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Author Topic:   Orbs
The Duke
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posted April 01, 2010 03:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Duke     Edit/Delete Message
i've read that the tighter the orbs, the better.. which is true.. but when personal planets are affected, is it safer to widen the orb some? for anyone that actually has studied this for quite some time, how many degrees do you allow for each individual planet and could you list them please?

astronomically speaking, some may think that the more personal the planet, the better but actually, jupiter, sends out more energy than the sun itself.. something to keep in mind and also one of the reasons why im posting this.

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Ami Ann
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posted April 01, 2010 03:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Ann     Edit/Delete Message
That is really interesting.How did you find out that about Jupiter?
What about the other planets?
Is there an order of the amount of energy they send out?
I would have thought Pluto sent out the most but maybe you don't feel Pluto until it is very close and THEN--wow--you feel it.

Ami

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comica23
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posted April 01, 2010 07:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for comica23     Edit/Delete Message
Personally, I see aspects under 3ºdegrees as two objects directly affecting each other, while I see objects in wider aspects not directly affecting each other but still have psychological compatibility.

3º degrees is also the maximum degree I'd use to see if something seems fated or not (since fated aspects should have a fated orb).

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Venus De Milo
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posted April 01, 2010 08:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Venus De Milo     Edit/Delete Message
i've gone back and forth on this, and can only go on my personal experience. most people here will tell you to use as tight an orb as possible, or even that anything outside of 1 degree is invalid, and i did follow that for a long time, but i just find it not to be true.

of course, for some things like asteroids and mid-points, only a 1 degree orb would be valid, because otherwise you'd be all over the place.

i've personally had powerful connections with people where we haven't had ANY 1 degree aspects, so this is why i abandoned this super strict ruling.

for example, i had a flirtation with someone for a really long time. i was so powerfully attracted to this man. he was married, so nothing ever happened. but whoah!!! it was so hard to ignore. it was that feeling like "oh my god, this person just floats my f$cking boat, when they walk into the room, i can't turn away, he's EXACTLY my type! perfect man! lucky wife!" kind of thing.

well, he has mars at 12 of aquarius. i have the sun and mars at 4 & 5 of aquarius. we really didn't have much else going on.

there are other examples, but that's my quick one. you can't tell me that i didn't feel his mars conjunct my sun. but its a wide orb.

if he was single, i would have tore him up!!!! LOL!!!!

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DD
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posted April 01, 2010 08:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DD     Edit/Delete Message
I`m with Comica on this one.

Also, I would check progressed synastry. Usually if outer planets aspects at wider orb are strongly felt, they have become closer int he progressions.

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The Duke
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posted April 01, 2010 08:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Duke     Edit/Delete Message
hmmm... so we're using like 8 for the sun and gettin smaller as we spread out? when i got my first natal chart done the astrologer used only an orb of 5 degrees but i noticed a little more for planets aspecting the sun.. i agree with the midpoints. never have i been so strict to consider 1 degree aspects to that extent but have experienced it several times. by any chance comica, were any of your other planets affected as well?

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Got Gemini?
Knowflake

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posted April 01, 2010 08:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Got Gemini?     Edit/Delete Message
Me, I honestly go by if I feel it or not. If I feel it, it counts in my book. But if someone asked me to look at a synastry for them (I am no expert lol!) I do try to keep everything to within 5˚.

------------------
Virgo Asc 6˚& Mars 0˚
Gemini Sun 24˚
Libra Moon 14˚(conjunct Pluto 0˚ in 2nd house)
Gemini Mercury 25˚
Cancer Venus 29˚ (Mutual reception with Moon)
And yes, i'm a guy!

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DD
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posted April 01, 2010 08:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DD     Edit/Delete Message
The thing about the "I feel it" is a tricky one, as you can never really be sure if it`s EXACTLY That aspect you are feeling, or if something else is "meddling" in, something that you failed to notice up till now.

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Got Gemini?
Knowflake

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posted April 01, 2010 08:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Got Gemini?     Edit/Delete Message
I hear you DD, this is why I don't even look at a synastry anymore until a relationship is WELL established. I won't use that formula with looking at other people's synastry though (friends and family).

