posted June 09, 2012 01:45 PM            

What's currently out right now that you're really enjoying? I'm thinking I'll pick up a book on delineating progressions, more dwad / decanate stuff, see what's new in synastry (especially karmic synastry) and delve deeper into some of the more esoteric subjects.

Any suggestions? I'll let you know if I've already got it.

Some of my (current) favourites are anything by Skalka, Rogers-Gallagher, Ellias Lonsdale, Rose Murray, and the Pottengers. Never been disappointed with any of their work.

posted June 09, 2012 01:59 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by RedScorp:
Duads always interested me, if you wanna look for something on those!

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Yeah, I'm thinking I'll start there. I've really, really gotten more deeply into them as of late. They're kinda self-explanatory, but I'm interested in how they operate. As someone mentioned here awhile ago, are they 'triggered', per say, by placements of that sign? I.E., is a Gemini Psyche in the Aquarius-dwad 'triggered' by a Psyche or Eros in Aquarius? If so, that would really explain why my best friend (Psyche, Eros, Venus AND Mars in Aquarius) triggers the Aquarius dwads in my chart - especially my Psyche. I notice he really seems to bring it out in me - perhaps more than if I were idly hanging out in, well, a vacuum.

Conversely, my husband and soul-sister both have 10' Sag prominent in their charts (his Moon, her Sun) which is Aries/Aries. They both bring out my Mercury (Scorpio, Aries-dwad) and being so close to my IC, I'm drawn to build soulful bonds with them. They get me on a deep level with the resonance of Sagittarius/Aries/Aries.

It's fascinating stuff. I love affinities - be it mutual receptions, house-sign, sign-dwad, decanate-sign-dwad, conjunction-to-sign-ruler, house-ruler-conjunct-luminary, etc. It really forms a much more complete portrait.

I'll definitely take a look there first. Thanks for the 'seconding'.

posted June 10, 2012 05:20 PM            

Oh you meant ASTROLOGICAL? Then forget what I just said

posted June 10, 2012 05:29 PM            

quote:

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50 shades of grey.

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posted June 10, 2012 06:02 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
50 shades of grey.

Oh you meant ASTROLOGICAL? Then forget what I just said

Bernadette Brady`s book on progressions, just finished Liz Greene`s on composites, and am rereading Forrests book "yesterday`s sky" on Karma.

---

OH. DEAR GOD. NO. I was asked to go on a radio show recently in regard to that book, so, NATURALLY, I HAD to read the thing. I think I got to chapter 10. Or something.

ABYSMAL writing. But, uh, it's a dominant young enigmatic CEO of a HOLDINGS COMPANY. So, OF COURSE, as I'm shaking my head at how RETARDED it all is, how PATHETIC the main character (who was SO obviously cut from Bella-cloth) and how, given the experience I've had, I know - KNOW - as in, there's no QUESTION, nobody has EVER been able to, it's just impossible, NOT the way I'm wired, and have never WANTED anyone to even APPROACH that level of control. It's their death sentence - at least our rapport's. The mere THOUGHT of it is LAUGHABLE. I mean, if ANYBODY were to say THOSE kinds of things to ME ---

Ohhhh, yeah. Guess. GUESS who I hear in my head? Saying, of course, WHAT HE'S ACTUALLY ALREADY SAID TO ME BEFORE. Did it click then? Nooooo. WHY, I'm not sure. THOSE particular thoughts were separate from THIS relationship. Oh, we've played at it. Joked about it. Mused on it. Written, uh ... certain scenes that never made it into the original story, and will gather dust on our hard drives.

But the REALITY ... oh, God, the REALITY ....

I haven't been able to pick it back up since. What oddly began as a harmless 'research assignment' forced me to confront something I'd been denying for YEARS.

Thanks, t-Pluto trine n-Venus. Love ya lots.

