posted July 23, 2012 05:22 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
So basically, I have to give up my need to emote and be heard with them, and they have to give up nothing, and I just have to play magic mind reader and am expected to just know what they mean? They don't have to make any effort with me, but I have to bend over backwards for them?

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posted July 23, 2012 07:12 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by VenusDiSirius:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
[b]So basically, I have to give up my need to emote and be heard with them, and they have to give up nothing, and I just have to play magic mind reader and am expected to just know what they mean? They don't have to make any effort with me, but I have to bend over backwards for them?

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No! Just that's not how they roll : intimately,before you are friends.[/B][/QUOTE]

All right.

posted July 23, 2012 07:33 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
All right.

Honestly, I wish that I could be compassionate towards Cap moon/Cap Venus, but I'm not there yet, though I would like to be, and even though some relationships with the ones that I know are lost causes, I do want to improve things with the ones I may meet later. So, I'll try to let what you explained sink in for awhile, and try to understand it better. Thanks for discussing this with me, and feel free to add anything if you like.

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Sure
Cap doesn't want compassion,that's a gift,and Caps work for everything,build everything - compassion,and this is bit of a long shot,can be seen as offensive. They want it real,both with good and bad sides of their personality. Compassion involves sentiments when you feel for them,"hey,you are not alone,happens to many" - and they roll on their own,and hate excuses,proud people,and it's pride that shapes all of their relations. Compassion can show you as morally superior,and they hate when you use that against them - preaching is not an answer,working it out is.

posted July 23, 2012 08:05 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by VenusDiSirius:
Sure
Cap doesn't want compassion,that's a gift,and Caps work for everything,build everything - compassion,and this is bit of a long shot,can be seen as offensive. They want it real,both with good and bad sides of their personality. Compassion involves sentiments when you feel for them,"hey,you are not alone,happens to many" - and they roll on their own,and hate excuses,proud people,and it's pride that shapes all of their relations. Compassion can show you as morally superior,and they hate when you use that against them - preaching is not an answer,working it out is.

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By compassion, I simply meant not feeling so angry at them and annoyed with them, which is hard.

Also, I have tried to go to a Cap and be real, and was just deliberately ignored and avoided. That person is still icy to me. I blocked and defriended her, am not speaking to her or even making eye contact (and I won't change that, either, unless that person decides to stop acting that way, which won't happen) and have just written it off as a loss. So, it doesn't work.

I just feel frustrated because it seems like you're screwed no matter how you treat them. Be nice, they hate that. Be cold, you don't get to be friends. Being a Cancer moon, it's unnatural for me to be avoidant and cold. It feels wrong to me and makes me uncomfortable to have to walk on eggshells and not be allowed to have feelings or express anything or talk to people. If I have to just erase myself to please someone, then why bother? That's not fair to me, and it's not right.

If people want me to give them what they need, they have to do three things.

1) They have to very clearly and very directly tell me what they need.

2) They have to be willing to meet me halfway and give me what I need.

3) They have to let me know, if they're asking me to be cold to them, that they still like me. They have to make it very clear that they still think that I am OK, and that they are not avoiding me--that they are just taking a time-out for themselves to regroup. They have to tell me this clearly.

The more information that I have, the more compassionate I can be, and the more giving and accommodating.

And, too, if people are clear and direct with me, I will eventually be able to pick up what they want and will eventually know intuitively that things are still OK even if they need space. For that to happen, though, they do need to be clear, and they need to act like things are still OK. I honestly don't want to be clingy or annoying, but I need some stability and security. Only when I get to a point of feeling genuinely secure with someone will I not worry when they need space, because I'll know by then that they like me and will come back because they have clearly demonstrated that. However, if they don't demonstrate that, I don't make the assumption that things are fine, because I know that most people just 'quit' people without talking things out with them.

posted July 23, 2012 09:33 AM            

As for cap moon and small talk, well I do small talk if people engage it with me. I don't strike small conversation with people I don't know to get to know them (which I find to be quite an issue) but if someone comes and talk to me I won't cut them and push them away.
But the point is small talk isn't enough to be friends with someone for me. There's no substance with in it, at best it's fun, entertaining, at worst with some people it really feels like they just want to know basic information about me not because they want to know me but simply out of curiosity and to judge me based on those.
Small talk is more out of politeness or being "social" than actually making friends or getting to know someone to me, especially at parties or other social event.