I only use it with me and whoever I have a relationship with at the time.

------------------
Virgo Asc 6˚& Mars 0˚
Gemini Sun 24˚
Libra Moon 14˚(conjunct Pluto 0˚ in 2nd house)
Gemini Mercury 25˚
Cancer Venus 29˚ (Mutual reception with Moon)
And yes, i'm a guy!

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DD
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posted April 01, 2010 09:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DD     Edit/Delete Message
GG,

that is the reason I am using fairly tight orbs. With them I can be certain they will be in effect.

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The Duke
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posted April 01, 2010 09:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Duke     Edit/Delete Message
well but how tight DD?

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Glaucus
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posted April 01, 2010 09:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
The problem is that orbs are hotly debated in Astrology. I read that when I first started studying Astrology in 1998.

The thing is that the major aspects are the same aspects by Ptolemy, and he used aspects by sign. He didn't use any orbs for aspects. He also used the whole sign house system. Vedic Astrologers use whole sign aspects too. However, they use special aspects with Mars,Saturn,and Jupiter. All planets aspect the 7th houses from themselves. Additionally, Mars aspects 4th and 8th houses. Saturn aspects 3rd and 10th houses. Jupiter aspects 5th and 9th houses.


There is so much that is disagreed on by astrologers that it leaves Astrology to be be greatly criticized.


Every astrologer has his his/her own way of looking at things. Astrologers use what is best for him or her. He can be easy to see so patterns in the chart. People do it with numbers,cards,tealeaves...heck..maybe even with feces. They did it with the entrails of animals.


So much is relative in Astrology.

Albert Einstein known for his theory of relativity had Eris conjunct Midheaven which was square Moon. He had Mercury conjunct Eris in Right Ascension. He also had Mercury conjunct Sedna too.


As for me, I use the orbs that Robert Hand laid out in his book,HOROSCOPE SYMBOLS.
He considered also the minor aspects, declinations, and midpoints in his work.
Those can account for any wide aspects. Right Ascension can too,and he never went over it in his book. I believe that it's highly underestimated coordinate in Astrology. He uses no more than 5 degrees for major aspects except sextile that gets 3 degrees.

I have already seen some people say that they can identify with squares over 7 degrees. If that's the case, then they identify with the triundecile which is 11th harmonic. Maybe minor aspects aren't necessarily so subtle that people can't feel them. Maybe people that are ultrasensitive can feel them because they are highly sensitive to subtleties.


Astrology is based on mathematics. Modern Astrology is based far on Geometry than Traditional Astrology is. Astrological systems like Cosmobiology and Magi Astrology are far more Geometrical than Mainstream Astrology of today.


Astrology keeps changing and changing. The proof is with the addition of Uranus,Neptune,Pluto,and Chiron. Some astrologers use asteroids. Some use centaurs. Some use transneptunians. Some use fixed stars. Some use deep space objects like blackholes. Some astrologers use heliocentric Astrology. Some use nodes of other objects besides the Moon. Some use Declinations. Some use Right Ascension. Heck..some even use hypothetical objects. People that use them don't agree with the orbs used.


Sometimes, I wonder myself if I am fooling myself and others when I do Astrology because there is no evidence that Astrology even works. It's not recognized by the scientific and psychiatric communities just like metaphysical things aren't. Maybe I am delusional. If that's the case, I am in the same club with many people that are into religion. There is no evidence for God either.

Astrology is like a religion in that there is so much diversity in the field. There are so many things to choose what works for the person but leads to disagreement by others who don't work with those things. It's hard to reach a consensus on what works. Astrology is hard to put under a microscope because of its metaphysical connections.


so what it all comes down to:

to each,his/her own

------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
http://people.tribe.net/4b0cf8c4-1fc3-4171-92d3-b0915985bf95/blog

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The Duke
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posted April 01, 2010 10:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Duke     Edit/Delete Message
alright! this has been productive.. so wing it, for anybody else out there that's reading.

for sun: i'll be allowing 7 degrees from now on
mercury: 3-5
venus: 7
mars: 5
jupiter: possibly 8
saturn: 4
uranus: 3 or 4
neptune: 3
pluto: however much pluto wants, actually..

one never argues with pluto.

i feel more comfortable allowing wider orbs for the more personal planets and maybe even more depending if they're dignified or exalted.. especially if they fall in the northern hemisphere of the chart and not the southern.