Criminy. I was fully under the impression that never in my life had I experienced that sort of thing outside of novelty, or in the spirit of experimentation. First, I tired of it. Meh. Just not my thing. THEN I encountered men who had no respect for my boundaries, or decided that I just needed THEM to show ME how the cow ate it. That simply inspired rage. Then I came to an understanding deep within myself that, no harm, no foul, I just don't feel that way. I just have no desire to 'belong to' anyone. I'm very devoted, but in desperate need of my freedom. I don't like love being wrapped up in obligation; I want you and I to love each other because we DO. Not because of a commitment we've made, or that we're supposed to, or because of what we owe to each other. I don't like love being entrapped that way. Entangle. I prefer love that is there because it simply IS. You just simply are, and the love you feel is a result of that bond. You don't try to be anything FOR any reason. You're honest and free of expectation, and that's how it is.

I'm grateful to have a relationship like this in my life, no matter how complicated and complex its nature. I understand that the obligations that exist in my primary relationship are necessary for the purpose of building and maintaining my home. But, oh, does it get daunting.

And it's downright ... tragic-feeling, when you realise that for which you ACTUALLY DO long so deeply, has ALWAYS BEEN THERE, and is JUST out of reach, but not. I'm willing to experience it, to enjoy it, in passing. I don't want to own it. I would never attempt to do that.

Ergo, I don't want to belong to this person. I can't accept the fleeting and intermittent 'evidence' in kind; that his own inability to 'do relationships' and live on the surface, sharing his mind, heart and soul with me, and his physical body with the woman-of-the-week, or month, or moment - is because there IS a sort of belonging already there. That, despite our outright statements to the contrary from time to time, we do.

I just don't know how to deal with this. Knowing how I'm not masochistic, and my submissive nature is really just my vulnerable femininity. And yet, the unthinkable - undergoing a temporary pain, suffering in a finite period, to yield the fantastic knowledge that he -belonged- to me, and that I was accepted as being so precious, so special, to him?

I can't believe I would do it. I can't believe I NOW understand. Was it all for that? I hoped so. I thought, it meant that now, with this newfound understanding, I could devote myself to my husband, completely and fully. Disregard that he doesn't accept my spirituality. Forget that he feels as if every one of my passions simply take me from our relationship. Disregard that I can never know if he's yearning for me, or what I'm able to DO for him, given that I KNOW know, HOW that FEELS.

But I haven't. I don't magically feel as if 'a-ha! Yes! NOW I can!' I don't suddenly feel the same. I don't yearn to be the strong, sadistic figure he craves of me - or long to belong to him completely and without question.

I LOVE him. I ADORE him. He's my husband. I CHOSE him to TAKE this journey. But he's NOT my passion. He's not ... the other 'half' of me. He's not the one for whom some unspoken, disparate part of me suddenly takes over and inwardly sobs the longer I'm apart from him. That that ... hijacks me and my good sense, leaving me muddled and depressed and yearning and confused, and angry and desperate and someone I don't even RECOGNISE anymore.

I know this is all for a reason - even if my husband doesn't understand this about me, and never will. Doesn't want to. Can't. I'm willing to just love him for who he is, and hope that he can accept me for who I am, really and truly.

I just wish I could stop longing for the one who does. Who just gets me without my explaining it. Who just sees the world the way I do; who wasn't influenced by my own worldview, but has learnt from me as I have from him. My muse. The one I KNOW I can never -be- with, as that's just not part of what we're about. And yet, God, can I EVER stop longing?

-sigh- ANYWAY. Switching gears now.

I love Brady, by the way. The progressions book seems like a definite. Adding 'Yesterday's Sky' to the list, too. That sounds wonderful.

Thanks, Ceri. Hope all is chugging along satisfactorily in your corner of the universe. Mine is ... intact.

posted June 11, 2012 09:42 AM            

quote:

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OH. DEAR GOD. NO. I was asked to go on a radio show recently in regard to that book, so, NATURALLY, I HAD to read the thing. I think I got to chapter 10. Or something.

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posted June 11, 2012 12:25 PM            

honestly. Some weeks ago I was made aware that apparently EVERYONE was talking about it, just i had not heard a single word on it.