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From what you're saying, it seems like that's what they really want--to be left alone. How on earth can you be friends with someone like that? You mention actions being important to them, but it sounds like one has to fit this rigid mold of what they consider acceptable, and honestly, realistically, how can they expect that? And I feel confused and frustrated when you say that they "want the good and the bad", but when they get the good, they are horrid about it. Can you elaborate more on that, please? Do they just want people to act horrible so that they'll feel superior or honor some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy that people are awful? Or for some reason? Again, I'm not wishing to be insulting, but it makes no logical sense to me.

I honestly do want to understand, but I just feel annoyed that they cannot see (or else just don't care) how much they push people away and how much they hurt people by acting like that, and yet some complain about not having friends or being 'misunderstood'. It's not really fair to expect someone to understand you if you do not communicate your needs, which I am learning myself firsthand. It isn't an easy thing to do, but doing so gives the other person a fair chance to understand you and meet you halfway. It's not fair to expect someone to conform to your standards if you don't even make your standards known clearly to the other person, in a way that they understand. It's even more unfair if you refuse to meet them halfway.

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posted July 23, 2012 09:45 AM            

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I just feel frustrated because it seems like you're screwed no matter how you treat them. Be nice, they hate that. Be cold, you don't get to be friends. Being a Cancer moon, it's unnatural for me to be avoidant and cold. It feels wrong to me and makes me uncomfortable to have to walk on eggshells and not be allowed to have feelings or express anything or talk to people. If I have to just erase myself to please someone, then why bother? That's not fair to me, and it's not right.

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posted July 23, 2012 09:46 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ueharaa:
As for cap moon and small talk, well I do small talk if people engage it with me. I don't strike small conversation with people I don't know to get to know them (which I find to be quite an issue) but if someone comes and talk to me I won't cut them and push them away.

But the point is small talk isn't enough to be friends with someone for me. There's no substance with in it, at best it's fun, entertaining, at worst with some people it really feels like they just want to know basic information about me not because they want to know me but simply out of curiosity and to judge me based on those.
Small talk is more out of politeness or being "social" than actually making friends or getting to know someone to me, especially at parties or other social event.

I am not sure if it will address your point correctly and I don' know what your experience has been with former cap moons (though I do believe that there's always more than a sun/moon or venus sign behind a specific behavior) but I do admit that, in my case, I do tend to act as if I want to be left alone and sometimes can even appear as someone who pushes people away. I'm very much introverted and can appear as quite a loner especially when I'm focused on some goals that require my full attention and efforts. In those cases it goes as far as finding myself doing the "cap disappearing act". I can't seem able to sustain a healthy social life and interactions while at the same being preoccupied of whether what i'm doing is going to work out or not. But as much as I need my space from time to time that doesn't mean I'm pushing people away or cutting contact with them altogether. And even if I'm introverted/have a hard time going to people and just talking to them, that doesn't mean that if they do I'll make them arrested for invading my personal space, I'll most likely gladly talk to them... Cap moons aren't necessarily mean, and goal oriented and cold, even if they may appear as such. It just takes a lot of time to warm up and be close to them because a lot have their guard up (at least I know I do)

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For me, small talk is how I start to feel comfortable with people. It's how I feel socially relaxed, and when people respond to me, it's how I know that I'm doing an OK job. I have Asperger's, and even though I'm on the mild end of it, I worry pretty much constantly about not coming off as creepy or inappropriate or weird. So, I absolutely need feedback that I'm doing OK. I don't assume that I am if I do not get some kind of feedback about it.

For me, I build on small talk. Once I am comfortable talking to someone about little things, I can move on to deeper things. I don't go for deeper things right off the bat unless someone else is comfortable with it and goes there first. I know that people don't like intense people, so I try to hide that and bury it until someone indicates to me that it's OK to let it out. I don't want to freak people out, so I do hold off on depth until I feel like it's OK to start testing the waters. I build on things. It's like math. I can't be expected to do geometry if I haven't been taught what angles are or the terminology or anything. I can't be expected to find a hypotenuse if I have no idea what that is. I need to get the basics down before I move on to advanced. That's why small talk is important: to me, that's the "addition and subtraction" of social interaction. Only when I've mastered that with someone can I move on to bigger things.

The Cap moons that I've known never respond back to me when I try to get to know them, and have been very cruel when I've tried to iron out misunderstandings. They have hurt me a lot.