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Glaucus
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posted April 01, 2010 11:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
"pluto: however much pluto wants, actually..

one never argues with pluto."


I argue with Pluto. It's not even a planet. It's one of over thousand objects in the transneptunian region. Clyde Tombaugh found it while looking for Planet X. For many years until the discovery of Pluto's Moon, Charon, Pluto was thought to be as large as our Earth. That was one of the reasons why Pluto was thought to be a planet.

Later on, astronomers realized that the calculations of Planet X was based on errors in measuring the orbit of Neptune. There is no scientific basis for Planet X. Tombaugh actually discovered Pluto by accident. With Pluto orbiting on the ecliptic at the time made it possible for Tombaugh to discover Pluto. Pluto tends to orbit well off the ecliptic unlike the planets and that's one of the things that make Pluto unusual compared to all planets. It's inclination is 17 degrees from the ecliptic.
Makemake was just 2 degrees from the ecliptic at the time of Pluto's discovery, but it would have been hard to detect with it being behind a backdrop of stars. Makemake was discovered in 2005.

It was not until 1992, astronomers discovered that Pluto was not the object that orbits beyond Neptune. They kept finding more and more objects. Then they started finding big transneptunian objects in 2000. The larger the object, the more it increased the debate of whether Pluto is a planet or not. That finally escalated to its maximum when Dr. Michael Brown discovered an object that was larger than Pluto. Astronomers were forced to come up with a definition of what a planet is. They came up with proposals that would have included other big transneptunian objects and some asteroids which would lead to 12 planets in our solar system. Then it was decided that there would be only 8 planets in our solar system with Pluto demoted. A new dwarf planet classification was created. Pluto,Eris,and Ceres were thrown in that classification. They didn't make the cut as planets because they didn't have enough mass and size to clear their neighborhood belt of objects. Both Pluto and Eris as kuiper belt objects didn't have enough mass and size to clear the kuiper belt. Ceres didn't have enough mass and size to clear the main asteroid belt located between Mars and Jupiter. Ceres along with Juno,Pallas,and Vesta were classed as planets before they got stripped of their planetary status after it was found that they were not planets but just a few of a new class of objects. That was found to be the case with Pluto. Ceres was classed as a planet before Pluto was discovered. For 70 years, Ceres was below Pluto in status. Now, Ceres and Pluto are equals after Eris' discovery. It makes sense for Eris to be not only about discord,debate,controversy, but also equality. Eris' orbit is Persephone-like (half of its period,orbits away from Pluto, the other half very near Pluto). Other big transneptunian objects, Makemake and Haumea joined Pluto,Eris,and Ceres as dwarf planets. Pluto,Eris,Makemake,and Haumea are classed as Plutoids because they are transneptunian dwarf planets. Ceres is unique in that it's the only asteroid that is a dwarf planet. Ceres,Pallas,and Vesta are actually protoplanets aka planetary embryos.

Many objects meet the criteria of dwarf planets.

according to Dr. Michael Brown, these following transneptunian objects meet the criteria for dwarf planet:

2004TY364
2002KX14
2002XV93
2003VS2
1999TC36
2001QF298
Orcus
2003AZ84
Pluto
Ixion
Huya
2005RN43
1995SM55
2002MS4
2004SB60
2004GV9
2002UX25
Varuna
2002TX300
1996TO66
2003OP32
2003EL61 (Haumea)
Quaoar
2003QW90
1999CD158
1997CS29
2000CN105
1998WH24
2005FY9 (Makemake)
2004PR107
2003MW12
2002CY248
2002KW14
2002AW197
2002WC19
2003QX113
2003FY128
2001UR163
2002TC302
1999DE9
2004XR190
2000YW134
Eris
2005RM43
Sedna
http://web.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/dwarfplanets/