Well, I started reading it and seriously I did not even made it to chapter 10. It is just so godawful writing, and so so so boring.
Yes I know the subject is meant to be spicey, just, well, there is not even an interesting story behind it.

But I thought I might be the only one, as I remember having been "torn apart" when mentioning that I thought "Twilight" was quite bad writing as well.
Though I was impressed at the description of the phases of her lovesickness. But other than that - well, I stopped reading it as well, Never made it to the fourth book. Partly because I was horrified, HORRIFIED at the example this is setting. No, not the No-Sex-before-Marriage-part. It was more the part where Edward was locking Bella away so she could not see her friends (granted this friend was a werewolf. lol).
But anyway take away the vampire/werewolf scene and what you have is a potentially abusive manipulative boyfriend.
*shudders*
Of course I know it is probably only me seeing it like that.
But I am a teacher, I see 13 year old girls, who think because of this book this is NORMAL behaviour for a boyfriend, and it is ROMANTIC:
No, it`s not. Trusting you and giving you space and letting you be yourself, THAT is romantic.

posted June 11, 2012 12:26 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by RedScorp:
I just read a post on tumblr about 50 Shades of Grey...it was about people and how they are taking the story and basing their own sexual acts off of it. I think that's rather unsafe (safety words are a must!), but people are actually doing it. The post would go on to explain how it is unsafe and stuff, and provided links to educate people who want to get into that kinda stuff. 'Cause you know. Doing it based off of a novel is a good idea.

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You`re kidding, right?

posted June 11, 2012 12:29 PM            

50 Shades of Grey.

posted June 11, 2012 05:03 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by RedScorp:
I just read a post on tumblr about 50 Shades of Grey...it was about people and how they are taking the story and basing their own sexual acts off of it. I think that's rather unsafe (safety words are a must!), but people are actually doing it. The post would go on to explain how it is unsafe and stuff, and provided links to educate people who want to get into that kinda stuff. 'Cause you know. Doing it based off of a novel is a good idea.

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BDSM is NOT new. The woman DOES know what she's talking about. None of that is anything I've not either done personally, witnessed, provided therapy regarding, and so on.

But for the 'vanilla world', as they say, it's definitely an eye-opener. For ME, as I'd said in my stupidly detailed post-response, (oh, Scorpio Moon-Mercury-Uranus; why do you do that at times?) the real 'shocker' for me was something that I hadn't considered in my own life, and am (slightly) re-evaluating. Slightly. VERY slightly.

But, no, I'm a HUGE activist against what I call 'blind BDSM', i.e., engaging in potentially psychologically, emotionally, and physically damaging sexual practises without the knowledge, awareness, and understanding of WHERE these needs originated, and HOW they operate in one's relationship. It's what I built a practise on.

Ugh. Stupid people. THANK YOU FOR THIS. I'll be SURE to address it in my upcoming radio appearance. Augh. Stupid. People.

posted June 11, 2012 05:04 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Which book are you referring to here?

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50 Shades of Grey. As a sometimes-occasionally-still-practising-with-a-select-clientele alternative sex therapist, it's kind of the bane of my professional existence right now. -laugh-

-A.

posted June 11, 2012 05:19 PM            

quote:

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You`re kidding, right?

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posted June 11, 2012 06:02 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
Indigo,

Honestly. Some weeks ago I was made aware that apparently EVERYONE was talking about it, just i had not heard a single word on it.

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Exactly! Back in ... March? I believe? I was contacted by the programming director of a NY radio show (whose focus is on general sex practises) to appear in regards to the book, considering my clientele ranges from the abused to those engaged in BDSM (uhhh, there's a LOT of overlap ... ) and, honestly, I thought it was some reference title.

HOW I actually FOUND the damned thing? You won't believe this ...

