posted January 30, 2014 03:11 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Eyesofmystery:
It seems to me that modern astrologers are just doing as they wish with an ancient knowledge. When I do my chart it says I am a Plutonian because my rising sign is Scorpio and it's very aspected etc. But what I don't understand is...

Why the change from Mars to Pluto for Scorpio? I don't think it suits really. The way I see it is that the signs are elemental. And when a planet affects the sign it affects the element of the sign. So when Mars affects Aries, a fire sign, then yes the effect is a physical and go getting one. Then when it affects a water sign, those affects are emotional not physical. I don't see the need for Pluto. To me...

Lust, Sex, Jealousy, Possessiveness, re all incredibly Martian properties that evidence to me the true rulership of Scorpio by Mars.

So why the need to dismantle the knowledge of the ancients by just going on a hunch about Pluto?

Rant rant

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I actually agree with you.

Mars is representative of competitive energy drive and impulsiveness. But Mars is also the sign of surgeons, researchers and people who have to "dig deep". That requires energy too.

In being more "Arien", Mars aspecting the Sun by conjunction/square or opposition has this effect. In this instance, Mars affects the self ;"Sun".

In being more calculating, restrained and unyielding. Mars aspecting Saturn by opposition, square or conjunction can have this effect. The energy supply can seem relentless.

posted January 30, 2014 04:53 AM            

one reason i like to think is pluto-ruled, is because i read on here that one way of identifying the asc's presence is during moments of stress, when we retreat into it's nature. during stressful moments i most definitely like to be hidden, secretive, covert and i also become watchful & have to deal with vengeful urges. now, that could be aspects to the planet but because it is a particular response to stress i've come to believe it's pluto at work acting through the asc

posted January 30, 2014 01:42 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by deepseablues:
I don't think there is anything to "buy" into.

I am a Scorpio and I do not feel connected to Mars in a Scorpionic way, way too fiery and energetic.

Scorpio is the death sign of the zodiac, the only sign with three symbols, scorpio, eagle and phoenix. We can be considered either a saint or devil or flip between the two but never both at the same time. Scorpio represents the highest of the high or the lowest of the low, all or nothing, which is very much in connection with the Pluto/Minerva, Pluto being a double planet (Pluto and Minerva were twins), Pluto representing the lowest, darkest side of humanity, Minerva the brightest, highest wisdom.
Keywords for Pluto are:
Positive:
Consecration, [b]Rebirth, Transformation, Construction, Free Flowingness, Submission, Transmutation, Wisdom, Illumination, Light, Heaven, Willingness, Grace, Integration
Negative:
Desecration, Death, Annihilation, Tribulation, Intensity , Submersion, Instinctive Force, Struggle, Obsession, Darkness, Hell, Wilfulness, Karma, Disintegration
All of which tie into Scorpionic themes more than Martian, also they tie into the transformation, rebirth aspect of Scorpio, plus the water side.
Some quotes for Scorpio:
"the hidden, stagnant marsh waters that must be cleansed by the free flowing waters of life." (transmutation, rebirth, illumination)
And a poem for Scorpio:
The high soul seeks the high way,
The low soul seek the low,
And in between on the misty flats
The rest drift to and fro

There are no Scorpios on the misty flats.
Regeneration is a key theme of Scorpio, represented better by Pluto than Mars.
Also, Pluto rules the underworld, hidden things, the depths/bowels, purging, garbage/trash; Scorpio represents the generative systems and bowels/rectum in the physical body as well as the genitals.
Scorpios aren't afraid to get dirty.

"Scorpio, sign of the death of the personality and the birth of the soul. Every seed must be buried in the darkness of the earth before it can break out of its shell and come up into light. All growth must begin its life in the dark. Every seed, even a human seed, needs that darkness before it is ready to reach toward the light. Pluto represents that life in dark. Minerva represents the light that is reached when the life force in the seed breaks its shell and pushes through the earth and grows towards the light."
This much better represents the struggle between dark and light that Scorpios undertake, the transmutation, regeneration than the planet Mars does. I personally don't see any fire in Scorpio, so how could it be represented by a fire planet? Pluto is a misunderstood planet, Scorpios are often misunderstood.

Jupiter to me is a fiery, bold, expansive, planet much more Sagittarian than Piscean.
Neptune is a watery, foggy, illusive planet, that better represents the two fish/oceanic theme of Pisces. Some people call Pisces the "dustpan of the zodiac." They have a little of all the signs in them, being the last of the 12 signs, not totally sure of who they are as they feel a bit of a connection with everyone/sign. To me this theme goes with the theme of Neptune with its Universal Love, sacrifice, understanding, illusion/delusion, psychicness... Because Pisces are so psychically sensitive they can turn to drugs/alcohol as an escape. Pisces is compassionate, musical; other Neptunian themes.