I'm an introvert too, but a highly social one. I honestly like to get to know people (provided that they aren't creepy nasty types hitting on me or something like that), especially if I see a really good quality in them, like intelligence or depth or an interesting way of seeing the world.

posted July 23, 2012 09:49 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ueharaa:
It's not as easy (or difficult) as you put it. I love it when people are nice to me. Genuinely nice. If someone is nice out of politeness I'll still appreciate it. If you're cold, well there's zero chance I'll care about you. It might be my cancer ascendant but I love it when people talk to me about heir feelings or how they feel about some situation. Sharing feelings is what makes me feel close to people, much closer than sharing intellectual ideas or else. But I do admit that Capricorn people can appear avoidant and cold. I don't think it is directed to other people though. I believe it comes from an inner need to be serious and to be effective at the work you do, making priority to what needs to be done rather than going after what we need emotionally.

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Again, though, I have tried to be open with them, and polite, and nice. I never get a good response with that, even though I am being genuine.

So, yeah, I will turn cold after awhile, because I get sick of being treated that way. Plus, if someone is cold to me, it tells me that they think that I'm creepy and that I make them uncomfortable, so I avoid them. I feel embarrassed. I also feel that if I was wrong about it, they would contact me and let me know that it was a misunderstanding, or would find some way of telling me that. By just letting it slide, and be being icy, it tells me that I am not wrong in thinking that they have a problem with me.

posted July 23, 2012 10:22 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:

If people want me to give them what they need, they have to do three things.

1) They have to very clearly and very directly tell me what they need.

2) They have to be willing to meet me halfway and give me what I need.

3) They have to let me know, if they're asking me to be cold to them, that they still like me. They have to make it very clear that they still think that I am OK, and that they are not avoiding me--that they are just taking a time-out for themselves to regroup. They have to tell me this clearly.

The more information that I have, the more compassionate I can be, and the more giving and accommodating.

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posted July 23, 2012 02:41 PM            

I don't think this has anything to do with self-worth issues, I myself don't like to hug people either (unless I'm feeling extremely emotional about something in particular but it doesn't happen very often) and it also makes me feel weird when people make big displays of emotions.

posted July 23, 2012 04:20 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by VenusDiSirius:
Sure
Cap doesn't want compassion,that's a gift,and Caps work for everything,build everything - compassion,and this is bit of a long shot,can be seen as offensive. They want it real,both with good and bad sides of their personality. Compassion involves sentiments when you feel for them,"hey,you are not alone,happens to many" - and they roll on their own,and hate excuses,proud people,and it's pride that shapes all of their relations. Compassion can show you as morally superior,and they hate when you use that against them - preaching is not an answer,working it out is.

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posted July 24, 2012 07:19 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by VenusDiSirius:
You speak about Caps wanting to have thier needs met,only,and you are into conditioning as well.By the manner you stress «they have to» you reveal that rigid mold you attribute to Caps is strong in you too - which is a Water trait,the need of a container (piece of genius observation by lalalinda) but the rigidity on Caps's side is reflected in their set of principles and moral,not in emotional matters.
When you are rejected,but you keep on coming back,without apparent reason (reason that you want to be on good terms is not good enough,especially if you don't know each other very long) is suspicious and not at all genuine affection.
Really,once you get to know them and love them,you won't be denied affection.

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Well, I don't just keep coming back. I will try a few times to make nice with people, but I will give up. I don't want to be seen as weird or creepy, and don't want to make people uncomfortable, so I will block, defriend, be icy, and refuse to speak to people after they treat me like they do not like me. I do the right thing and am socially appropriate by being just cold back, sometimes colder. I'm not like a stalker or anything. I'm also not a physically demonstrative person, and don't usually like hugs, so I'm not like that with her (or anybody).

And I can't get to know them when they won't let me and are rude to me. I mean, how can you get to know someone like that? You can't. You can't get to know people when they act like I've described. I honestly feel confused by your last response because it seems like you're saying that people prefer that I avoid them and stay away from them, but that they'll supposedly not act like that if I get to know them, but I can't get to know people if they don't want me around and I have to avoid them. I hate to keep asking for clarity, but could you maybe explain that in a different way, if that's not what you mean? I'm having a hard time sorting that out--which is on me, not you. You're not doing a bad job explaining; I just feel lost and confused.

posted July 24, 2012 07:20 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ueharaa:
Yes, I do understand the point you made about small talk. Especially about it being how one can be comfortable with other people.
It does take a lot of small talk to me to really warm up to someone, and it would be more personal small talk. I feel comfortable around people who talk to me about them, their life, their ideas, people who share bits about themselves with me make me feel comfortable because I don't feel intrusive or a bother, and only then can I start sharing about myself too.