If an astrologer uses any orb for Pluto, then why not use any orb for all the others that meet dwarf planet criteria. Heck...why not use any orb for all of the kuiper belt objects. Size doesn't matter... right? Many astrologers always make that point, but they ignored other kuiper objects until finally Eris was discovered. Eris is larger than Pluto,and it got Pluto demoted.


who is to say that the influences of Pluto aren't actually influence of other kuiper belt objects that number over 1000?

also when it comes to Pluto and other kuiper belt objects,

the difference between Ecliptic Longitude (the regular coordinate in Astrology) and Right Ascension (Equatorial Longitude) can be great.


in my own chart:

Ecliptic Longitude:
Pluto in 0'51
Midheaven in 11'14 Gemini
(not in orb for a trine)


Right Ascension:
Pluto in 7'10 Libra
Midheaven in 9'40 Gemini
(a trine within 3 degree orb)


There is a person that has wide Moon square Pluto,and she has an almost exact Moon parallel Pluto.


Right Ascension can easily account for wide orb Pluto aspects. It's not that the object has a lot of power. It's because it's already in aspect in another coordinate. Mainstream Astrologers look at the sky like it's actually a piece of paper when they look at only the ecliptic longitude coordinates. The sky can be viewed from many angles. It can even depend on on location of the observer as in horizon coordinates. That's how parans are used. Star paran method is one of of the oldest astrological methods. Stars didn't get projected onto the ecliptic until Ptolemy recorded the stars according to their longitude that helped with precession. They weren't intended to use in Astrology. He recorded it in his book on Astronomy, and Astrologers used them for their practice. They eventually got modified. The ecliptic projections that astrologers use today aren't the same method that Ptolemy recorded.

Mainstream Astrologers aren't that different from the Vedic Astrologers who don't use objects that orbit beyond Saturn.
It's the same type of approach,ideology,mentality. It's the same type of mentality that Christoper Columbus was challenged by when he said the world was round. It's the same type of mentality that Galileo was challenged by when he said that the Earth evolved around the Sun and not the other way around.

New discoveries lead to progression in science and correct longstanding assumptions that are proven to be false.


------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
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Glaucus
Knowflake

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posted April 01, 2010 12:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message

Trans-Neptunian object

A trans-Neptunian object (TNO; also written transneptunian object) is any object in the Solar System that orbits the Sun at a greater distance on average than Neptune. The Kuiper belt, scattered disk, and Oort cloud are three divisions of this volume of space.[1]

The first trans-Neptunian object to be discovered was Pluto in 1930. It took more than 60 years to discover, in 1992, a second trans-Neptunian object, (15760) 1992 QB1, with only the discovery of Pluto's moon Charon before that in 1978. Since then however, over 1,000 trans-Neptunian objects have been discovered, differing in sizes, orbits, and surface composition. 198 of these (as of November, 2009) have their orbit well enough determined that they are given a permanent minor planet designation.[2][3]

The largest known trans-Neptunian object is Eris (discovered in 2005), followed by Pluto, Makemake and Haumea.


Discovery of Pluto

The orbit of each of the planets is affected by the gravitational influences of all the other planets. Discrepancies in the early 1900s between the observed and expected orbits of Uranus and Neptune suggested that there were one or more additional planets beyond Neptune (see Planet X). The search for these led to the discovery of Pluto in 1930. However, Pluto was too small to explain the discrepancies, and revised estimates of Neptune's mass showed that the problem was spurious.

Pluto was easiest to find because it has the highest apparent magnitude of all known trans-Neptunian objects. It also has a lower inclination to the ecliptic than most other large TNO's.

