posted May 04, 2010 10:21 PM         

I've also recently come across someone with the conjunction in Scorpio and....Holy Crap, hahaha. I like the girl and I see alot of similarities in thought between the two of us, but the way she come across is alot more intense than me on a good day...haha. Maybe this is the Universe's way of telling me to turn it down a notch. :P But even so, I feel like I'm repressing some part of myself when I do. I just can't help the impact I have even when I'm just irritated.

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Mercury Pluto is the aspectual manifestation of Mercury in Scorpio, which is renowned for being either verbose or rather monosyllabic. This implies nothing about the underlying mindset or facility for language or mental processing, but only the willingness or unwillingness to reveal the self. This is reflected perfectly by the aspects between Mercury and Pluto, most especially with the conjunction and to a lesser extent the easy aspects there is a loquacious response to the contact: these people talk, often exhaustively although without necessarily revealing much of substance about themselves. Conversely, those with hard aspects are not likely to give too much away, or at the very least – while they may talk freely – they are never comfortable talking about themselves in a way that is particularly incisive or revealing. In either case it boils down to a profound fear of communication and a sense that somehow words can cause pain and lasting damage. With the easy aspects there is not the same urgent sense of danger, but nevertheless there is a need to control the conversation which is engendered by the same mindset as the individual with the hard aspects. Often the Pluto conjunct Mercury person will talk exhaustively and exhaustingly, and the ‘listener’ will often walk away feeling tired and somewhat overwhelmed by the experience. In any case, the process of communicating, with easy aspects or hard, is uncomfortable for both parties involved in the dialogue.

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whole article:

http://chirotic.wordpress.com/2009/02/27/mercury-pluto-insight-or-inquisition/

posted May 04, 2010 10:45 PM         

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Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted May 05, 2010 01:11 AM         

I do this.

posted May 05, 2010 02:30 AM         

probably could have trust issues,suspiciousness that can end up being paranoia
obsessive,compulsive thoughts

also with it being a transneptunian object that has a highly eccentric orbit, the nervous system could be ultrasensitive to the point of perceiving subtleties. The mind would be nonconformist, thinking outside the box,and seeing alternative views.

the extreme negatives could be possible schizophrenia, especially paranoid schizophrenia and overall nervous breakdown.

positives can be being hyperfocusing or being obsessed with an interest that you gain knowledge about it,highly curious,highly insightful,deep thinking,researching,investigator,counselor,psychoanalyst, occultist,intuitive reader,physicist, salesperson, charismatic speaker,strong-minded.

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Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted May 05, 2010 07:40 AM         

Mercury Pluto, in keeping with other applications of Lord Hades deals with hidden, sinister and subtle aspects of communication and of course the mental processes that underpin them. Indeed, the entire arena of interpersonal communications is fraught for Mercury – Pluto, usually because of an early childhood that is characterised by difficulty, cruelty or power-games in communication matters. We shall explore these causal themes in the ensuing discussion, but first I would like to examine some of the specific effects.

Mercury Pluto is the aspectual manifestation of Mercury in Scorpio, which is renowned for being either verbose or rather monosyllabic. This implies nothing about the underlying mindset or facility for language or mental processing, but only the willingness or unwillingness to reveal the self. This is reflected perfectly by the aspects between Mercury and Pluto, most especially with the conjunction and to a lesser extent the easy aspects there is a loquacious response to the contact: these people talk, often exhaustively although without necessarily revealing much of substance about themselves. Conversely, those with hard aspects are not likely to give too much away, or at the very least – while they may talk freely – they are never comfortable talking about themselves in a way that is particularly incisive or revealing. In either case it boils down to a profound fear of communication and a sense that somehow words can cause pain and lasting damage. With the easy aspects there is not the same urgent sense of danger, but nevertheless there is a need to control the conversation which is engendered by the same mindset as the individual with the hard aspects. Often the Pluto conjunct Mercury person will talk exhaustively and exhaustingly, and the ‘listener’ will often walk away feeling tired and somewhat overwhelmed by the experience. In any case, the process of communicating, with easy aspects or hard, is uncomfortable for both parties involved in the dialogue.