My MOM tells me that the daughter of the housekeeper we had in my adolescence had started a website called 'Writer's Coffee Shoppe' - and she said this in ... January, I think. And me, as usual, who can't find her a** with both hands when Neptune is dicking with her Mars and Saturn's on her Sun, REALLY made an attempt to try and remember to check that out. ... Yeah. So. FINALLY, late April, she links me to it, KNOWING that that's what it's going to take. -laugh- I click said link, and ...

THEY published the book!

So, I figured, OKAY, UNIVERSE. FINE. I'LL LOOK AT THIS BLOODY THING. Criminy.

My stepdaughter is right next to me, as I'm rolling my eyes at the 'mommy porn' categorisation, hah, reading something far better written, and I scare the living daylights out of her when I shout, 'YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!' It's kinda like they took MY character, (though, they OBVIOUSLY didn't) smushed some of my OTHER character's personality into him, and made him a dominant.

And, DAMN, if that's not just a LITTLE bit ... okay, a LOT a bit -- sexy.

And who wrote said character? Yeah. Who PLAYS said character?

...

Commence going insane. Completely, bleeding mad.

So, here I am, NOW aware of the damned thing, READING the damned thing, CRINGING at the language, SHOCKED that it's in development as a film right now, HORRIFIED that Alexander Skarsgard wants to play the titular role ... AUGH. THIS WORLD CONFUSES ME SO.

And then, based on the whole, oh, somebody popping into my head at TOTAL RANDOM, and every fibre of my being going, 'But ... but you don't ... but that's not ... YOU'RE NOT LIKE THAT!' I just had to put the thing down.

quote:

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Well, I started reading it and seriously I did not even made it to chapter 10. It is just so godawful writing, and so so so boring. Yes I know the subject is meant to be spicey, just, well, there is not even an interesting story behind it.

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I agree wholeheartedly. It's bad writing, and a story which makes NO sense. The ONLY thing that I can KINDA grok in this scenario is if twinflames met in this humorous way, and they're both like, 'OMG, WHY do you affect me like this? In a way that NOBODY has ever done before?' Because, yeah. We get that. -laugh- But when it's mousy protagonist who is either - uh, average? Or just has the worst self-image ever? Seriously. Is she really drop-dead gorgeous, and just doesn't believe it, per what her friends say, and Grey says, or what? I make it very clear how my characters are and appear with minor differences between perception.

Take my character in the upcoming series, (one of them; I actually play two). Fiona. She's Lane's assistant, and since Lane is Mr uber-powerful young enigmatic CEO of holdings company (you SEE why I was like, 'WTF, are you kidding me?') who has the option of having casual encounters with any woman he wants whenever, the fact that she really IS the one he cares about, goes to when it matters, and considers the only confidante he has - makes it pretty clear to the audience that she's important to him. She doesn't have the greatest ever opinion of herself - because she's constantly measuring it against supermodels and Hollywood actresses and whichever bombshell Lane saw the night before. She's obviously attractive in her own right; not a supermodel, and hasn't had the guts to really establish herself due to a bunch of internal factors. When she has the rare opportunity of actually dolling up thanks to her Italian fashionista best friend, EVERYBODY notices - not just Lane. She CAN do it. Just like most of us can DECIDE to look our best and the world WILL notice. (She's also got Venus rising - ahem.)

But I don't get the deal with ... what's her name? Anastasia? Right. I saw her as being super-average, (as, again, she was culled from Bella, who IS intentionally the 'everywoman') which, sure, does NOT make sense as to why Grey would be into her, EXCEPT as a submissive. 'This chick can't even walk into a room without falling over on her face.' Like a kinky Henry Higgins. Okay, sure. MAYBE he'll fall in love with her. Later.

But THAT actually HAPPENS. More than you'd realise. Dominant man with power finds woman who needs a LOT of help, she's immediately drunk on his attention, captivated by his power, and willing to pretty much be anything he wants her to be. His 'property'. And, sometimes, they DO get married. Most of the time, they end up becoming dominant women in their own right after several years, which MAY lead to a VERY painful break-up, or staying good friends, with their former dominant being in their memory fondly as their mentor. It just depends on the evolution of the people involved, obviously. And the education, and sense, and so on and so on.