Discovery of other trans-Neptunian objects

After Pluto's discovery, no one searched for further TNOs for a long time. Indeed, it was generally believed that Pluto was the only major object of the Kuiper belt. Only after the discovery of a second TNO, (15760) 1992 QB1, in 1992, systematic searches for further such objects began. A broad strip of the sky around the ecliptic was photographed and digitally evaluated for slowly-moving objects. Hundreds of TNOs were found, with diameters in the range of 50 to 2500 kilometers.

Eris

Eris is the largest known trans-Neptunian object. Currently lying at 97 AU away, Eris is one of the farthest known objects in the solar system, and the third brightest of the TNOs. Classified as a scattered disk object (SDO), Eris follows an orbit at 10 billion kilometres from the Sun, completing it in 560 years at an unusual 45-degree angle.


Distribution and classification

According to their distance from the Sun and their orbit parameters, TNOs are classified in two large groups:
Distribution of trans-Neptunian Objects.

* The Kuiper belt contains objects with an average distance to the sun of 30 to about 55 AU, usually having close-to-circular orbits with a small inclination from the ecliptic. Kuiper belt objects are further classified into the following two groups:
o Resonant objects are locked in an orbital resonance with Neptune. Objects with a 1:2 resonance are also called twotinos, and objects with a 2:3 resonance are called plutinos, after their most prominent member, Pluto.
o Classical Kuiper belt objects (also called cubewanos) have no such resonance, moving on almost circular orbits, unperturbed by Neptune. Examples are 1992 QB1, 50000 Quaoar and Makemake.

* The scattered disk contains objects further from the Sun, usually with very irregular orbits (i.e. very elliptical and having a strong inclination from the ecliptic). A typical example is the largest known TNO, Eris.

The diagram to the right illustrates the distribution of known trans-Neptunian objects (up to 70 AU) in relation to the orbits of the planets and the Centaurs for reference. Different classes are represented in different colours. Resonant objects (including Neptune Trojans) are plotted in red, cubewanos in blue. The scattered disk extends to the right, far beyond the diagram, with known objects at mean distances beyond 500 AU (Sedna) and aphelia beyond 1000 AU ((87269) 2000 OO67).

Notable trans-Neptunian objects
Comparison of Eris, Pluto, Makemake, Haumea, Sedna, Orcus, 2007 OR10, Quaoar, and Earth (all to scale).

* 134340 Pluto, a dwarf planet.

* Charon, the largest moon of Pluto.

* (15760) 1992 QB1, the prototype cubewano, the first Kuiper belt object discovered after Pluto and Charon.
* 1998 WW31, the first binary Kuiper belt object discovered after Pluto and Charon.
* (15874) 1996 TL66, the first object to categorized as a scattered disk object.
* (48639) 1995 TL8 has a very large satellite and is the earliest discovered scattered disc object.
* 1993 RO, the next plutino discovered after Pluto.
* 20000 Varuna and 50000 Quaoar, large cubewanos.
* 90482 Orcus and 28978 Ixion, large plutinos.
* 90377 Sedna, a distant object, classified in a new category named Extended scattered disc (E-SDO),[4] detached objects,[5] Distant Detached Objects (DDO)[6] or Scattered-Extended in the formal classification by DES[7]
* 136108 Haumea[8], a dwarf planet, the fourth largest known trans-Neptunian object. Notable for its two known satellites and unusually short rotation period (3.9 h).[9]
* 136199 Eris, dwarf planet, a scattered disk object, currently the largest known trans-Neptunian object. One known satellite, Dysnomia.
* 136472 Makemake[10], dwarf planet, a cubewano, the third largest known trans-Neptunian object
* 2004 XR190, a scattered disk object following unusual, highly inclined but circular orbit.
* (87269) 2000 OO67 and (148209) 2000 CR105, remarkable for their eccentric orbits and large aphelia.
* IAU Minor Planet Center provisional designation 2008 KV42 and temporary nickname "Drac". The first retrograde TNO. Orbital inclination i = 104 deg, semimajor axis is a sime 42 AU, the perihelion distance is q~21 AU. Discovered 31st May, 2008
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Neptunian_object


Here is a list of all the transneptunian objects. Pluto has lots of buddies.
It's not a loner no type of way. http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/iau/lists/TNOs.html

