posted August 20, 2010 02:25 AM            

You often mention parallels and contra-parallels. Would you say these are as strong as the (major) Ptolemaic aspects in a chart, based on your experience?

I noticed in my chart I have a very close Mars/Uranus parallel - but the planets are far from being conjunct. Mars is at 2' Capricorn and Uranus is at 22' Sagittarius.

How would you interpret this?

Hi Knowflakes -

If you are interested - please post your parallels and contra-parallels and tell me if you can relate to these aspects in your personality.
Usually a parallel is similar in vibe to a conjunction (from what I've read).
A contra-parallel is similar in vibe to an opposition.

You can find these aspects on astro.com - in the extended chart selection - get a pdf of your natal chart .. You will see a table: The last column is for declinations. When you have two planets with the same declination - say 22 N (North) - they are parallel.
When they are at the same degree but one is North and one is South - they are contra-parallel.

posted August 20, 2010 02:56 AM            

You often mention parallels and contra-parallels. Would you say these are as strong as the (major) Ptolemaic aspects in a chart, based on your experience?"

I definitely look at parallels and contraparallels regularly. They are just equatorial latitude aspects. I look at ptolemaic aspects and minor aspects in Right Ascension which is equatorial longitude.
Astronomers located object by looking at only Right Ascension and Declination.

I'd think both coordinates would be valid to use in Astrology.

"I noticed in my chart I have a very close Mars/Uranus parallel - but the planets are far from being conjunct. Mars is at 2' Capricorn and Uranus is at 22' Sagittarius."

parallels are treated like conjunctions
contraparallels are treated like oppositions

they don't have to be in conjunction, opposition to have an effect

a parallel would intensify a conjunction
a contraparallel would intensity an opposition

for example:
I have Mercury conjunct/parallel Venus and Saturn oppose/contraparallel Neptune

often if you look at declination longitude equivalent, the parallels appear as conjunctions and contraparallels as oppositions

This is true for me

for example:
I have Saturn contraparallel Mercury-Venus-Neptune parallel

in the declination longitude equivalent chart,
I have Saturn oppose Mercury-Venus-Neptune conjunction

Declination midpoints are used in Cosmobiology too.

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted August 20, 2010 03:03 AM            

Here is a Declinations Converter http://www.astrologyweekly.com/declination/

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted August 20, 2010 03:09 AM            

Moon parallel pluto 14N
Venus Contra Parallel Neptune 19N/S
Saturn Parallel Lilith 21N
Saturn Contra/P NN 21 N/S
Juno C/P Vertex 0 N/S
==========================
If you included house cusp

Sun P 2nd H2 15N
Sun CP H8 15N/S
Moon/Pluto P H6 14N
Moon CP H12 14 N/S
Moon CP H8
Saturn at 21 N
H3 21N
H5 21N
H9 21S
h11 21S

=======================================
Moon/Pluto---
Yes this does describe me..Moon conjunct Pluto
The conjunction of the Moon and Pluto produces an intense romantic nature. You seek relationships with those who feel as deeply and as tenaciously as you do. You are a very possessive and demanding person, rarely impulsive or casual. It's hard to satisfy your emotional needs for the perfect relationship because you are so idealistic and demanding. These traits often extend to friendships, as well. Because of this your friends are few but extremely close. You are a hard person to live with because you require so much of those to whom you are near. You can be tyrannical and alienating, at times.
======================
Venus opposition Neptune
The opposition between Venus and Neptune shows emotions and affections are strongly influenced by unconscious forces. This aspect blurs aesthetic, social, romantic and sexual perceptions. In matters of marriage, social life, and artistic creativity, your unconscious desires generate wishful thinking and a distorted perception of reality. Social relationships are apt to be somewhat undermined. There is a tendency toward self-indulgence in this aspect, and you can be especially susceptible to drugs and alcohol should you wander astray. There can be much confusion in sexual matters. Emotionalism and self-delusion may cloud judgment.

posted August 20, 2010 03:12 AM            

Declinations are not based on the ecliptic.
They are equatorial coordinates

Therefore, I wouldn't including house cusps
only the angles

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted August 20, 2010 03:24 AM            

This is my Declination Longitude Equivalent Chart: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3670833&l=2b8f4883a0&id=596565900

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted August 20, 2010 03:26 AM            

Yep

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted August 20, 2010 03:30 AM            

Sun 17,31 N DW Sun conj AC in natal
AC 17,32 N
Jupiter 17,32 N
Orcus 17,23 N

Venus 18,34 N
Elisabeth 18,30 N

Moon 19,18 N
Pluto 19,19 N
Pallas 19,35 N

Mars 23,49 N DW N.N conj also in Natal
N.N 23,26 N

Lucifer 24,49 N
Hygiea 24,40 N

Glaucus.
Should you count all of this as a big stellium togheter 17,18,19 respective 23,24? or should you group them like I did? For me I see they work more as the separete group on a more subtle conj.