THAT's a real story. This one? God. Mind-numbing. Why does Grey give a damn? Oh, I get that 'he doesn't even know' but, come on. Cop out. Again. If we're dealing with honest-to-goodness twinflames here, THAT's cool. But this EL James or whatever doesn't have the evolution to grok that I'll wager. I know not for certain, but it's a bet I'll take.

I THINK it was chapter 10 I got to, but I can't say. They all ran together. But I've ALWAYS been a good student. Even if I HATED the research material, ohhhh, I'd grit my teeth and soldier on. I finally told the programming director when she called me to confirm the recording date that 'I actually DID start reading it. But it's a POS, and I hope you just want my expertise - not a book report.' Thank God, they do. Because, I ... no. I have standards. I have LIMITS.

EVERYTHING A PERSON DOES DOES NOT HAVE TO BE 'IMPASSIVELY'. It reminds me of the Stephen King rant from 'On Writing': Look that one up. His criticism of a particular writer's favouring the word 'zestfully' to where it became a ridiculous echo. Like 'impassivity' - how much can you REALLY do 'zestfully' without it seeming trite and just incorrect before long? (Not to mention, a certain Irish Spring advert coming into your head EVERY time?)

I hate echoes - unless we're talking in plot or story or across timelines with sychronicitious meaning. THOSE, I love. But just using the same damned word, over and over again, because you can't either bother to pick up a friggin' thesaurus, or IMPROVE your vocabulary - no. Amateur alert, or, you just didn't care enough about your own work which is INexCUsable.

quote:

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But I thought I might be the only one, as I remember having been "torn apart" when mentioning that I thought "Twilight" was quite bad writing as well.

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You and me both, sister. Join the club. We're called the 'sensible folk' with 'good taste'. No offence to anyone who found it an entertaining read, but I've outgrown that kind of material. (Which is a polite way to put it; I don't think I was ever really into it, but I won't fault those who are. Each their own, says the Libran.)

quote:

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Though I was impressed at the description of the phases of her lovesickness.

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Y'know, while it got contrived, there were moments in there I too actually found ... soulful. As if she was really speaking from her own heart and experience. That was nice. It felt genuine.

quote:

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But other than that - well, I stopped reading it as well, Never made it to the fourth book.

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I've seen it's a series. I can't get through 'Shades' though.

quote:

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Partly because I was horrified, HORRIFIED at the example this is setting. No, not the No-Sex-before-Marriage-part. It was more the part where Edward was locking Bella away so she could not see her friends (granted this friend was a werewolf. lol).

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-sigh- Welcome to why I began practising therapy. -I- was horrified at what -I- SAW. It seemed that BDSM was being used as a 'get-out-of-being-an-abusive-asshat-free' card. Really. And ... I've suffered abuse. REAL abuse. I get 'play' abuse used for catharsis by two individuals who REALLY KNOW WHAT THE HELL IT IS THEY'RE DOING. But that's sadly rare, and you DON'T START THERE. It takes WORK, and practise, and understanding, and LOVE.

But these men ... these power-hungry, power-tripping, world's-done-me-wrong broken examples of masculinity just want to find an impressionable young woman who wants to be guided and loved and twist her concept of that until she's no different from a victim of Stockholm.

AND THAT WAS SOMETHING FOR WHICH I ABSOLUTELY WOULD NOT STAND.

I rioted. I spoke out. I attacked. I 'libeled'. I rallied. I was loved, and hated, but more than anything, remembered. I helped people. I confronted abusers. I ... hope I made a difference. Somewhere. That, by the time Alice left Wonderland, the Queen was - at least a bit bloodied. Roughed-up. Thinking more carefully about how messed-up and dark and terrible Wonderland had become. How ruined and broken its people.

And then, I had to get out. OUT OUT OUT. AWAY. From ALL of it. EVERYONE. The empathy, the compassion ... it started to consume me. I couldn't breathe. I saw a world I couldn't fix, and something in me wanted SO badly to try.

