posted February 16, 2012 12:34 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Moonfish:
Unless you are the signs, or have them dominate your chart then you don't have the right stereotype everyone who happens to be a water sign :/

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Honestly, even if you are a water sign (or have dominant placements, which I do have) you don't have the right to stereotype a sign--even if it is your sign. Moreover, what a boring discussion we'd have if only signs talked about themselves. Grade A failure and disaster, IMHO.

On another thread about water signs being good at reading people, there wasn't a huge uproar about such a trait being stereotyped about all water signs. I mean, all water signs get stereotyped as having this intense, all consuming passion, love, loyalty...etc, being intuitive--whatever.

One person (Xiiro I believe) pointed out how when threatened, Pisces can turn everyone to their side. This was listed as a 'positive trait' in that context, no one tended to object, perhaps because of the positive association. That being said, I personally feel like that generalized trait (if true) is a good example of what the OP is talking about. Are all water signs like this, no. Are all Pisces like this, no. Do they seem more inclined to be this way if we look at it as a generalized, detached concept and consideration of the energy--yes.

That being said, this 'selflessness' everyone talks about from Pisces and most water signs (sun, mainly, but other 'intense' placements as well), I have only encountered or observed when a person matters to them or when they have an emotional attachment or need. It can be very self-serving. Which, in my opinion is no different from the supposed selflessness any other sign
might display. One minute you want people to stop generalizing, the next minute it starts all over again. Lots of idealization about what water energy represents and some of it can't..well, hold water. That is ok, of course. Astrology is not black and white!

It turns into 'misunderstood,' 'walked over,' 'victimized'...etc, which is part of what the OP is asking about. Water signs get a bad rap, honestly. But when the discussion gets polarized like this is becoming--it becomes self evident why the OP has a question about being 'spin doctors' and the 'victim' generalizations come up. How can so many people all feel the same way?

Well, I bet if you get us all in a room together, talking about our problems, you would find that water signs have been no more hurt, battered, scarred and trampled over any more than anyone else. You might even find that in a room full of strangers, they are no more or less selfless or compassionate than others. We are human, stuff happens. How you respond, recover, grow and evolve is what matters.

posted February 16, 2012 02:01 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Maybe the more water a person has in their chart, and the way its placed and aspected, determines how their empathy functions?

I think of it almost like a sixth sense.

The other senses vary widely amongst people (and animals)...some people are color blind, some see color imbued with an almost spiritual essence, some have eyes like a hawk...

So, too, with empathy and how it functions? Some feel others' pain so keenly that they never want to inflict it, because then they have to partake of whatever unpleasantness they set in motion.

Some are more adept at shutting it off or selectively tuning in.

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posted February 16, 2012 02:31 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by FireWire:
Honestly, even if you are a water sign (or have dominant placements, which I do have) you don't have the right to stereotype a sign--even if it is your sign. Moreover, what a boring discussion we'd have if only signs talked about themselves. Grade A failure and disaster, IMHO.

On another thread about water signs being good at reading people, there wasn't a huge uproar about such a trait being stereotyped about all water signs. I mean, all water signs get stereotyped as having this intense, all consuming passion, love, loyalty...etc, being intuitive--whatever.

One person (Xiiro I believe) pointed out how when threatened, Pisces can turn everyone to their side. This was listed as a 'positive trait' in that context, no one tended to object, perhaps because of the positive association. That being said, I personally feel like that generalized trait (if true) is a good example of what the OP is talking about. Are all water signs like this, no. Are all Pisces like this, no. Do they seem more inclined to be this way if we look at it as a generalized, detached concept and consideration of the energy--yes.

That being said, this 'selflessness' everyone talks about from Pisces and most water signs (sun, mainly, but other 'intense' placements as well), I have only encountered or observed when a person matters to them or when they have an emotional attachment or need. It can be very self-serving. Which, in my opinion is no different from the supposed selflessness any other sign
might display. One minute you want people to stop generalizing, the next minute it starts all over again. Lots of idealization about what water energy represents and some of it can't..well, hold water. That is ok, of course. Astrology is not black and white!

It turns into 'misunderstood,' 'walked over,' 'victimized'...etc, which is part of what the OP is asking about. Water signs get a bad rap, honestly. But when the discussion gets polarized like this is becoming--it becomes self evident why the OP has a question about being 'spin doctors' and the 'victim' generalizations come up. How can so many people all feel the same way?

Well, I bet if you get us all in a room together, talking about our problems, you would find that water signs have been no more hurt, battered, scarred and trampled over any more than anyone else. You might even find that in a room full of strangers, they are no more or less selfless or compassionate than others. We are human, stuff happens. How you respond, recover, grow and evolve is what matters.