Now that you mention it maybe Iv'e been unresponsive to some people who made small talk with me. And I do realize that unless I find myself bound to interact with someone on a daily basis, I just don't pursue people I've met to get to know them better which could appear as cold and give an "I don't care about you" vibe. But I don't because I don't assume people are somewhat interested in getting to know me. I believe it's also a cap moon trait to not only feel that people are worthy of them but, most importantly, to feel that they are worthy of people. If people don't make me feel like I'm worth their time, and I feel like I'm bothering/annoying them I simply won't bother contacting them or anything.
What you described though is different since you mentioned actually trying to iron out the misunderstandings. There's not just being cold here, they're being rude to me. I do reckon cap moons to be somewhat hard to read and thus can appear emotion-less and cold and all but if you've made efforts to bond with them and they don't respond then they're clearly not interested and aren't worth your time.

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posted July 24, 2012 08:20 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
Well, I don't just keep coming back. I will try a few times to make nice with people, but I will give up. I don't want to be seen as weird or creepy, and don't want to make people uncomfortable, so I will block, defriend, be icy, and refuse to speak to people after they treat me like they do not like me. I do the right thing and am socially appropriate by being just cold back, sometimes colder. I'm not like a stalker or anything. I'm also not a physically demonstrative person, and don't usually like hugs, so I'm not like that with her (or anybody).

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I mostly use «you» as if I am referring to you and you situation,but I mean that in general,explaining how Caps work,just it's easier for me to use this form,rather than impersonal,3rd person form
No,I didn't mean you are creepy or such,but Caps' cynical nature does find this suspicious. It could be matter of first impression,when they don't like you,or (mostly) just find it appropriate to nod their head when they meet you and not to expand on that. Caps needs to share an environment with you - need time. I see this as your Libra energy being hyped by Cancer Moon - when you are icy in return you show you are hurt,or at least they get to you,and there is no reason for that since you don't each other well,or for some time. So,getting personal (which is a pitfall of any water position) may be very off-putting. They may even look down at you because of that.
Now,if you want to share what exactly happened with that person,we can work that out,too!

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And I can't get to know them when they won't let me and are rude to me. I mean, how can you get to know someone like that? You can't. You can't get to know people when they act like I've described.

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As a Libra Asc,I completely sympathize But,rudeness didn't kill anyone And,you can get to know people like that,with time or second chances!Do you by rude also note them being mean? Really mean? That's different story then,those people are not worth your time,regardless of Moon Sign.

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I honestly feel confused by your last response because it seems like you're saying that people prefer that I avoid them and stay away from them, but that they'll supposedly not act like that if I get to know them, but I can't get to know people if they don't want me around and I have to avoid them.

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As I said,was talking in general terms
If you had a run in with Cap Moon,but feel that connection/relation could be rewarding and don't want to leave it at that the best way is not to pursue it,just let it happen. This could be also experiences of my H11 Sun,but friendships,or rather the beginnings,just happen. Very subtle,natural,things just click. Caps appreciate the natural = unassuming,not forced,real = genuine. And in that,sentiments are given,felt,but not really discussed.

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I hate to keep asking for clarity, but could you maybe explain that in a different way, if that's not what you mean?

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I don't mind,I like questions,just I am a terse poster,it's the damned typing,I will never get used to it «keep it short» always goes inside my mind!

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I'm having a hard time sorting that out--which is on me, not you. You're not doing a bad job explaining; I just feel lost and confused.

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posted July 24, 2012 09:01 AM            

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Originally posted by VenusDiSirius:

I see this as your Libra energy being hyped by Cancer Moon - when you are icy in return you show you are hurt,or at least they get to you,and there is no reason for that since you don't each other well,or for some time. So,getting personal (which is a pitfall of any water position) may be very off-putting. They may even look down at you because of that.

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See, that's what frustrates me. Why should people look down on people for being emotional and expressive? I get annoyed, because people say all the time how they'd rather you be honest and come to them/say it to their face if there's a problem, but when you do, they either get mad or some other form of upset. But if you vent about it to someone and it gets back to them, they get annoyed by that too. It's like I'm screwed no matter what. That's frustrating.

Then again, I look down on icicles, stiff upper lips, and heartless robots, so I am being a bit hypocritical here.

quote:

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Originally posted by VenusDiSirius:

And,you can get to know people like that,with time or second chances!

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Well, I don't really feel that way. I have this problem with more than one person in my life. I have no idea how to treat them except to be as cold, avoidant, distant, and as standoffish as possible because it seems like that's what they want. Ugh. It's hopeless.