So there are parts of this book that scream to me of the reality I know exists and that I've seen. And for THAT, I almost penned a letter to James myself. 'It's people like YOU that PERPETUATE this HORRIBLE ... ' But what would it resolve? It remains unfinished. For the sake of my own sanity, I feel.

quote:

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But anyway take away the vampire/werewolf scene and what you have is a potentially abusive manipulative boyfriend.
*shudders*

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Yeah. Take away the -monstrousness- and you have REAL monstrousness. The human monster. The kind in which I specialise. -fingertwirl-

quote:

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Of course I know it is probably only me seeing it like that.

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I promise you, I assure you, it's not. You're rational. Sane. Compassionate. You're seeing it for what it IS. Kudos to you. I know how hard that is.

quote:

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But I am a teacher, I see 13 year old girls, who think because of this book this is NORMAL behaviour for a boyfriend, and it is ROMANTIC.

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... not gonna cry, not gonna cry. Can't save the world, can't help them all, useless to try ... not gonna cry ... Not. Gonna. Cry.

quote:

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No, it`s not. Trusting you and giving you space and letting you be yourself, THAT is romantic.

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That's what I'm trying to put out there with my own work. So far, so good. With those of us, like myself, doing that, maybe some day, we'll be able to outnumber the EL James and other oblivious idiots who think that sending this message to our impressionable youth is a good idea. Hell, to our impressionable aging, longing for love, and deciding that, well, it didn't work here, so MAYBE ... THIS is the answer .... I've counselled them, too. God help us all.

quote:

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Rant over. lol

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Oh, yeah? I think mine's just beginning. -laugh-

You're a cool chica, Ceri. I'm really happy to've had the opportunity to cross digital paths with you.

-A.

posted June 13, 2012 09:24 AM            

I have just read (Wikipedia) that she personally was working by M15 and after leaving, she started to write.

posted June 13, 2012 09:56 AM            

The bdsm in it isn't that shocking to me (an ex and I used to use his ties), especially in the age of Internet porn although it does a good job of explaining the psychological functions behind it. Ana and Christian also practice safe sex (using condoms, safe words, getting regularly checked for stds).

Also it is SO obvious it's supposed to be Bella and Edward, although I find Ana less annoying than Bella. Speaking of: do people really identify with Bella/Ana? I never have, they're too Pollyanna for me.

posted June 13, 2012 10:59 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
Faith,

50 Shades of Grey.

WEll, maybe this is a topic for "sweet peas-forum.

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posted June 13, 2012 02:51 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by bonadea33:
In last two years I have read so many crime novels that now read second time crime novel about terrorism from English Novelist: Stella Rimington.

I have just read (Wikipedia) that she personally was working by M15 and after leaving, she started to write.

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Yes. The greatest novelists of a particular tradecraft typically lived the life, or were on the inside of the field.

Which is why one of my mentors was the hostage negotiator for the Waco 'massacre' as he called it. Yes, he fell out of favour with the FBI for his 'overly humanitarian' approach, but he taught me more than I could have imagined.

I hope, once I get back to my crime drama work, it will show through the pages, as my own training in forensics was once commented upon in the first of that series.

Training, experience, first- and second-hand knowledge pay off dividends for the writer whose genre is more niche, and professional.

EL James is a hack. She's interviewed and talked with people, but has NO CLUE of the lifestyle. I have very little respect for hacks, and, to some degree, as 'pretentious' as it sounds - some pity.

posted June 13, 2012 03:05 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by amowls**:
I'm reading 50 Shades too and yeah, the writing is horrendous. She uses the same clichés over and OVER. Like, it was lame the first time you said it, stop repeating it (ie: calling computers "mean machines," "errant child," "inner goddess," etc).

The bdsm in it isn't that shocking to me (an ex and I used to use his ties), especially in the age of Internet porn although it does a good job of explaining the psychological functions behind it. Ana and Christian also practice safe sex (using condoms, safe words, getting regularly checked for stds).