My AC have here in parallels moved and are in front of the sun. In my Natal my Sun 10,47 and AC 10,42. I sometimes feel my sun must be in the house 12.

posted August 20, 2010 03:35 AM            

like in my case:

Mercury 18'24 South
Venus 18'10 South
Neptune 18'57 South

they are all in parallel within 1 degree

they contraparallel

Saturn 19'02 North

In declination longitude equivalent chart

Mercury in 22'30 Scorpio
Venus in 21'36 Scorpio
Neptune in 24'43 Scorpio

oppose Saturn in 25'05 Taurus R

Mercury conjunct Neptune
With Mercury conjunction Neptune in your chart, you are highly intuitive and creative. You have a real appreciation for artistic and literary endeavors, especially fiction and fantasy, and many of you are talented in the arts. It can be hard to focus on straight facts, or to be objective, because your perceptions are often distorted (or enhanced) by your wishes and dreams. Your mind often wanders, and you are often found daydreaming. You are excellent at visualization and creative expression. You may not have a lot of confidence in your ability to communicate effectively, simply because there can be a lot of hesitation or confusion in your self-expression, but generally others find you intriguing and creative. In fact, you might be a fascinating story teller. Stretching the truth can be a problem with this conjunction, and it is not always done consciously. Your imagination is strong, and it often colors your perceptions. You resist being pinned down to a particular opinion or stance, largely due to the fact that you see so many ways of looking at something. Routine or dull learning programs are unlikely to stimulate you. You long to connect to something higher and larger, and so you tend to glamorize or dramatize.

Venus conjunct Neptune
Those with Venus in conjunction to Neptune in their birth chart are generally sensitive, creative, and attractive people. An impractical nature when it comes to love, money, and personal possessions is notable, even if Venus-Neptune people approach the rest of their lives in a more sensible manner. They are giving, and usually "give" more than they receive in close personal relationships, ready to make sacrifices for the one they love, generally loyal, and exceedingly kind-hearted. Sentimental and compassionate, natives with Venus conjunct Neptune are easily touched by others' kindness, music, poetry, dance, and most any art that evokes emotion. Some might say they are gullible in love, as they are inclined to forgive easily and trust that others are as good-hearted as they are. They may attract people who take advantage of their giving nature, or who elude commitment, or who are troubled or needy. As ready as they are to forgive, they are also easily hurt, and even shocked, in matters of the heart. They dislike crude, rude, and crass behavior and situations. Still, they are drawn to love relationships like moth to flame. Their imaginations and fantasy worlds are rich, and Venus-Neptune people believe that there is something out there for them, even after disappointments. There's an ethereal or mysterious quality to them that is subtly seductive and very attractive. As loving as they are, there is an ethereal and universal quality to their love that keeps them oddly out of reach, yearning for something magical and ideal, that can make their lovers feel strangely excluded--their love almost borders on impersonal. These very creative people are often artists.

Mercury oppose Saturn
Saturn connected to a personal planet in hard aspect has a censoring effect on the planet involved. With Mercury in hard aspect to Saturn, whatever the person says and writes is self-censored to some degree. It's hard for these people to pour out their emotions, no matter how emotional or needy they feel on the inside. This is because they are always aware of what others might think of them with what they say. They are not necessarily deliberate talkers or thinkers. In other words, they don't always pick and choose their words carefully or speak slowly. However, they are careful with what they reveal to others. They make plenty of disclaimers, and often come across as negative or sarcastic without intending to. These are people who review conversations they've had with others, and who often kick themselves for saying something they didn't intend to, or for not saying something witty. Saturn tends to have a hobbling effect, and when it's attached to the planet of communication in hard aspect, there can be some feelings of insecurity about how we speak and communicate in general. These people tend to worry about what they've said and how they could have said it better. Some older astrology texts suggest that there can be learning disorders or "slowness" with this aspect, but this is rarely the case. In fact, many people with this aspect are very strong academically. The flow of their communication is blocked in some manner, however, and this is due to an automatic "self-censoring" tendency. Self-consciousness and hypersensitivity is experienced with regards to their intelligence and ability to get ideas across to others, especially in youth. These people need plenty of positive feedback from others in order to feel more confident and less "blocked".