Just one opinion.[/B]

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posted January 30, 2014 01:51 PM            

Also, Scorpio is related to transformation, the unconscious, the soul, death and rebirth, the underworld, power and obsession, sex and deeper intimacy as well as unconscious dynamics of a relationship, inheritance (material or non material), going through darkness... which are related to Pluto and not Mars. Mars is direct, aggressive, assertive, but not any of these deeper matters.

posted January 30, 2014 06:42 PM            

I think it's fair to say it's split. I think it's pretty sad so many people are disregarding the ancient works and all these years of observation on a hunch. But I guess some people see astrology as a science of nature. And others as a para-physical plaything that they can do as they please with on grounds of belief.

My only worry is that we become the generation to put the final nail in the coffin of astrology by leading people away from the truth. We have already practically forgotten 'fixed stars' and the constellations. Now we seem to be doing away with the rulership and teaching people 'new' knowledge on hunches.

posted January 30, 2014 06:53 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AriesLilith:
As someone else pointed out, Pluto is the higher octave of Mars.

Also, Scorpio is related to transformation, the unconscious, the soul, death and rebirth, the underworld, power and obsession, sex and deeper intimacy as well as unconscious dynamics of a relationship, inheritance (material or non material), going through darkness... which are related to Pluto and not Mars. Mars is direct, aggressive, assertive, but not any of these deeper matters.

With Mars there's no transformation of the soul, only affirmation of one's being. It's about physical and impulses, and not what's deeper intimacy and unconscious dynamics between two people. Mars is assertive and aggressive, but direct and not with power plays and behind the scenes thing.

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With all due respect you once again seem to be stating that "Mars is Aries". No, Aries is Aries. A fire sign affected by Mars. Of course a fire sign will be direct, aggressive, bold, when affected by Mars. A water sign will be the same but emotionally so. Which is why Scorpio is jealous, sexual, lusty etc. It's the same thing manifesting through a different element. Scorpio is water. Aries is Fire. One is emotional and the other is physical. To understand Mars only through the physical for a water sign is wrong.

posted January 30, 2014 07:09 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Eyesofmystery:
Great thread guys.

I think it's fair to say it's split. I think it's pretty sad so many people are disregarding the ancient works and all these years of observation on a hunch. But I guess some people see astrology as a science of nature. And others as a para-physical plaything that they can do as they please with on grounds of belief.

My only worry is that we become the generation to put the final nail in the coffin of astrology by leading people away from the truth. We have already practically forgotten 'fixed stars' and the constellations. Now we seem to be doing away with the rulership and teaching people 'new' knowledge on hunches.

Mars!!!!

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posted January 30, 2014 07:16 PM            

...Come on.

posted January 30, 2014 11:31 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by anonymidarkness:
War may be Martian(Aries) but the transformation it brings is Plutonian(Scorpio). And I really doubt that Pluto was chosen as a ruler of Scorpio based on a hunch, where did you read it ? source ?

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It is based on a domino stream of hunches.

posted January 31, 2014 06:56 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Eyesofmystery:
With all due respect you once again seem to be stating that "Mars is Aries". No, Aries is Aries. A fire sign affected by Mars. Of course a fire sign will be direct, aggressive, bold, when affected by Mars. A water sign will be the same but emotionally so. Which is why Scorpio is jealous, sexual, lusty etc. It's the same thing manifesting through a different element. Scorpio is water. Aries is Fire. One is emotional and the other is physical. To understand Mars only through the physical for a water sign is wrong.

Mars is the ancient god of war.
War is the main source of change on earth.
From the changing of nations, people, cultures. To the progression of desire for humanitarianism and the transmutation of global consciousness. War is ALWAYS the vessel for social upheaval that you want to deny has anything to do with Mars.

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"Once again"? This is the first time I'm posting my opinion in this thread.

With that logic, we can relate all planets to every sign since there will always be an emotional part, a logical part, a values part, an aggressive part, and so on to all signs. Why not associate emotional Moon or serious Saturn to Scorpio as well?

Mars is Mars, even if we see the emotional side of it, there is still not enough depth from it that describes the depths of Scorpio.

Scorpio's jealousy can run pretty deep, stemming from inner/unconscious issues that translates to power and manipulation, even indirectly.

Also, we can associate war with transformation, as well as emotions or beliefs. With that logic, we might bring Moon and Jupiter into picture as well. Also, war is about planning, discipline too, so we might as well bring Saturn into picture.

We can bridge many associations, but each archtype is what it is. There's no depth to Mars as to Pluto that can be associated with Scorpio's depth. That is why Pluto is the higher octave of Mars anyways.

And with all due respect, you seem to be passive aggressive with what you can't agree, claimimg that you are the one who is right and others who disagrees as people who strays from the truth and are only playing with astrology. Specially in this post:

quote:

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Originally posted by Eyesofmystery:
Great thread guys.
I think it's fair to say it's split. I think it's pretty sad so many people are disregarding the ancient works and all these years of observation on a hunch. But I guess some people see astrology as a science of nature. And others as a para-physical plaything that they can do as they please with on grounds of belief.