------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.

http://people.tribe.net/4b0cf8c4-1fc3-4171-92d3-b0915985bf95/blog

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DD
Knowflake

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posted April 01, 2010 12:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DD     Edit/Delete Message
I have chosen my orb in regard to how long approximately a fullmoon (according to astronomers) lasts.
If you calculate the time back into degrees, it will be three degrees applying and three degrees separating.
So three degrees are my "basic orb", no matter if for synastry or for natal - actually I do not understand why we should differentiate the orbs between synastry or natal - the reason some astrologers divide the natal orb by 2 is only because they can`t handle the mass of aspects that they will find, but so far I have not yet found a logical reason or explanation, why a synastry should have a narrower orb.


I expand the basic orb of three degree sometimes to 5 degree for a conjunction of personal planets or angles (Sun-Mars, ASC, MC), and I also take into account if there is a "chain" - meaning something like this:

Mars: 5 Sagittarius
ASC: 7 Sagittarius
Neptune: 10 Sagittarius
NN: 10 Sagittarius

I consider Mars being conjunct Neptune, even thought he orb is pretty wide with 5 degrees, but since ASC is conjunct Mars as well as Neptune, it connects these two.

Of course ASC is also on the exact midpoint of Mars/Neptune.

Also if two planets are widely conjunct and parallel each other the conjunction / paralllel might still be felt.

an example of a synastry:

His Venus conjunct her Mars by almost 8 degrees (I definitely would NOT count this usually).

But his Venus is parallel her Mars by only 9 minutes of arc, AND his Venus/Mars-midpoint is exact conjunct her Mars (and ASC) AND there is a "conjunction-chain" of

her Mars conjunct his Neptune (0 degrees)
his Neptune conjunct her ASC (0°)
her ASC conjunct his ASC (2°)
his ASC conjunct her NN and Neptune(0°)
her NN and Neptune conjunct his Venus (3°)

In this case I`d think that there is a connection between her Mars and his Venus, even though it is not a direct one (through conjunction), but one that includes, Neptune, ASC and NN, too.


So, even though I usually stick to my basic orb of 3 degrees, I would check for:

- direct aspects (conjunction, square, trine, sextile etc.)
- midpoint configurations
- parallels / contraparallels
- antiscion / contrascion

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Glaucus
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posted April 01, 2010 12:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message

There are a lot of objects that are similar to Pluto in its orbital features. They are Plutinos.


In astronomy, a plutino is a trans-Neptunian object in 2:3 mean motion resonance with Neptune. For every 2 orbits that a plutino makes, Neptune orbits 3 times. Plutinos are named after Pluto, which follows an orbit trapped in the same resonance, with the Italian diminutive suffix -ino. The name refers only to the orbital resonance and does not imply common physical characteristics; it was invented to describe those bodies smaller than Pluto (hence the diminutive) following similar orbits. The class includes Pluto itself and its moons.

Plutinos form the inner part of the Kuiper belt and represent about a quarter of the known Kuiper Belt objects (KBOs). Plutinos are the largest class of the resonant trans-Neptunian objects (i.e. bodies in orbital resonances with Neptune).

Aside from Pluto itself and Charon, the first plutino, 1993 RO, was discovered on September 16, 1993.

The largest plutinos that are dwarf planet candidates include:

Orcus
2003 VS72
2003 AZ84
Ixion
Huya
2003 UZ413


Origin

It is thought that objects that are currently in mean orbital resonances with Neptune initially followed independent heliocentric paths. During Neptune’s migration (see origins of the Kuiper belt), the objects have been caught into the resonances sweeping outward.[1]

Orbital characteristics

While the majority of plutinos have low orbital inclinations, a substantial number of them follow orbits similar to that of Pluto, with inclinations in the 10-25° range and eccentricities around 0.2-0.25, resulting in perihelia inside (or close to) the orbit of Neptune and aphelia close to the main Kuiper belt's outer edge (where objects have 1:2 resonance with Neptune).

