pluto has been demoted as dwarf planet. If anything,I welcome it. It's about time. I knew that it was going to happen. The question wasn't "if." The question was "when" (answer August 2006) and "what led to it happening" (Discovery of Eris in 2005).

Pluto got the same treatment that Ceres did, thanks to Eris. Ceres is now promoted as dwarf planet and made Pluto's equal. How is that for women's rights? It's no coincidence that the women's rights organization, National Organization For Women was founded on October 29, 1966 when Sun was oppose/conjunct Geocentric,Heliocentric Nodes of Eris in Taurus/Scorpio. That was exactly 5 years before I was born. I have the same Sun-Eris Node configuration, and I am in process of founding a nonprofit neurodiversity organization.

In my opinion,Eris seems a lot about challenging the status quo. It's controversial,discordant to others that like things to remain that they are and even argue that the person with the alternative views are wrong. This applies to women's rights,gay rights,civil rights, and even neurodiversity rights.

I can't see myself using a 20th Century Astrology system when there really is a 21st Century Solar System.

------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted April 02, 2010 01:34 AM         

What is very interesting is that the hypothesis of Planet X was
derived from astronomical errors of Neptune's mass.

Planet X hypothesis to explain apparent discrepancies in the orbits of
the gas giants, particularly Uranus and Neptune,speculating that the
gravity of a large unseen planet could have perturbed Uranus enough to
account for the irregularities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluto http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_X

It was pretty much a stroke of luck or fate or even both that Tombaugh
discovered Pluto.

Pluto was in 00'12 South Ecliptic Latitude

That means that Pluto was on the Ecliptic at the time like the other
planets, making it easy for Clyde Tombaugh to find Pluto.

Pluto tends to orbit well off the ecliptic with it having up to 17
degree orbital tilt

Pluto in 18'40 Cancer Retrograde
Heliocentric North Pluto Node in 19'21 Cancer
Sedna in 16'13 Aries Retrograde

the retrograde could be about the misunderstanding of Pluto, but also
introspection that fit with psychology which Freud and Jung were
pioneers of.

Pluto was conjunct its North Node, and that's very significant. It
could indicate the discovery of Pluto in synchronicity with the
evolution,huge changes in consciousness

I also wonder if Pluto square Sedna might have something to do with
not only intense victimization but also madness

another thing, Moon was in Scorpio during its discovery

therefore, Moon in Scorpio and Pluto in Cancer were in mutual
reception. That is very significant. It would make sense that Pluto
was viewed as being Scorpionic by Western Astrologers.

Pluto was given the rulership of Scorpio by Western Astrologers.
Pluto's Perihelion (the nearest point of Pluto's orbit to the Sun)is in Scorpio.

conjunction of Sun in 29'24 Aquarius
Venus in 2'20 Pisces

oppose Neptune in 2'17 Virgo

Sun contraparallel Neptune - '23

so Pluto was discovered when Sun and Neptune were both oppose and
contraparallel each other (Sun-Neptune occultation) which indicates a
day of confusion,deception. This could fit with Pluto being mistook
for being a planet when it's actually the first of over a thousand kuiper
belt objects discovered.

Mercury in 3'25 Aquarius
North Lunar Nodes in 5'10 Taurus/Scorpio Stationary
Heliocentric Eris Nodes in 5'00 Taurus/Scorpio

As you see, the lunar nodes were not only stationary which means
strong lunar node energy and fits the significance of Pluto's
discovery, but they were also closely aligned with the heliocentric
Eris Nodes with only 10 minutes of arc. With the lunar nodes being
stationary, that alignment is extremely strong.

This shows that the discovery of Pluto was controversial and can
involve discord
It is also possible that astrologers have assigned some
characteristics of Eris to Pluto.

It took the discovery of larger Eris to get Pluto demoted to planet to
minor planet in Astronomy, being classed as a dwarf planet, and being
the prototype of the Plutoid classification which
Pluto,Eris,Haumea,and MakeMake belong to.

the South Lunar Node is conjunct Saturn/Neptune midpoint with 28
minutes of arc applying which can add to the emphasis of the
deception,confusion of Pluto's discovery and being viewed as a planet,
but also that Pluto might be involved in suffering,illness with Saturn/
Neptune midpoint being a midpoint associated with suffering,illness

Mercury was conjunct the Sun/Saturn midpoint, and that might indicate
that Pluto might have been seen as "Bad News"

Saturn in 8'56 Capricorn
Uranus in 9'04 Aries

Saturn square Uranus could indicate conflict between the old and the
new, changing,breaking away from boundaries, but even resisting change

also Saturn/Uranus midpoint is said to Chiron-Sensitive for Chiron
links the orbits of Saturn and Uranus.