My only worry is that we become the generation to put the final nail in the coffin of astrology by leading people away from the truth. We have already practically forgotten 'fixed stars' and the constellations. Now we seem to be doing away with the rulership and teaching people 'new' knowledge on hunches.

Mars!!!!

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You can convince yourself that your own beliefs are the right ones, but without saying anything that truly makes sense to others, you are not really going to convince others, and certainly not by claiming that others are wrong that you can change their ideas. And in case you might be wondering "what about you guys", we haven't been forcing you to agree either, just stating our ideas and why we disagree with you, without attacking you the same way with accusations of playing with astrology instead of being serious.

posted January 31, 2014 08:30 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AriesLilith:
You can convince yourself that your own beliefs are the right ones, but without saying anything that truly makes sense to others, you are not really going to convince others, and certainly not by claiming that others are wrong that you can change their ideas. And in case you might be wondering "what about you guys", we haven't been forcing you to agree either, just stating our ideas and why we disagree with you, without attacking you the same way with accusations of playing with astrology instead of being serious.

In other words, it would be better if you can argue with more interesting explanations of why you are assuming that Mars is the right ruler of Scorpio and Pluto is not, instead of arguments like "you are wrong and not serious about astrology and I am the holder of truth".

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with all due respect, I do not need to argue a case for respecting the ancient knowledge of astrology. You need to arguer a case for changing it on a whim.

posted January 31, 2014 09:30 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Eyesofmystery:

with all due respect, I do not need to argue a case for respecting the ancient knowledge of astrology. You need to arguer a case for changing it on a whim.

...

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Tell that to the western astrology communities that largely uses Pluto as ruler of Scorpio. They must all do that out of a whim, maybe there's even a conspiration and hate towards Mars.

It is fine if you want to stick with traditional astrology instead of modern astrology's rulers, or even the methods. There are trasitional astrologers and modern astrologers that shares different ideas and philosophies. It's even fine if you want to debate about each astrology method and philosophies, since that's what forums are for.

Thought it seems that when presented arguments as to why we don't agree with your assumptions of Mars being the right ruler of Scorpio, all you can respond to these elaborated replies is either that you are the right one and others are not even serious, or that it is just a whim.

posted January 31, 2014 12:49 PM            

I'm not attacking you or demeaning you.

posted January 31, 2014 01:55 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Eyesofmystery:
You tell me to engage yet overlook the fact that you haven't made a single point other than that there are lots of people who buy into Pluto.

I'm not attacking you or demeaning you.

Simply stating that nobody has shown me any reason behind it. Which is all that i asked.

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You are assuming that everyone who buys into Pluto is not being serious, just doing it out of the whim and so on. What I quoted from you before is very clear of how you are attacking people who don't agree with you.

Everyone made lots of points, just coz they are not points you'd like to agree or makes sense to you doesn't mean that they are not points. We have been explaining why Pluto fits Scorpio much more, how Mars doesn't have enough depth compared to Pluto, how Pluto is the higher octave of Mars, how Pluto was only discovered in the last century and so on. You can either A) disagree with it, as you are free to, B) present counter arguments in a logical, relevant way, or C) continue with "you guys are not serious and assuming this out of a whim and I'm the holder of the truth" kind of counter argument.

posted January 31, 2014 03:21 PM            

With Mars, I think it's what makes Scorpio the most aggressive and tough water sign (well, it's traditionally considered the toughest). Mars, expressed through Scorpio, is sort of like a much more sensitive and reserved version of Aries. I've always wondered why I like Moon in Aries people so much and it's the Mars connection between them and my Moon in Scorpio. It's fire and courage and sexuality and passion, yet grounded in the watery themes of introspection, depth, reflection, and emotion.

The Pluto side makes sense because that's where the perceptiveness and need to dive into the darkness to find gold comes in. Because, I actually don't think Mars is responsible for that as much. Even if some say Mars expressed through Scorpio creates "internal battles", I don't think that it's what compels Scorpio to go to the underworld. Mars isn't about that. That's what Pluto represents; all that dark, intense, scary stuff that, when confronted, ends up making you a stronger person.

I can still see, though, ways in which Mars and Pluto overlap. I think Scorpio is just way too complex of a sign to try and easily sum up. I think that's why people didn't really begin understanding it until they assigned two rulers to it. I think the same can be said of Pisces (Jupiter and Neptune).

I think you could also say that Scorpio people who are more extroverted are more Martian in temperament: very passionate, intense, committed, focused, displaying that passion a bit more directly and using their power more directly. And I think more introverted Scorpio people are more Plutonian: always keeping their passions, thoughts, feelings controlled and hidden, remaining more remote and mysterious. That's another way to think of it.