The orbital periods of plutinos cluster around 247.3 years (1.5 x Neptune's orbital period), varying by at most a few years from this value.
The distribution of plutinos. Small inserts show histograms for the distribution of orbital inclinations and eccentricity.

Unusual plutinos include:

* 2005 TV189, which follows the most highly inclined orbit (34.5°)
* (15875) 1996 TP66, which has the most elliptical orbit (its eccentricity is 0.33), with the perihelion halfway between Uranus and Neptune.
* 2007 JH43 following a quasi-circular orbit
* 2002 VX130 lying almost perfectly on the ecliptic (inclination less than 1.5°)

Long-term stability

The gravitational influence of Pluto is usually neglected given its small mass. However, the resonance width (the range of semi-axes compatible with the resonance) is very narrow and only a few times larger than Pluto’s Hill sphere (gravitational influence). Consequently, depending on the original eccentricity, some plutinos will be driven out of the resonance by interactions with Pluto.[2] Numerical simulations suggest that plutinos with the eccentricity 10%-30% smaller or bigger than that of Pluto are not stable in Ga timescales.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutino



------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.

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Glaucus
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posted April 01, 2010 12:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
"So three degrees are my "basic orb", no matter if for synastry or for natal - actually I do not understand why we should differentiate the orbs between synastry or natal - the reason some astrologers divide the natal orb by 2 is only because they can`t handle the mass of aspects that they will find, but so far I have not yet found a logical reason or explanation, why a synastry should have a narrower orb."

Good point! come to think of it, Magi Astrologers,Cosmobiologists,nor Hamburg School Astrologers do that.


I believe that the transSaturnian objects are different story...especially when you consider their orbital periods until you get to Sedna with its orbit of over 10,000 years.

In natal charts,3 degrees is the maximum orb that I use for asteroids,centaurs,dwarf planets/dwarf planet candidates including Pluto.

small transneptunians get 1 degree and may vary..some might get 2 degrees.

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Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

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DD
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posted April 01, 2010 12:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DD     Edit/Delete Message
Glaucus,

I agree on the transneptunians. I think they should have a narrower orb. Actually I start narrowing the orb with Uranus and regarding the Transneptunians I trust your judgement, as you ahve more experience with them than I have.

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The Duke
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posted April 01, 2010 12:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Duke     Edit/Delete Message
looking at it from a metaphysical point of view, pluto was discovered first.. whether there are others like it or not does not change the fact that human consciousness was first aware of pluto and not any of the rest.. and even so, looking around now, as the rest are being discovered, we're seeing lots of plutonic activity here on earth.

we're seeing not only drastic changes on earth (nor our country) but also on every other country and how they're affected so deeply by our economy.. not to mention the 'global warming' fiasco and how apparently it's something (if it is happening at all) that is taking place on every planet and not just this one.

terrorism has taken a new role. it is no longer just guns or dangerous weapons but now, they're extremely small things such as bottles containing more than 3 oz of fluid when passing airport security.. indeed pluto does have friends but it does not change the fact that pluto is the one that opened the door for friends and suddenly deciding that it is no longer significant seems redundant.. especially if the others that are newly being discovered are going to be considered significant now, if even, at all.

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Glaucus
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posted April 01, 2010 01:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
How do we know that is even Pluto's influence?

Itt could be corresponding to the discoveries of Pluto's buddies that number over 1,000 including especially the other big transneptunians objects including Eris.


It can be argued that anything in Astrology works because of Forer,Barnum Effects.


If a person looks hard enough, he/she can see anything and make it work.


Look at how Uranian Astrologers use hypothetical planets in their system and are strongly convinced that they work even though they haven't been confirmed to exist and have orbits that are totally unnatural.

Anything in Astrology can be questioned.

It's not hard to be skeptical of Astrology and question its validity, especially when there is so much disagreement among astrologers. I definitely get skeptical of Mainstream Astrology.

I am starting to view Mainstream Astrology as Vedic Astrology, especially when it comes to clinging onto outdated views of how the solar system works.