Also it is SO obvious it's supposed to be Bella and Edward, although I find Ana less annoying than Bella. Speaking of: do people really identify with Bella/Ana? I never have, they're too Pollyanna for me.

As far as astrology books... I've downloaded a bunch of ebooks about solar returns.

---

Bella has always been like a strange 'MarySue' subversion to me - which is why it's oddly fitting that this literal fanfiction-created version of her would become this new character.

While James' publisher (of whom I'm familiar) made sure that she instituted plenty of safety measures, (hello, lawsuit?) I see nothing regarding the psychological dynamics here. Just kinda reminds me of my first date with my husband. (Minus the ties. I have to admit, there's something terribly, wonderfully sexy about the tie. I've used that in my own work in places, so I'm guilty of getting a little fluttery about it myself.)

There's ONE thing I liked about it, which I recalled from my own experiences, as I've either been with, trained, or counselled dozens of submissive men. Anastasia's reflection upon the impressions the tie has left upon her skin. Subs DO like to have some sort of reminder of what they've done - a sacrifice they've made in some regard, to 'please' the dominant partner. It's deeply fulfilling to them.

I used to think you're one way or the other, and the most adjusted of us are a healthy balance of both. (Puh. Libran much?) After three years of my practise, and countless hours of studying and experience from a clinical, apprenticing, and personal standpoint, I think it's 80% how you're wired, and 20% the person. And those numbers can vary and adjust dramatically according to the depth of the relationship. Some dommes, (such as myself) can be almost entirely dominant in personality, but in encountering another dominant, if there's just something about that person, and a true bond develops, they can surprise themselves by how forcefully, powerfully, even completely their natural submissive nature emerges. I've seen it happen - in rare instances.

That's a story to me, personally. The Anastasia / Bella character is too cardboard cutout and confused to me. I don't know WHAT she is. Young and sexless because she just isn't interested? Yeah, okay, fine, that was me at that age. I'll admit it. I had bigger dreams, goals, and plans. I lost respect for this character when she ditched ALL of it in favour of behaving boorishly, and being sucked into Grey's charms. Oh, she held off - and acted like a skittish seventeen-year-old. And I got REALLY tired of her inner high school drama monologuing.

As for Grey ... yeah. I've known guys like him. Mr Bigshot Millionaires who wander into the party and expecting the sea of people to part like he's friggin' Moses. I couldn't figure if I found him compelling, or an asshat, or sympathetic, or confused, or what. Confused, is what I'm sticking with. I get when people behave contrary to their desires or paradigms - to their own confusion. But there's got to be SOMETHING more to back that up, or I scream 'writer cop-out!' Great. You finished your story. But do you not SEE the gaping holes in it?

Augh. Rant over.

posted June 13, 2012 03:14 PM            

I will reply to your post later inm ore detail (too knackered right now and short of time),

but you wrote a "signalword" in your last post, calling Bella a "Mary Sue". That was EXACTLY what I thought as soon as I read the first novel!
How a Mary Sue becomes the heroine? lol

I think to a certain point Elena from Vampire Diaries is a Mary Sue as well. To be honest I love almost any character in Vampire Diaries EXCEPT for Elena. Seems everyone is falling for her (Mary Sue alert!), and yet she is so selfabsorbed and selfrighteous, it is unbelievable.

For me the character of Caroline (in Vampire Diaries) turned out to be a surprise. Cause I thought she would stay your stereotype blonde shallow cheerleader, but not so. I didn`t expect the way her character developed.

posted June 13, 2012 04:00 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lonake:
I just stumbled upon the author Richard Tarnas. Just started reading The Passion of the Western Mind: Understanding the Ideas That Have Shaped Our World View and next up is his book Cosmos and Psyche: Intimations of a New World View (the latter touches on astrology, the former does not). We have the same Sun and Merc so that may be why I'm finding him so relatable. Another astro book I'm gonna look at is Generational Patterns Using Astrology by Edwin Rose since I'm concerned with major patterns at the moment.