Then again, if people really liked me, they'd act like it. It makes me mad that it bugs me so much, but I really hate it when people treat me that way. Venting here helps ease some of that aggravation.

My own sun and Mercury are in the 11th house (friendship), which is Libra. My MC is also Libra, as is my SN (I use whole signs). So, connection, socializing, and communication are extremely important to me.

posted July 24, 2012 09:10 AM            

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Originally posted by VenusDiSirius:
Took me ages to post this,had to remove smilies,but I can't seem to edit it properly either,so there are a few typing mistakes,omissions.
Oh,Randall,when are you going to bless us with preview option???

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posted July 24, 2012 12:35 PM            

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Originally posted by RunAroundScreaming:
huh. why would she hold ur hand?

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I c an see where you're going with this, and while I am bi, I'm certainly not attracted to her. She's my close cousin! I hold hands with people I love. A few of my close friends, guys and girls.

posted July 24, 2012 01:23 PM            

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Originally posted by thisisaquarius:
I c an see where you're going with this, and while I am bi, I'm certainly not attracted to her. She's my close cousin! I hold hands with people I love. A few of my close friends, guys and girls.

Doesn't anyone else...? Do y'all reserve hand-holding for when you're interested in a person physically or romantically? That seems rather depressing.

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Haha at the 'rather depressing'

posted July 24, 2012 01:44 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
See, that's what frustrates me. Why should people look
down on people for being emotional and expressive? I get
annoyed, because people say all the time how they'd
rather you be honest and come to them/say it to their face
if there's a problem, but when you do, they either get mad
or some other form of upset. But if you vent about it to
someone and it gets back to them, they get annoyed by
that too. It's like I'm screwed no matter what. That's
frustrating.
Then again, I look down on icicles, stiff upper lips, and
heartless robots, so I am being a bit hypocritical here.

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There! We all have our quirks
You are not looked down on because of your emo/expressive nature,but because you suppose the intimacy between the two when you feel free to act that way - you are imposing a sentiment,being close,and you can't push Cap Moon. Again,in general,since I don't know you situation complety,but it may be that there are more to your synastry with them.

quote:

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Well, I don't really feel that way. I have this problem with
more than one person in my life. I have no idea how to
treat them except to be as cold, avoidant, distant, and as
standoffish as possible because it seems like that's what
they want. Ugh. It's hopeless.
Then again, if people really liked me, they'd act like it. It
makes me mad that it bugs me so much, but I really hate
it when people treat me that way. Venting here helps ease
some of that aggravation.
My own sun and Mercury are in the 11th house
(friendship), which is Libra. My MC is also Libra, as is my
SN (I use whole signs). So, connection, socializing, and
communication are extremely important to me.

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I see. But,if you pass the cold treatment you will be awarded with exclusivity,once they find you as a friend,you will like a two-legged altar to them They can appreciate you,and you can mean the world to them. I think that your Scorp Ven/Pluto woulf find this so alluring and satisfying - the sentiment just you two share; Cap Moons are distrustful of widely distributed emotions because if you are the same with everybody,how can friendship with be special/mean something?(!) It is about quality and selectivity.

Your SN is in H11? Don't focus on SN. Go to NN. Hard,but you gotta do it. Anyways,having a strong house often goes hand in hand with obsession,so I understand what it is so bugging that this bugs you so much

posted July 24, 2012 09:50 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by VenusDiSirius:
I see. But,if you pass the cold treatment you will be awarded with exclusivity,once they find you as a friend,you will like a two-legged altar to them They can appreciate you,and you can mean the world to them. I think that your Scorp Ven/Pluto woulf find this so alluring and satisfying - the sentiment just you two share; Cap Moons are distrustful of widely distributed emotions because if you are the same with everybody,how can friendship with be special/mean something?(!) It is about quality and selectivity.

Your SN is in H11? Don't focus on SN. Go to NN. Hard,but you gotta do it. Anyways,having a strong house often goes hand in hand with obsession,so I understand what it is so bugging that this bugs you so much

*now,off to see can I edit my previous post #VirgoMerc

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Yeah, I do have a strong 11th house.

It's too bad that things with the Cap moons in my life can't and won't be worked out, but I do feel that by talking it out here, at least I'm understanding it a bit and it's making more sense.

posted July 25, 2012 09:07 AM            

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Originally posted by VenusDiSirius:
Sure,dearie

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speaking of 'dearie', did you see what I posted for you on the OUAT forum?

posted July 25, 2012 09:49 AM            

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Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
speaking of 'dearie', did you see what I posted for you on the OUAT forum?

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