It should be remembered that any aspect between Mercury and Pluto will evince one or other of these effects. For my own part I am extremely familiar with Mercury – Pluto as I have Mercury in Scorpio, peregrine and semi-square, contraparallel and in mutual reception with Pluto, I can speak from experience as to its effects.

With the hard aspects especially, the sense of difficulty with communication creates an observer rather than a participator. Here is somebody who is aware of every subtle nuance of communication and is typically deeply distrustful of words. Usually it will be found that Mercury – Pluto grew up in an environment where truth was taboo, and one or both parents will have been the murky wellspring from which this skewed sense of things was first experienced. It is also possible that an older brother or sister was the cause of the problem or some difficult secret in connection with that sibling or one that haunted and tainted the family environment in some way might be found to be in evidence. On a fairly simplistic level, the Mercury Pluto child will have learned early on that words were not to be trusted at face value. The resentful and controlling mother who would tell her child: “of course I love you darling, more than anything in the world” while evincing no genuine or believable warmth is one good example of this effect. There is then a dichotomy here, between words and more subtle forms of non-verbal communication that have poisoned the child’s perceptions. Body language, ever a reliable indicator of true feelings, is therefore valued much more highly than any simple verbal statement, but this again is fraught with difficulty. The Mercury – Pluto person is formed in such away that they are innately suspicious of any communication: this is very often sensed by others, who feel that they are “on the spot” somehow, and their body language will betray their discomfort which will in turn set off the ultra-sensitive radar of Mercury – Pluto. This can create a cycle of suspicion, distrust and interrogation that is especially exhausting within close relationships later in life.

Therefore, the Mercury – Pluto type is often handicapped in life by being too perceptive and it is through this mechanism of not being able to take things at face value and exhausting oneself and others by continually investigating the most subtle of interactions that the damage is done.
The child learned to do things this way because of the unreliability of close family communications. Language may have been used to damaging effect by a parent or sibling, secrets were kept and wielded almost politically within the early home environment and this actually characterises very neatly the quality of this combination for the afflicted. Words cannot ever mean what they say, there is usually a hidden agenda, an ulterior motive, a secret being kept: indeed this is exactly the case in the childhood home, but the problem is that the child grows up and takes this same understanding out into the world and applies it indiscriminately to every relationship in the whole of life from then on.

But there is a more profound realisation here too. It is not actually so much what is said that concerns Mercury – Pluto, but indeed what is  not said. This creates an anxiety about communication that is really very disturbing: this is why the native talks so much (in the conjunction or easy aspect), not because they have anything much to say, but because they are terrified of the silence and what it might mean. The child will no doubt have been controlled with lack of communication as much as the use of ugly, brutal or cruel language. A parent or sibling may have ostracised or ignored the child as a means of creating an emotional anxiety, or made vague, open-ended threats which would have created a sense of foreboding and impending anguish all with the express purpose of eliciting control.

There is too a legacy of damaging secrets in the early home which would have reinforced this sense of anguish, very often there are half-brothers or sisters who are kept secret or in some other way separate from the rest of the family. There may also have been other secrets relating to siblings which, when revealed created anxiety in the native: I have seen cases where a more favoured sibling is secretly given money or some other treat or benefit by a parent unbeknown to the Mercury Pluto child and when this is learned the assurances by the parent that they love their children equally become hollow and suspect.

posted May 05, 2010 10:24 AM         

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I once read (I think it was on Bob Marks' site) that hard aspects of Mercury/Pluto tend to be good at wounding others. I would agree with this.

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posted May 05, 2010 10:28 AM         

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alot of times I have trouble getting the right words out. Im a much better listener then I am a speaker. but on rare occasion my speach is flawless

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If I'm not mistaken, you also have the opposition from Neptune (to mercury), right? Because I do as well, and I have the same exact problem. I speak fast enough, but I'm somehow jumbling words, or some other miscommunication happens. I blame that opposition. The odd thing is that I'm alot better in my Native tongue, which is ten times more complicated than English.