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Oh, wow. Hefty stuff. Thank you, Lonake. They both sound fascinating, and definite adds to the list.

posted June 13, 2012 04:51 PM            

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
Indigo,

I will reply to your post later inm ore detail (too knackered right now and short of time),

but you wrote a "signalword" in your last post, calling Bella a "Mary Sue". That was EXACTLY what I thought as soon as I read the first novel!
How a Mary Sue becomes the heroine? lol

I think to a certain point Elena from Vampire Diaries is a Mary Sue as well. To be honest I love almost any character in Vampire Diaries EXCEPT for Elena. Seems everyone is falling for her (Mary Sue alert!), and yet she is so selfabsorbed and selfrighteous, it is unbelievable.

For me the character of Caroline (in Vampire Diaries) turned out to be a surprise. Cause I thought she would stay your stereotype blonde shallow cheerleader, but not so. I didn`t expect the way her character developed.

Anyway, sorry for jumping between series here, but I just find in current supernatural shows there are quite a lot of Mary Sue`s running around, and it annoys me a bit.

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Ah, you're right - it's 'Mary Sue'. I'm just so used to having it be a prefix: 'MarySue!CharacterName' that I run them together automatically.

I actually read an article on why 'Twilight' became so friggin' popular because it just mystifies me. The explanation, which I found a good one, was that Bella is a curious everywoman figure. She's easily relatable to the masses of female readers due to her averageness and 'nothing special'. When my friend lived with us a couple of years ago, and left the first Southern Vampire Series novel on my coffee-table before going grocery shopping, it was like someone's personal diary being left out in the open, and I circled it several times before going, 'Oh, what the hell.' I was really, really pleasantly surprised. I found that I liked Sookie, and the characterisations of those around her were mostly fine with me, even though she DID give off the Mary-Sue vibe, with e-e-e-veryone going gaga over her - which I've heard 'True Blood' has just run with. (I quit watching after the second season. No particular reason; not in protest. I've got too much writing to do, and it didn't cut the mustard in terms of my prioritising).

I get that a woman who's a telepath would probably become a useful acquisition to non-telepaths, and that one of the most powerful draws for such a character would be encountering true mystery in another. I've played that game myself, years before, with another series I've shelved until further development. It's a solid move, if I do say so myself.

But I just could find nothing redeeming about 'Twilight'. The writing was 'meh', (but then just about everything since Fitzgerald, then Katie Roiphe in college, and later, Jeff Lindsay, has just not impressed me in the modern-lit sphere) the characters were SO UN-relatable to me, and I felt as if she was making a complete mockery of a genre I not only loved, but had also written in: gothic romance / thriller. MY inspiration came from Stoker. Shelley. Doyle and Poe, thank you. Yeeeesh.

I get nervous (and nervy) about characters becoming too much 'the centre' of romantic intrigue. If every man in the story is in some way after horizontal-time with your heroine, you may need to re-evaluate things.

This is one of the reasons why I have tremendous respect for the project I'm doing now. Since its origins are collaborative, EVERY character in this thing was someone's baby - not just mine and my best friend's. So, to be true to the original work, an inherent objectivity is present. Even the villain. He was written with such dedication and love that even his most heinous acts seem to be rooted in a higher cause. Frightening.

And, apologetically, without tooting (our) own horn(s) here, but that's the standard to which I hold creative works these days. I want the villains to be ABOUT something, rather than mustache twirlers, or just confused. I want the heroines to have REAL depth, not manufactured 'depth'. Profundity for its sake or - God, even worse - the illusion of it. I like antiheroes for this reason. Bring in the guy who really doesn't want to be there, riddled with personal demons, who wants to be more than he is. And, please, give him some personality? Some background? And, for chrissake, a REASON as to WHY he seeks this personal elevation? Outside of the author's favourite trick: because the story calls for it?

I could rant on this AD NAUSEAM. So, I'm going to stop here.