When I see this chart, I am convinced that Pluto should not be viewed
as a planet.......especially with it being discovered during Sun-
Neptune opposition/contraparallel

as you know, hard Neptune aspects can be about things aren't always
what they seem
like Pluto is not what it seems for it has been believed to be a
planet,and it is found to not be one.

Pluto is a pioneer in that it was the first transneptunian object
discovered.
It does have a powerful astrological influence, but that could also be
said of the other large transneptunians after years of studying them.

Ceres was once classed as a planet, but it was stripped of its
planethood because it was found to be one of many asteroids that
number into hundreds of thousands.

In mythology, Ceres/Demeter's daughter,Proserpina/Persephone was abducted by her
brother,Pluto/Hades to be his queen.
Later on, Ceres/Demeter and Pluto/Hades shared Proserpina/Persephone for equal amount of time.

Eris' orbit is Persephone-like for it orbits well away from Pluto for
half of its time. Eris' discoverer, Michael Brown pointed that out. He even thought it would be a suitable name for it,but the name was already given to an asteroid. The same with Proserpina. It
was Eris discovery that led to Pluto and Ceres being made equals as
dwarf planets in Astrology. Those are 2 reasons that I believe that
Eris has to do with equality matters. Eris' Perihelion is in Libra.

I believe that the aspects of Ceres are important. I mean, Pluto given
the honor of being a planet would seem to add insult to Ceres'
demotion.

I couldn't help noticing that Sun square Geocentric North Ceres Node
in 28'59 Taurus.

Jupiter in 6'55 Gemini
Ceres in 7'23 Gemini

Jupiter conjunct Ceres could be expansion involving nurturing, but
also letting go (emptying mother's nest). It could also mean that some
of Ceres' traits have been assigned to Pluto.

In Right Ascension:

Venus in 4'50 Pisces
Neptune in 4'30 Virgo
Ceres in 5'15 Gemini
Jupiter in 5'10 Gemini

Ceres-Jupiter as the apex of a t-square, squaring the opposition of
Venus-Neptune

To me, this seems like Ceres being judgmental,scratching her head,and
going "WTF......How come Pluto is classed as a planet,and I am
not?.....that's not fair"

In Heliocentric:

Earth in 29'24 Leo
Ceres in 29'03 Gemini

Earth sextile Ceres could indicate the possibility that Pluto might
have a Ceres type of influence and that some of Ceres' traits have
been given to Pluto

Mars in 9'20 Aquarius
Chiron in 10'04 Taurus

Mars in close square to Chiron seems to indicate Pluto has to do with
anger,violence connected to pain,wounding. It could be about healing
anger connected to wounds,pain in the past. Interestingly, Steven
Forrest talked about Pluto being the wounded healer. This
configuration seems to confirm that.

there is more,

Sun in 29'24 Aquarius
Heliocentric Chiron Nodes in 28'35 Libra/Aries

Sun trine/sextile Heliocentric Chiron Nodes could also be a
confirmation that Pluto is a wounded healer of sorts

On a hunch, I also checked to see if there were any personal planets
in aspect to the large plutinos, Ixion or Orcus. Plutinos have 3:2
orbital resonance with Neptune which means for every time, Neptune
orbits 3 times, Pluto and its plutinos orbit twice. Orcus is Etruscan
God of Death. Some say equivalent to Pluto. Some say Roman version of
Thanatos, the Greek God of Death. Ixion is named after a wicked, lusty
king that was given the punishment of being bound to a flaming wheel
for his audacity to think that he can sex with Hera,the queen of the
Greek deities. He is the father of the wild,lusty centaurs. Ixion was
even discovered in Sagittarius,the centaur sign.

In Heliocentric chart:

Mercury in 21'30 Scorpio
Orcus in 24'10 Taurus

Mercury oppose Orcus makes me think of intense,morbid thoughts as
thoughts of death as well as deep,psychological thinking

Mars in 25'23 Capricorn
Ixion in 25'37 Virgo

Mars trine Ixion seems to point to the passion, sexuality of Pluto.

Eris in 1'12 Aries
Varuna in 00'59 Aries
Haumea in 2'03 Leo

Eris conjunct Varuna with 12 minutes of arc seems very significant.
Two large kuiper belt objects closely conjunct each other, and they
are trine by Plutoid, Haumea
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q112/Astynaz/DiscoveryofPlutoRight... http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q112/Astynaz/TheDiscoveryofPluto.gif http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q112/Astynaz/TheDiscoveryofPlutoHe...

kuiper belt objects, pluto nodes,eris nodes were found in Solar Fire

can be calculated here http://megadelfi.com/~jonathan/

------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted April 02, 2010 05:06 PM         

trines:5
sext:5
conj:8
opp:8
sq:6 but usually 5
kinkunx:4-5