And...

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Mercury in Scorpio,Mercury-Pluto/Nodes,Mercury in 8th is like how the Messenger of the Gods, Hermes guided souls to the Underworld

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posted May 05, 2010 11:56 AM         

That was exactly my problem in early childhood. The nuns asked my mother what language that I spoke. I was talking,and they didn't understand a word that I was saying. I was taken to various specialists. After my speech and hearing was tested, my mother was told that I wasn't hearing things right. They told her that I was turning stuff around when I heard it - auditory reversals. It was the auditory reversals that led to speech reversals. I was jumbling up stuff in my mind when people were talking,and so I jumbled up stuff when I spoke. I had auditory therapy so I can listen adequately. I had speech therapy and phonics training after that. I didn't speak clearly nor in full sentences until I was almost 8 years old. I didn't talk until I was 2 years old. My speech problems were both language-related (Dyslexia) and coordination-related (Dyspraxia). The coordination problems of the Dyspraxia led me to speak at an irregular pitch,rate as well as too speak too softly mumble. I tend to speak rapidly,ramble,and go on a tangent. That's known as "cluttering" which is common in people with neurological/learning differences like Dyslexia,Dyspraxia,ADHD,and Autistic Spectrum as well as other related conditions. Cluttering can exist independent of neurological/learning differences. The thing is that it is also similar to manic speech and schizophrenic speech. Therefore,they need to be differentiated from each other to prevent misdiagnosis. I was misdiagnosed as having bipolar disorder with schizoaffective disorder because of my speech irregularities. Therefore,I know personally.

any ways...I had something similar,but with my own native language which is the only language that I know.

I don't think that it's unusual for a person to jumble up words in a language that is no native to the individual.

I don't have any hard Mercury-Pluto aspects.

I don't have any hard Mercury aspects in longitude.

in the declinations, it's a different story

Mercury contraparallel Saturn - '38 similar to Mercury oppose Saturn
Mercury parallel Neptune - '33 similar to Mercury conjunct Neptune

I also have Mercury parallel Venus - '13 which enhances my Mercury conjunct Venus with 3'26 orb - I do speak in a way that's very sweet...even too sweet.

I have a declination configuration of Saturn contraparallel Mercury-Venus-Neptune parallel

when you look at Pluto's fellow transneptunians:
Mercury square dwarf planet,Makemake - 2'01

My Mercury is conjunct Sun/Neptune midpoint with 14 minutes of arc.
My Mercury is conjunct Neptune/Ixion midpoint with 12 minutes of arc.
(That's because I have Sun conjunct Ixion with 5 minutes of arc...any midpoint picture that involves my Sun, involves my Ixion. Ixion is a transneptunian dwarf planet candidate/plutino. Therefore,it's very similar to both astronomically and astrologically. Mercury conjunct Neptune/Ixion midpoint would be very much like Mercury conjunct Neptune/Pluto midpoint.

I have Mercury in Scorpio sextile South Geocentric Pluto Node - '03.

I can strongly identify with the Mercury-Pluto article including both hard and soft stuff.

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Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted May 05, 2010 12:26 PM         

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Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted May 05, 2010 12:58 PM         

former President Bush also had the following

Mercury in 9'49 Leo
conjunct Geocentric North Neptune Node in 10'19 Leo

That's like having Mercury conjunct Neptune, but it's a collective influence.

"That's pretty interesting, Raymond. Though honestly, I don't have a disability and I've been speaking English for more than 15 years. Its probably for the same reason I make so many typos...my mind moves fast enough, but my mouth (and hands) moves even faster. Strange trick of Neptune, that is. But let me not hijack my own thread by talking about Neptune hard aspects now...LMAO."

Mine is not connected to a disability either. It's connected to a difference that involves ultrasensitivity and visual,picture thinking and overall being very rightbrained that includes right hemisphere also taking part in tasks that left hemisphere supposed to be doing like processing words.