If you have this aspect in your chart, recognize that you are most likely harder on yourself about how you communicate than others are. Ask people close to you for an objective point of view. Chances are, they find you to be astute, intelligent, and an effective speaker or writer. We often tell our kids "don't worry about what others think", but telling this to a person with a hard Saturn aspects is not enough, nor is it realistic. They will worry. Instead, I have found that the best way to handle difficult Saturn aspects is to get objective feedback from others! Mercury-Saturn people don't accept compliments whole-heartedly, yet they crave them and need them. Others around them tend to stop complimenting them, feeling that they either don't need compliments or don't want to hear them. Nothing can be further than the truth!

Venus oppose Saturn
Giving and receiving love are not flowing and natural for people born with Venus in hard aspect to Saturn. Blockages are experienced, and love relationships may be a source of frustration as a result, until the natives learn to love themselves, and to feel worthy of love from others. Duty is often associated with love, and some might find themselves stuck in a loveless marriage, for example. Especially in youth, these people might feel awkward in some social situations, unsure of how to express affections, and fearful of rejection. Problematic Saturn positions often get better with age, experience, and practice, however! In its more negative expression, some people with this position learn to scheme in order to get what they want from a partner, or they might treat partnerships as if they were businesses.

These aspects can make natives especially sensitive to "cues" that suggest they are not loved or rejected in some way. People with Venus-Saturn in hard aspect can often "expect" rejection in issues of love and care, whether they are conscious of this tendency or not. This can often lead to negative situations in love -- and bad timing or the feeling of having "bad luck" in relationships.

People with Venus in hard aspect to Saturn might either downplay their physical appearance or pay excessive attention to it. Either way, self-consciousness with adornments is common. Often, people with this position sell themselves short. They are not risk takers when it comes to relationships, often choosing a path that they feel is safe, even if it is an uncomfortable one. Fear of giving can also express itself through tight-fistedness with money.

The key to handling these aspects is to learn to loosen up and relax. Know that you may be oversensitive to rejection -- and try to gain some perspective when you feel your love is not being returned to your satisfaction. Are you truly letting love in, or is there a part of you that is scared? Could your expectations and "heaviness" in the area of relationships (you might take love more seriously than most) be getting in the way of accepting love and affection? Venus-Saturn people may have deep-seated feelings of being unworthy of love, even if they are able to rationalize and decide otherwise!

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted August 20, 2010 04:25 AM            

depends on the orb

also

if they show as conjunctions and oppositions in the declination longitude equivalent chart, then they should be strong

compared to parallels and contraparallels that don't have equivalent conjunctions and oppositions in the declination longitude equivalent chart

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted August 20, 2010 04:39 AM            

BUT we have to keep in mind that two planets can form a parallel / contraparallel more often than a conjunction, due to the fact, that you only have about 24 degrees to the north and the south (which makes about 48 degrees in total with the exception of out of bound planets of course), while the whole zodiac has 360°. So the likelihood to find two planets in parallel may be greater than finding a conjunction, which may be the reason that we have to use a really tight orb for these.

Very interesting I find planets which are in longitudinal and declanational aspect to each other.
Actually only a conjunction that is a parallel at the same time will LOOK like a conjunction. I think they may be considerably stronger than a conjunction alone.

Having said that, I think I do relate to my lunar parallels / contraparallels. My Moon is peregrine, but from a declinational perspective it is:

Moon: 11°05 S

parallel
Uranus: 11°27 S

contraparallel:
Pluto: 11°40 N

These two aspects to Uranus and Pluto definitely describe the conflicting needs of my Moon.

BUT then again
My Moon is in Aquarius and her dispositor is in Scorpio.

lol

posted August 20, 2010 04:51 AM            

I wonder if Aquarius has traits of both Saturn and Uranus with those being its co-rulers.

I try to figure out the difference between my Moon in Pisces and my Moon square Neptune
may Pisces has traits of both Jupiter and Neptune. Maybe Moon-Neptune is more otherworldly than Moon in Pisces is. Maybe Moon in Pisces is more emotional with it being a watersign placement. Maybe its more optimistic,expansive with it being traditionally ruled by Jupiter.
I clearly see differences between Scorpio and Pluto

compared to Scorpio, Pluto is more otherworldly and nonconformist
considering Pluto's astronomical properties like it orbiting beyond Neptune and its highly eccentric,elliptical orbit

Scorpio may be more aggressive,fiery with it being traditionally ruled by Mars

The modern intepretations for Aquarius,Scorpio,and Pisces placements seem more New Agey compared to traditional interpretations for those placements. I feel that it has a lot to do with Uranus,Neptune,Pluto given modern rulerships over those signs.

I think Vetiver's thread hinted at that too.