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posted February 16, 2012 03:07 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Moonfish:
Of course not, I totally agree. But as a water sign you have a better understanding of what is it to be a water sign. Simple logic. So you can share your point of view of what signs people stereotype. For example, I've read one time "If you have a water placement in moon & ascendant than your more than likely to be on drugs."
As a person who has Those placements I can rightfully say that I have NOT even touched an illegal drug.
So to put it shortly if people are going to ask what certain signs do or how they react I think it should best come from people who have that placement rather than the people that don't.

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Simple logic, yes, I agree. Effective, reliable logic, not in this case. To be honest, you can't even tell me how a water sign would react to 'any and all' scenarios I might present to you. You can tell me how you feel you'd respond as a water sign and the degree to which you feel another fellow water sign (can I buy a placement?) might respond. And that is ok, not some bad invalidating concept.

Of course you rightfully can say you've never done those things. Those are your experiences. Unfortunately, that analogy does not hold up well in the course of the discussion at hand, quite frankly because all of astrology is not left up to our experiences personal experiences. And by that I mean, their are astrologers who careers are built upon their ability to objectively dissect charts and look at energy and how that energy is manipulated by an individual, life circumstances...etc. As it were, that train of thought would mean that many astrologers would be unable to comment on other signs. Moreover, I am sure they understand how 'water energy' is handled more than some water signs themselves do.

A good question I've always wondered is how are we to separate our own individualized experiences for our 'objective' interpretation of a sign or qualities of a sign? For you, you say asc and moon might make you watery. For someone else, pluto and venus, mars and sun...the list goes on. Who's who, what's what? Who decides, and why?

So, as a water sign, I believe you can say you understand what it is to have water energy and how it manifests in your life, chart...etc, and have that experiential 'data' so to speak. You have full claim of how you experience that energy and how you perceive it as a water sign. And what it means to you to be a water sign. Others also have the right to talk about how it manifests in others, just as an astrologer would. And whether you or anyone else like it, it is not invalid because they don't have 'direct' experience as a water sign. They can make statements that are equally as valid and true. Does not, however, mean that all they say is true, valid or fair.

posted February 16, 2012 03:37 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by FireWire:
Simple logic, yes, I agree. Effective, reliable logic, not in this case. To be honest, you can't even tell me how a water sign would react to 'any and all' scenarios I might present to you. You can tell me how you feel you'd respond as a water sign and the degree to which you feel another fellow water sign (can I buy a placement?) might respond. And that is ok, not some bad invalidating concept.

Of course you rightfully can say you've never done those things. Those are your experiences. Unfortunately, that analogy does not hold up well in the course of the discussion at hand, quite frankly because all of astrology is not left up to our experiences personal experiences. And by that I mean, their are astrologers who careers are built upon their ability to objectively dissect charts and look at energy and how that energy is manipulated by an individual, life circumstances...etc. As it were, that train of thought would mean that many astrologers would be unable to comment on other signs. Moreover, I am sure they understand how 'water energy' is handled more than some water signs themselves do.

A good question I've always wondered is how are we to separate our own individualized experiences for our 'objective' interpretation of a sign or qualities of a sign? For you, you say asc and moon might make you watery. For someone else, pluto and venus, mars and sun...the list goes on. Who's who, what's what? Who decides, and why?

So, as a water sign, I believe you can say you understand what it is to have water energy and how it manifests in your life, chart...etc, and have that experiential 'data' so to speak. You have full claim of how you experience that energy and how you perceive it as a water sign. And what it means to you to be a water sign. Others also have the right to talk about how it manifests in others, just as an astrologer would. And whether you or anyone else like it, it is not invalid because they don't have 'direct' experience as a water sign. They can make statements that are equally as valid and true. Does not, however, mean that all they say is true, valid or fair.

Astrology is all about interpretation.

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Ok, but aren't our experiences suppose to determine how astrologers vaildate how our natal charts function? What is the point of listening to someone who actually has the aspects/placements if it's just how the Professionals see fit?

posted February 21, 2012 06:12 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Moonfish:
Ok, but aren't our experiences suppose to determine how astrologers vaildate how our natal charts function? What is the point of listening to someone who actually has the aspects/placements if it's just how the Professionals see fit?

What if a Pro Psychologist said "Well goths are goths because they're depressed people." When the actual truth could be that they just love the color black, the style, the art. etc. You can look at a person facial expression/outlook one way, but what they feel inside is totally different. The thing pro-astrologers is.. are they really studying the human psychology or are they basing the "facts" on greek mythology? Now don't get me wrong, I enjoy learning about astrology but how much studying was actually done to prove these interpretations of people? Though personally (not gonna lie) many traits hold truth, but generally not much. about me anyway.

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You bring up great points. I don't know historically how astrologers have validated traits. I always wonder "where did it all begin" and honestly haven't had enough of an interest to delve into those matters. Honestly. I don't know where any of these things come from--I doubt that anyone does (I am so surprised this thread didn't get attacked for you asking that question, LOL). Even I raise my eyebrows at things all the time with astrology. It becomes tough, many times, for me to accept it at face value without asking questions.