I am primarily a picture,visual thinker. I had to be taught to think in words. I cannot think in words rapidly, but I can think in pictures extremely rapidly. Technically, visual,picture thinking is actually much faster than verbal,word thinking. People with strong visual spatial skills that lack comparable verbal facility can have problems expressing ideas in a society that is highly verbal. That's what my neuropsychologist wrote in my neuropsychological assessment report.

My rapid speech is connected to poor sense of linear time (not knowing if I am going too fast or too slow) and the motor output in result of that and not racing thoughts which would get a person viewed as being manic even though he/she may not be. Racing thoughts is known symptom of mania in bipolar disorder.

As for ultrasensitivity, I get overloaded with information too easily. Too much information comes to my physical senses for my brain to process. That's known as sensory integration issues. People with autism have it the most extreme.

"Overall I think the article is meant to reach out to people with mercuries influenced by pluto in anyway (sign, aspect, or house placement). It even says so at the beginning. I think the way you go in depth with various subjects is heavily characteristic of a plutonian mercury. "

Yep. I do have that indeed. Mercury influenced by Pluto in 2 ways by being in Scorpio, sextile Geocentric South Pluto Node. I also have exact Mercury-Pluto golden section aspect of 47'30. So actually 3 ways.

Dr. Theodor Landscheidt pioneered the use of both Geocentric Planetary Nodes and golden section aspects in Astrology.

I also think my going in depth in various subjects and looking at things from various angles are connected to my neurodivergence too.

I also believe that Pluto's fellow transneptunians have similar effect,and that includes especially the plutinos which have 3:2 orbital resonance with Neptune like Pluto does. Therefore,they orbit like Pluto.
I have Mercury square Makemake with 2'01 orb and Mercury biquintile Eris with 6 minutes of arc. Both Eris and Makemake are dwarf planets,and so Pluto's astronomical equals.

I believe that the intensity,depth is not just Pluto but the other transneptunians.

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Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted May 05, 2010 01:09 PM         

I think that's a cool aspect. I believe that it does apply.

According to Robert Hand,

The Five Series - (quintile,biquintile,decile)

Quality similar to that associated with Pluto, with overtones of Venus and Mars; some kind of concrete creation or destruction is effected. Intellectual functions (not excluding emotion) and all especially human matters. Transformational change. The ability to express creative inspiration (due to other factors) in concrete creations.

so it's like you have an extreme Mercury-Pluto influence combined with Venus and Mars. Very cool.

I really see it apparent in how you communicate and present information in the forum including especially Global Unity.

I'd also think that it's great for being a skeptic connected to not taking things at face value but want to see for yourself, delving deeply into things. I think that it's great for improvising too. I think that it useful aspect for creative problem-solving. Of course, all that stuff can be useful for Astrology.

We both have Mercury in 5th harmonic aspect to a transneptunian dwarf planet. very cool.

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Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.

posted May 05, 2010 02:10 PM         

One has to consider the astronomical,orbital features of Pluto when determining its astrological influence.

Uranus gets pinned as the planet of the unusual, but technically Pluto is far more unusual than Uranus. That's what got it demoted.

Why isn't Scorpio actually more nonconformist than Aquarius because Scorpio is ruled by Pluto and Aquarius is ruled by Uranus?

Astrologers don't view Scorpio that way.
That's because they don't really recognize that Pluto is more of nonconformist than Uranus.

Uranus
inclination to the ecliptic is 0.772 556°
eccentricity is 0.044 405 586
axial tilt is Axial tilt is 97.77°

Pluto
inclination to the ecliptic is 17.141 75°
eccentricity is 0.248 807 66
axial tilt is 119.591 ± 0.014° (to orbit)

Technically, Pluto has far more of a nonconformist orbit than Uranus. Uranus stays on the ecliptic the whole time it orbits. Pluto tends to orbit well away from the ecliptic - up to 17 degrees away and enters constellations that are not part of the zodiac. It has a highly elliptical orbit,and Uranus doesn't. Therefore, it's orbit is more eccentric than Uranus.