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted August 20, 2010 05:32 AM            

For me saturn and uranus are so different even if I know the old CO ruler.

"I try to figure out the difference between my Moon in Pisces and my Moon square Neptune" I'm sure you already know how it works in you
Your moon pisces in square to your nept sometimes make you confused . You already know that. I know you know that. It's basic. Moon in pisces suggest the same but more on deep philosophic thought.

posted August 20, 2010 06:39 AM            

depends on how its used

yes....confusion make sense
I was confused in regards to my ethnicity,race because I am of mixed racial,ethnic background that never knew my father and his side of the family nor never knew my maternal grandmother nor her side of the family.

neurodivergence involved confusion,disorientation,distortion

Ronald D. Davis talks about how disorientation/confusion can lead to distorted perceptual experiences that neurodivergents have. He believes that the highly visual,picture thinking of neurodivergents makes them use their disorientation to automatically distort their peceptions but also can be used to see things from other perspectives. He believes those things are strongly connected to each other. They are highly imaginative. They could actually have an overactive imagination that leads to the perceptual distortions.
http://astynaz.myphotoalbum.com/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album03&id=Gift_Of_Dyslexia_010_gif
http://astynaz.myphotoalbum.com/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album03&id=Gift_Of_Dyslexia_014_gif
http://astynaz.myphotoalbum.com/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album03&id=Gift_Of_Dyslexia_015_gif
http://astynaz.myphotoalbum.com/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album03&id=Gift_Of_Dyslexia_016_gif
http://astynaz.myphotoalbum.com/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album03&id=Gift_Of_Dyslexia_017_gif

for instance
I used to jumble up words when people said, I used to turn them around after I heard them, auditory reversals

That and coordination issues led to unintelligible speech including speech reversals which led to the nuns asking my mom "What language does he speak?" even though I was speaking in my native language,English. I'd tend to mumble too. I am very softspokened.

the confusion,distortion can arguably stem from the sensory overload....as in too much word information to my ears for my brain to process. My mother was told that people needed to slow down when talking to me because I get overloaded too easily. This also happens when I read too. Too much information to my eyes for my brain to process. That can be all about ultrasensitivity to one's environment and not just my being visual,picture thinker.

It's most common and pronounced in autistics

I still can get easily confused when I am listening and reading or anything that has to do with sequences,time,direction as well as overall linear stuff.

My Mercury parallel Neptune could indicate that too
so can the Saturn oppose/contraparallel Neptune

Moon is also the mother. My mother is very similar to me. My mother is a recovering drug addict,alcoholic,and has has My biological father was similar to me too. He was a drug addict. He was more of an extreme neurodivergent than my mother. I never had drug and alcohol issues like my parents.

all objects that orbit beyond Saturn would seem to do with nonlinear,metaphysical orientation.

confusion,disoriention,distortion are also symptoms of psychosis,schizophrenia

so its very important to distinguish the confusion,disorientation,distortion

Moon square Neptune aspects do tend to be intepreted as schizophrenia,psychotic aspects in Astrology

as an astrologer, I try to raise awareness that the same aspects that astrologers focus as mental illness aspects can also be indicators for neurodivergence because the symptoms/traits overlap.

In Medical Astrology, strong Neptune/hard Neptune aspects can indicate misdiagnoses too and oversensitivity to drugs/medications
That's all true for me.

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted August 20, 2010 06:55 AM            

I really don't think Moon in Pisces suggest the same

The way I see it

Pisces

Its element is water,and so it's emotional,feeling-oriented,sensitive,nurturing

its modality is mutable, and so it's changeable,flexible,adaptive

its gender is feminine, and so it's reactive,introverted

it's traditionally ruled by Jupiter,and so it's expansive and philosophical as well as can be optimistic,excessive,judgmental

I think that when we interpret signs

we have to consider their element,modality,and gender

I think we can get lost when we focus on the zodiac signs by their rulerships and miss their essences.

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted August 20, 2010 07:03 AM            

Definition of the Rasis Tied to the Planets

The definitions of the Rasis are also very ancient. Yet advocates of the trans-Saturnian planets say that the modern planets Neptune, Uranus, and Pluto are prime factors for giving Pisces, Aquarius, and Scorpio their meaning. They will say that Pisces has its unique nature because it is ruled by both Jupiter and Neptune, meaning that Pisces has both Jupiterian and Neptunian qualities. However, the meanings of all the signs are based on a combination of factors associated with each sign: the four elements (fire, earth, air, water), three modalities (chara, sthira, ubaya—movable, fixed, common), two genders (male or female), and planetary rulers (excluding Neptune, etc.). Using these four classes in various combinations yields the meanings of the signs. Thus Scorpio has its nature because it is: female gender, water element, fixed modality, and ruled by Mars. This is necessary and sufficient to define the meaning of Scorpio. There is no need to introduce Pluto into the equation. By using such first principles, the meanings of each and every Rasi can be delineated. In this way for thousands of years astrologers have understood the meanings of all the Rasis including Scorpio, Aquarius, and Pisces. It was not that astrologers had confusion about the meaning of these three signs which were only vanquished with the introduction of the trans-Saturnian planets. Rather, they perfectly understood the meanings of all the signs. It is truly circular reasoning by the advocates of trans-Saturnian planets to say that these planets are at the basis of the meaning of these three signs (Scorpio, etc.) when in fact, the meanings existed thousands of years before the trans-Saturnian planets were discovered. In other words, the trans-Saturnian planets have nothing to do with the meanings of any signs and are of no divinatory value.
http://www.shyamasundaradasa.com/jyotish/resources/article s/fallacy_trans_saturnians/fallacy_trans-saturnians_3.html

rasi means sign

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted August 20, 2010 07:29 AM            

Yet, there ARE subtle, or not so subtle, differences, too, of course. Nevertheless I think there is a RESONANCE between Sun in Aries, Sun in 1st house and Sun conjunct Mars for example.

Anyway, I agree with Glaucus that the signs are defined through elements and modality.
Let`s not forget Aquarius is a fixed sign, yet Uranus does not really seem that fixed.
Maybe that is the reason that Aquarians can be totally devoted and faithful (not to mention, mentally stubborn), while if you have, let`s say, Venus-square-Uranus this often results in a lack of stability (often, not always - there are other aspects to consider, too).

So I think Moon-Uranus may be more changeable than Moon in Aquarius.
I consider the rulerships, but the DOUBLE rulerships. Pluto and Mars for Scorpio (some suggest the same for Aries, btw, just with different emphasis), Neptune and Jupiter for Pisces, Saturn and Uranus for Aquarius.

Maybe, though, we should stick to the traditional rulers up to Saturn.
There are many outer planets, which cannot mainly rule the planets.
Also they are called TRANSpersonal planets for a reason, they go beyond the personal sphere, they facilitate evolutionary growth that goes beyond ordinary life. You probably can live your day to day life well without them.
They are the ones that bring you into a transpersonal, spiritual, evolutionary sphere (which is why I personally resonate so much with them).

Anyway, maybe we should really stick to the traditional rulers. It would make sense in my chart at least.
Jupiter as ruler of Pisces 3rd house in 3rd house. Saturn as ruler of Aquarius 3rd house cusp in 8th house (I like to think that my thoughts do delve into the depths of things).
Mars as ruler of Scorpio 12th house in 12th house conjunct Neptune and ASC - NOW if that does not make sense!!!

Also if we have double rulerships we have two houses naturally connected through each other through same rulers. In my chart it would be:

1st and 3rd house through Jupiter
2nd and 3rd house through Saturn
4th and 12th and 11th house through Mars
5th, 6th and 10th house through Venus
7th and 9th house through Mercury

only Sun and Moon would rule on its own which makes sense given their importance.

9th house through Sun
8th house through Moon

posted August 20, 2010 08:14 AM            

I agree with you.

It seems like I always agree with you. heh

What's your view about the declination longitude equivalent chart? I don't really look at it. I think that it's unnecessary except for checking the strength of a parallel, contraparallel to see if it's a conjunction,opposition in the declination longitude equivalent chart. Of course, if there isn't one, it doesn't rule out the parallel,contraparallel being relevant.

I check Right Ascension Chart. It's just a zodiac equivalent to the degrees

for example:
My Moon is at 334'24 in Right Ascension
It's in 4'24 Pisces in Right Ascension Zodiac Equivalent

Because it is in Right Ascension aka equatorial longitude, the sign and house where the Moon is in is irrelevant because sign and house are based on ecliptic longitude.

------------------
Raymond Andrews,
President,Executive Director of Developmental Neurodiversity Association
Supporting the Neurodiversity Movement

posted August 20, 2010 08:29 AM            

" don't really look at it."
I don`t either. I thought the article I once read on it was interesting, but I didn`t incorporate it into my "checklist".
I usually take notice of the parallels and contraparallels though, at least in the back of my mind.

"I check Right Ascension Chart. It's just a zodiac equivalent to the degrees"
Yeah, definitely makes sense to check. I am usually to lazy to do so though.

posted August 20, 2010 08:29 AM            

I think that people who react on abnormal way describe something who is wrong. That's sometimes more normal and more healthy than someone who not react at all.