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Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
http://people.tribe.net/4b0cf8c4-1fc3-4171-92d3-b0915985bf95/blog

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The Duke
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posted April 01, 2010 01:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Duke     Edit/Delete Message
well buddy look, i dont mean to come off as disrespectful or insulting because i actually value your input and believe you have a lot of knowledge on the subject but i do have to ask, who are you trying to convince? personally, i dont feel that anyone here is a skeptic or trying to prove astrology to anyone else.. everyone is here because they find something in it already as it is so questioning whether it is something that can be proven of just fanciness for the human mind, especially on a site such as this, is proving exactly what?

personally, i dont like vedic astrology. i don't like where their base is and how it's not changing with our perspective. i also find it strongly influenced by negativity.

mainstream astrology can be duped just as mainstream music is currently being but im not involved in mainstream astrology. im involved in learning whatever i can and so are plenty of other people here. each can make their own truth that will help them along their path. that's what i believe astrology to be. im not here to argue it's validity, it's just bound to give u a headache in the long run.. one that may not even be worth it.

there is lots that is being fed into the news and in through your ears by someone who may have little to no idea what the hell they're speaking about but still, it's going through regardless and sometimes it sticks. does it really do much damage to a person to go out and choose what to fill their mind with whether it is based on 'fact' or not as is? if anything, i think it'd be a bit like removing logs from an out of control flame.

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DD
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posted April 01, 2010 01:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DD     Edit/Delete Message
"Anything in Astrology can be questioned"

Exactly. And that what makes it so difficult, and yet interesting.


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Glaucus
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posted April 01, 2010 01:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
"well buddy look, i dont mean to come off as disrespectful or insulting because i actually value your input and believe you have a lot of knowledge on the subject but i do have to ask, who are you trying to convince? personally, i dont feel that anyone here is a skeptic or trying to prove astrology to anyone else.. everyone is here because they find something in it already as it is so questioning whether it is something that can be proven of just fanciness for the human mind, especially on a site such as this, is proving exactly what?"

first of all , I am not your buddy. I never called you "buddy"

second, I am not trying to convince anybody.
I am just expressing my views that include astronomical facts and that the knowledge,perceptions of 21st Century solar system are different now from those the 20th Century solar system just like the knowledge,perceptions of the solar system from the Pre-Enlightenment period were different from those the 20th Century solar system.


The solar system doesn't end with Pluto. That's a fact. Pluto is a kuiper belt object that's a fact. There are hundreds of kuiper belt objects. That's a fact. That's not something that can be discredited. If anything, it can be argued with every astronomical discovery, Astrology gets discredited.

That's why Astrology is viewed as pseudoscience. It's not recognized by science nor psychiatry. We're about as controversial as scientologists. We're often viewed as fraudulent and delusional.

Astrology and Astronomy are so very separate.

With every discovery that Astronomers make about our solar system and things in space, they move further away from Astrologers. Exceptions are Astrologers that are astronomically oriented and include the astronomical discoveries.

Astrologers have done that before. They included Uranus,Neptune,Pluto,and Chiron in their systems even though Astrology started as a system that was based on objects up to Saturn because Uranus,Neptune,and Pluto weren't discovered yet.

Many mainstream Astrologers criticized Vedic Astrologers for being so rigid for not using Uranus,Neptune,and Pluto.

The same arguments that Mainstream Astrologers use against Astrologers that use recent astronomical discoveries are the same arguments that Vedic Astrologers use against Mainstream Astrologers.


------------------
Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.
http://people.tribe.net/4b0cf8c4-1fc3-4171-92d3-b0915985bf95/blog

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The Duke
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posted April 01, 2010 01:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Duke     Edit/Delete Message
ok listen, if you're going to be rude and complete dick, then i can urge you to take your facts elsewhere. im not going to argue with you. it's almost as if one would be trying to have a conversation with a wall while talking to you. i will leave you to your indecision between astronomy and astrology so that you may discuss it on your own. but whenever i see your name beside any one of these posts (in any thread that i may run into) rest assured i'll not be one replying or reading. i wish you plenty of luck and i hope that you have a good day.

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