Pluto is a nonconformist with it being so much smaller than the planets and being icy unlike the planets. But when you look at Pluto's fellow transneptunian objects, then you see that Pluto is really not that nonconformist. There are over a thousand objects like Pluto.
but they are all unusual compared to the planets including Uranus. Therefore, they are also nonconformist objects.

I don't think Scorpio and Pluto are actually the same, but it seems that mainstream western astrologers gave Plutonian traits to Scorpio based on the mythology of Pluto/Hades, but they didn't assign Plutonian traits to Scorpio based on the astronomy of the object itself.

I think the latter is just as important as the former. The problem is that not many astrologers are astronomically oriented. Therefore, they don't consider that astronomical features also help with understanding the astrological influence of the object even though they are using some astronomy when it comes to travel in signs and the use of aspects. Everything that astrologers do to calculate charts and monitor the objects' movements are based on astronomy. They just don't consider the astrononomical,orbital features of the objects themselves.

Because Pluto is a dwarf planet, I prefer smaller orbs. Besides, a 6 degree Pluto conjunction in the regular chart could actually be a 3 degree or even a 1 degree Pluto conjunction in Right Ascension chart.

Because of its high inclination, Pluto can have significant difference between its ecliptic longitude position and its Right Ascension position.

also....There are so many transneptunian neighbors that Pluto has, there are bound to be some transneptunians aspecting the chart which could easily explain identifying with wide Pluto aspects. Of course, the big transneptunian objects including especially the dwarf planets would be just as significant as Pluto.

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Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

A Different Mind Is Not A Deficient Mind.

posted May 05, 2010 02:34 PM         

That's a damn shame that that happened to you. Parents are not suppose be the source of any of our suspicions but that's not the case here.

I have the same paranoia about people going through my personal things/belongings/whatever and that's probably why I also have an online journal now as well. I felt in earlier life that whatever 'useless' interests and ideas I had were used against me in the most cruel or taunting ways, especially when I got a bad mark on a report card or did not perform to their standards, and so on. So now I just keep alot of these things jealously guarded to myself.

posted May 05, 2010 03:00 PM         

I'm an open and skilled communicator who can dominate a conversation (Mars in the 3rd house) or have everyone in stitches with comic timing. My words have always been my greatest power and tool, whether its written or spoken (as i'm sure many of you have seen on here).
When I'm angry, I can tear a person to shreds cos I'll get right to the core and like Pluto, show them the things that they've been denying or ignoring. I've destroyed many people with my words.
My mouth is my best friend and greatest enemy, it gets me out of trouble as quickly as it gets out of it.

The was a big theme of siblings here, my Mars is in the 3rd house/Gemini and I'm the eldest so while I had no siblings to mentally terrorise me, i did have an uncle who's 10yrs older than me who used to psychologically torture me.
It made me withdraw in my youngest years and still now, i feel that terror and shame around him, even though I'm a full grown adult.

My parents played favouritism games, as most parents do, with my 2 younger siblings. I could never trust that they did love me like they say they did cos their actions, lack of understanding and emotional coldness would say otherwise.
With Mars being in the house of siblings, I've always suspected that I've had a few half brother or sisters out there, despite there being no indication of such a thing. It's always just been something I've suspected, my gut instinct tells me so and it hasn't been wrong yet.

Having my Sun along with my Mars in my 3rd house, and having Pluto in my 7th of partnerships/relationships, my whole life has been about siblings and being a big sister to someone.

posted May 05, 2010 03:05 PM         

I agree

but that can be said about all the other transneptunian objects.....especially Pluto's fellow plutinos. I'd say Eris especially. Eris' discovery led to Pluto's demotion,Ceres' promotion, and redefining planetary boundaries,and new classifications that include dwarf planet and Plutoid which both Pluto and Eris belong to.

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Raymond

Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement