posted March 16, 2013 06:13 PM            

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Originally posted by 4lifephrases:
Just out of curiosity Pixie Jane:

When someone gives forgiveness is one thing but taking forgiveness is another.

How many times even if you have been forgiven and they have said it, maybe you have judged or thought back by "oh ! you are Scorpio. You are not one of the person who easily forgives and forget, so you are not going to ever forgive me?"

I don't think it has only got to do with just other people forgiving someone but also personally has someone forgiven themselves is big thing.

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It's only happened once, and at the time I took her word for it, but she kept bringing it back up as well as giving me impossible conditions to live up to and if I did then that was turned around against me as well. She did that to others as well. And yet she was bitter about not having any real friends.

IOW, I believe experienced has shaped my view, not that view has shaped my experience.

There was one particularly evolved Scorpio, I'd rather call her an Eagle, whom I got off on the wrong foot with and yet we became close after that and I accepted that just fine. She recognized we'd simply misunderstood each other and let it go, so presumably I could "take forgiveness" again.

posted March 16, 2013 08:08 PM            

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Originally posted by Doux Rêve:
Fire Moons ususally forgive quite easily unless really afflicted/highly Plutonian.

Earth signs are the ones who can keep grudges for-everrrr (especially Taurus, omg).

Not sure about Air signs.. I've known quite a few unforgiving Geminis.. they can hold a grudge.

Water signs, it depends. I think some can find it hard to forgive but they usually don't -like- to hold grudges. It's like they want to forgive but it's difficult for them (especially Scorpio).

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Yes, I agree so much with Scorpios having difficulty in forgiving and Geminis holding a grudge! (Scorp sun, Gemini asc)

I don't really like holding grudges but also don't easily forgive and forget if it's a major issue. It takes a lot of time for me to be able to fully heal the wounds that were inflicted and I can't fully forgive if I can't let it go.

posted March 17, 2013 02:55 AM            

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Originally posted by Doux Rêve:
Isn't forgiveness related to someone's level of.. "evolution"? Spiritual people forgive and let go, for example (or at least try to). I think Jupiter and Neptune are helpful when dealing with forgiveness. Whereas Saturn and Pluto make it difficult to let go of past hurt.

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No I disagree with that... Forgiveness and letting go ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS. Sometimes the best way to let something go/move on and evolve is to acknowledge the fact that there is no forgiveness for what the other person has done.

The problem with Forgiveness is that despite our dictionaries people have different definitions for that word. A lot of people use the word forgiveness when they REALLY mean letting something go and accepting it... they think they are both one and the same and they are not. You can forgive someone and NOT let go/accept/evolve.... you can let go/accept/evolve without forgiving.

posted March 17, 2013 03:56 AM            

For me, my father and my own spirituality have made the biggest impact on my sense of forgiveness... I think in my younger years I was too obstinate to forgive anyone of even minor misdeeds.

I think that I was being very petty at the time.

Would not want to go back.

If I ever "feel" I cannot forgive someone - I would look at things spiritually, philosophically, and place objective reasoning before subjective... (remember there are things that I may not deserve forgiveness for myself...) and, thinking about my own spiritual beliefs, and the nature of humanity, of animals... the heaviness is lifted and resolution comes naturally. ~this is just me... And, I do view things differently it would seem - from some here --- acceptance is often a part of forgiveness. Such as... accepting the things we cannot change (what's done is done), it's a process for many... and this is often step one.

Can I be unforgiving... yes. Can I be tolerant... sure... but, for me... I will always /want/ to forgive, even if it seems difficult or inappropriate at the time. Not only can I not hold a grudge, I also find those negative feelings (that one who doesn't forgive holds onto) exhausting, draining,and toxic.

triple Earth (Cap-Tau-Vir)

Moon in Taurus 9h (opposition Saturn)
Mars in Scorpio 3h (conjunction Pluto)
(reserving judgement is always best imho...)
Jupiter 4h Sagittarius (conjunction Neptune and chart ruler Mercury) - Merc-Jupiter dominant

~Forgiveness is also easier when you remove yourself from the equation/formula, when you are calm-minded, clear~minded~ rational...

that said,we're all human - free will.

(no, I'm not speaking of Christian-forgiveness when I speak of spiritual beliefs either. just need to make that clear.) -

~ forgiveness itself is a socio-personal matter and often a religious matter or ideal as well.

--- astro...
If I were to look astrologically - I would look to the Moon to represent our emotional response to a wrong/hurt - emotional reasoning/sensitivity - fragility...

- I would look at Mars to show our response to wrong/hurt - as well as our chart rulers/1st houses.

And consider Venus/Libran 7h, as well as Jupiter's station/Sagittarian, 9h. (strengths, aspects, placements)

Because judgement/law - is related to these two signs historically.

(Mercury would be something like... litigation... and reasoning as well, but not everyone is -reasonable- or wired for dealing conflicts the same... - so I wouldn't consider him as strong/necessary (entirely) as the former planets unless he is the chart ruler or ruler of those houses).

That's just my 2 bits. *backtotheshadowycornersofLL*

posted March 18, 2013 05:45 PM            

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Originally posted by Mandy pie:

No I disagree with that... Forgiveness and letting go ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS. Sometimes the best way to let something go/move on and evolve is to acknowledge the fact that there is no forgiveness for what the other person has done.

The problem with Forgiveness is that despite our dictionaries people have different definitions for that word. A lot of people use the word forgiveness when they REALLY mean letting something go and accepting it... they think they are both one and the same and they are not. You can forgive someone and NOT let go/accept/evolve.... you can let go/accept/evolve without forgiving.

Anyone who has grown up in an abusive family environment (and is old enough to look back with perspective) knows that one of the FAVORITE things for abusers to do is to try to get you to "forgive" and "move on". The reason is because they figure this way they can have their cake and eat it too... they can abuse you when you're young then when they no longer have legal say over you, they can get you to forgive them for everything and still get you to pay for their retirement or whatever else they may want from you. And if you don't do this??? Well then YOU'RE not evolved...says the abuser. YOU are the problem for not getting over my beating/molesting/drug use or whatever else they might have done in that particular family. Abusive partners often do the same thing to their spouses. If you didn't grow up in this environment it's unlikely you understand how abusers use "forgiveness" to get their way and to help them excuse their behavior. Forgiveness doesn't matter... You can't help whether or not you forgive someone. You either do or you don't. People who think they can choose are kidding themselves. I see parents on tv who 'claim' to have forgiven the person who murdered their child and while they say this you can hear the extreme anger/torment in their voices... Obviously with strong emotions like that they didn't actually forgive did they? They're just kidding themselves... and by doing so they're guaranteeing that they don't move on because once you deny how you really feel about something you end up fighting those emotions which only intensifies them. Compare this to someone who says calmly and matter of factly... "you know what? I don't forgive that person. That person is an a-hole and that's all there is to it" It's much easier to move on and evolve with the second attitude than the first.

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posted March 18, 2013 05:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
It's only happened once, and at the time I took her word for it, but she kept bringing it back up as well as giving me impossible conditions to live up to and if I did then that was turned around against me as well. She did that to others as well. And yet she was bitter about not having any real friends.

IOW, I believe experienced has shaped my view, not that view has shaped my experience.

There was one particularly evolved Scorpio, I'd rather call her an Eagle, whom I got off on the wrong foot with and yet we became close after that and I accepted that just fine. She recognized we'd simply misunderstood each other and let it go, so presumably I could "take forgiveness" again.

And I also speak in generalities, that is "the way to bet." I know there's always an exception to the rule somewhere.

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Thank you for sharing your experience.

As mentioned earlier, some people wouldn't give you forgiveness and at the end of the day it is their prerogative. You can not force someone to give forgiveness or make them feel bad that they should. It is just manipulative.

posted March 18, 2013 07:50 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Doux Rêve:
Fire Moons usually forgive quite easily unless really afflicted/highly Plutonian.

Earth signs are the ones who can keep grudges for-everrrr (especially Taurus, omg).

Not sure about Air signs.. I've known quite a few unforgiving Geminis.. they can hold a grudge.

Water signs, it depends. I think some can find it hard to forgive but they usually don't -like- to hold grudges. It's like they want to forgive but it's difficult for them (especially Scorpio).

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ditto on this. taurus and capricorn could hold a grduge match that would outlast an ice age.

posted March 19, 2013 10:36 AM            

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Originally posted by Lunae:
Yes, I agree so much with Scorpios having difficulty in forgiving and Geminis holding a grudge! (Scorp sun, Gemini asc)

I don't really like holding grudges but also don't easily forgive and forget if it's a major issue. It takes a lot of time for me to be able to fully heal the wounds that were inflicted and I can't fully forgive if I can't let it go.

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posted March 19, 2013 05:08 PM            

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Originally posted by 4lifephrases:
Thank you for sharing your experience.

As mentioned earlier, some people wouldn't give you forgiveness and at the end of the day it is their prerogative. You can not force someone to give forgiveness or make them feel bad that they should. It is just manipulative.

Read Mandy Pie post. She says it all.

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posted March 19, 2013 10:05 PM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
I agree with Mandy Pie. However, that had little to nothing to do with my sitch, so it doesn't "say it all" in my case. It's actually a horrific, dysfunctional sitch (but not one of abuse and more of a disagreement about someone she was seeing, but it's really scary) that I was referring to, and forgiveness was something I gave but something she was unable to, and she even admitted once (before going amnesiac again) that her Scorpio made her hold grudges which she correctly felt were destroying her, and tried everything from prayers to magic to let go and stop seething (sometimes over the littlest things), but it wouldn't work. She literally held grudges as far back as when she was in diapers to the point she could start showing signs of rage about it (and she was approaching retirement then). She was also pretty delusional, often absurdly exaggerating the bad and forgetting the good, too, until there was only the smallest link to reality left at all. (ETA: conversely, she would put up with those who abused her in some situations, and I don't know why! My pointing out how she was being abused, perhaps even worse than abused, was pretty much the beginning of the end for us.)

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Hi Pixie,

I am getting more picture on her but I really think that some people don't want to know who bad people are and who are not.At the end of the day we get along with only certain kind of people or want to be with them around. We
are all afraid of drastic change and especially fixed signs,agreed! Sometimes people want to remain delusional and you can only point out but I am sure there might be reasons for those relationship. I would tell you that Scorpions if they know they are in bad relationship they will be trying to get away from it.

At the end of the day if she says she has a problem that is half work done. I do not understand why are you so concerned about it? I guess you did your part and that's all you could do. Do not beat yourself up.I guess you need to move on too and stop spoiling Scorpio rep.

I am sorry but at times some people get too much concerned and bitchy about when someone doesn't forgive someone then they try to feel better by saying "She would die bitter or wouldn't have friends" It is just defense mechanism for them not to feel guilty. Nobody dies bitter by knowing whom they don't like. Sometimes we do not get along with people. We do not have to have good relationship with everyone. Some relationship are for short periods and some for very long. Our society spends awful time reminding us that all relationship are perfect but we all have tried so hard and some sometime slip away.

I agree some people would have difficulty to be more mature and change their emotions. They are an adult and they are well aware what is good or bad for their mental health.
You shouldn't be worried about that. It isn't helping you either.

People can only give what they can. Rest is up to you.I don't think she can give anymore.

Assuming on whatever you have said on this forum and as a Scorpio point of view is that she opened up and told you a secret, she opened her heart, you pointed out everything wrong with her. She probably knows what her problem is? but it might have hurt her ego.
I have found that most people do not empathize or sympathize with Scorpions easily, just because of cool and calm exterior they have. Do not make them look weak or pity them though. Sometimes it just helps to listen and be there.

Scorpions are capable of change and they can do it from inside but ofcourse they do it in their own sweet time and they do learn the lesson.Hopefully she wouldn't die bitter.

posted March 20, 2013 12:07 AM            

I just shared my observation, not making a big deal out of it. The one concerned about it is you. (However, she experienced such a radical shift in personality that it frightened me, and having learned of a handful of others who became "pod people" for want of a better word I did give my BFF written permission to kidnap and deprogram me if I should ever do the same thing, though my BFF thinks it's impossible and made some observations about all those who radically changed so quickly to please an abuser that I'm optimistic she's right.)

She lost all her old friends (or they at least became distant), and to my knowledge she hasn't made any new ones (not that I've asked about her in a couple of years). Of course her abusive lover didn't like her friends anyway so it was probably inevitable, but her radical shifts like someone from an opposite universe surely didn't help, and when anyone so much as brought up a concern she flew off the handle and became extremely defensive, sometimes seeing offense where none was meant. Of course whether she alienated friends or they just jumped away from whom she'd become she hated us all, and expressed bitterness to those who remained around her, or at least did until I accepted the old her was dead and someone new in her place and cut the stranger she'd become completely out of my life.

posted March 20, 2013 10:06 AM            

Yes, I think you have full right to observe the world and judge it.I can say anyone can bash a sign if they want to. As Humans we like to judge things and observe things to make sense of things.Astrology and Science wouldn't have existed without them.

Even if you think Scorpions are slow to forgive or they do not. Maybe you realized at least they are honest about it, rather then pretending. Question is what would you rather have false forgiveness or real emotions? At least a Scorpio would die know that they were true to themselves.

I just wanted to give you hope that if you reassure them enough they would be willing to see changes and it happens with lots of patience in my experience. Just sharing!

I understand you might/might not be concerned about her. You are really going to hate me but you too are totally trying to control her and judge her as well. She would wake up to this abusive behavior if it is one. Why wouldn't you let her decide that for herself? She is following her intuition and it is only Scorpions go through dark waters and come out clean.

Maybe she doesn't see it your way and that might be the problem for your relationship. I do not see that she hasn't evolved, when someone looses their old friends doesn't mean that they have lost it or they have gone mad. They are trying something new in their life and they would rather have some support. Smoother the transition,the better.

You just said she changed drastically. Scorpions I know are always evolving.
As a true friend you have realized that she has changed and not hoping to see old her is the way to go.

It would help you to be there without judgement and when she would realize she is in bad abusive relationship, you would stand there not with " I told you so " but with gentleness, kindness and comfort because that's what she might need. We all are allowed to make mistakes and grow. In our world too often we are condemned for making mistakes, experimenting, trying new or doing different.