posted January 29, 2014 02:20 PM            

Why the change from Mars to Pluto for Scorpio? I don't think it suits really. The way I see it is that the signs are elemental. And when a planet affects the sign it affects the element of the sign. So when Mars affects Aries, a fire sign, then yes the effect is a physical and go getting one. Then when it affects a water sign, those affects are emotional not physical. I don't see the need for Pluto. To me...

Lust, Sex, Jealousy, Possessiveness, re all incredibly Martian properties that evidence to me the true rulership of Scorpio by Mars.

So why the need to dismantle the knowledge of the ancients by just going on a hunch about Pluto?

posted January 29, 2014 04:05 PM            

I can see how Scorpio is Martian in some ways. But there's more to it than that, just like there's more to Pisces than Jupiter and more to Aquarius than Saturn.

I wonder if it has to do with the evolution of humanity/society:

Jupiter -> Neptune: from a religious position to a spiritual one
Saturn -> Uranus: from a rigid/structured position to a more free/chaotic position
Mars -> Pluto: from a direct, aggressive position to a subversive, indirect position

posted January 29, 2014 04:40 PM            

Cancer - Water - Moon - is mothering, Feeling, Sympathetic, Intuitive.

That to me works.

Then we take

Pisces - Water - Jupiter

Is water like Cancer in the way it feels, but is actually very outgoing, and hard to pin down. Can be the life and soul of the party and make great artists very expansive in the way that they feel. Very open to feeling, unlike Scorpio and Cancer who wear shells.

Scorpio - Water - Mars

Lusty, sexual, passionate, prone to jealousy, fantasist, obsession, psychically gifted.

posted January 29, 2014 05:31 PM            

I am a Scorpio and I do not feel connected to Mars in a Scorpionic way, way too fiery and energetic.

Scorpio is the death sign of the zodiac, the only sign with three symbols, scorpio, eagle and phoenix. We can be considered either a saint or devil or flip between the two but never both at the same time. Scorpio represents the highest of the high or the lowest of the low, all or nothing, which is very much in connection with the Pluto/Minerva, Pluto being a double planet (Pluto and Minerva were twins), Pluto representing the lowest, darkest side of humanity, Minerva the brightest, highest wisdom.
Keywords for Pluto are:
Positive:
Consecration, Rebirth, Transformation, Construction, Free Flowingness, Submission, Transmutation, Wisdom, Illumination, Light, Heaven, Willingness, Grace, Integration
Negative:
Desecration, Death, Annihilation, Tribulation, Intensity , Submersion, Instinctive Force, Struggle, Obsession, Darkness, Hell, Wilfulness, Karma, Disintegration
All of which tie into Scorpionic themes more than Martian, also they tie into the transformation, rebirth aspect of Scorpio, plus the water side.
Some quotes for Scorpio:
"the hidden, stagnant marsh waters that must be cleansed by the free flowing waters of life." (transmutation, rebirth, illumination)
And a poem for Scorpio:
The high soul seeks the high way,
The low soul seek the low,
And in between on the misty flats
The rest drift to and fro

There are no Scorpios on the misty flats.
Regeneration is a key theme of Scorpio, represented better by Pluto than Mars.
Also, Pluto rules the underworld, hidden things, the depths/bowels, purging, garbage/trash; Scorpio represents the generative systems and bowels/rectum in the physical body as well as the genitals.
Scorpios aren't afraid to get dirty.

"Scorpio, sign of the death of the personality and the birth of the soul. Every seed must be buried in the darkness of the earth before it can break out of its shell and come up into light. All growth must begin its life in the dark. Every seed, even a human seed, needs that darkness before it is ready to reach toward the light. Pluto represents that life in dark. Minerva represents the light that is reached when the life force in the seed breaks its shell and pushes through the earth and grows towards the light."
This much better represents the struggle between dark and light that Scorpios undertake, the transmutation, regeneration than the planet Mars does. I personally don't see any fire in Scorpio, so how could it be represented by a fire planet? Pluto is a misunderstood planet, Scorpios are often misunderstood.

Jupiter to me is a fiery, bold, expansive, planet much more Sagittarian than Piscean.
Neptune is a watery, foggy, illusive planet, that better represents the two fish/oceanic theme of Pisces. Some people call Pisces the "dustpan of the zodiac." They have a little of all the signs in them, being the last of the 12 signs, not totally sure of who they are as they feel a bit of a connection with everyone/sign. To me this theme goes with the theme of Neptune with its Universal Love, sacrifice, understanding, illusion/delusion, psychicness... Because Pisces are so psychically sensitive they can turn to drugs/alcohol as an escape. Pisces is compassionate, musical; other Neptunian themes.

posted January 29, 2014 06:11 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by deepseablues:
I don't think there is anything to "buy" into.

I am a Scorpio and I do not feel connected to Mars in a Scorpionic way, way too fiery and energetic.

Scorpio is the death sign of the zodiac, the only sign with three symbols, scorpio, eagle and phoenix. We can be considered either a saint or devil or flip between the two but never both at the same time. Scorpio represents the highest of the high or the lowest of the low, all or nothing, which is very much in connection with the Pluto/Minerva, Pluto being a double planet (Pluto and Minerva were twins), Pluto representing the lowest, darkest side of humanity, Minerva the brightest, highest wisdom.
Keywords for Pluto are:
Positive:
Consecration, [b]Rebirth, Transformation, Construction, Free Flowingness, Submission, Transmutation, Wisdom, Illumination, Light, Heaven, Willingness, Grace, Integration
Negative:
Desecration, Death, Annihilation, Tribulation, Intensity , Submersion, Instinctive Force, Struggle, Obsession, Darkness, Hell, Wilfulness, Karma, Disintegration
All of which tie into Scorpionic themes more than Martian, also they tie into the transformation, rebirth aspect of Scorpio, plus the water side.
Some quotes for Scorpio:
"the hidden, stagnant marsh waters that must be cleansed by the free flowing waters of life." (transmutation, rebirth, illumination)
And a poem for Scorpio:
The high soul seeks the high way,
The low soul seek the low,
And in between on the misty flats
The rest drift to and fro

There are no Scorpios on the misty flats.
Regeneration is a key theme of Scorpio, represented better by Pluto than Mars.
Also, Pluto rules the underworld, hidden things, the depths/bowels, purging, garbage/trash; Scorpio represents the generative systems and bowels/rectum in the physical body as well as the genitals.
Scorpios aren't afraid to get dirty.

"Scorpio, sign of the death of the personality and the birth of the soul. Every seed must be buried in the darkness of the earth before it can break out of its shell and come up into light. All growth must begin its life in the dark. Every seed, even a human seed, needs that darkness before it is ready to reach toward the light. Pluto represents that life in dark. Minerva represents the light that is reached when the life force in the seed breaks its shell and pushes through the earth and grows towards the light."
This much better represents the struggle between dark and light that Scorpios undertake, the transmutation, regeneration than the planet Mars does. I personally don't see any fire in Scorpio, so how could it be represented by a fire planet? Pluto is a misunderstood planet, Scorpios are often misunderstood.

Jupiter to me is a fiery, bold, expansive, planet much more Sagittarian than Piscean.
Neptune is a watery, foggy, illusive planet, that better represents the two fish/oceanic theme of Pisces. Some people call Pisces the "dustpan of the zodiac." They have a little of all the signs in them, being the last of the 12 signs, not totally sure of who they are as they feel a bit of a connection with everyone/sign. To me this theme goes with the theme of Neptune with its Universal Love, sacrifice, understanding, illusion/delusion, psychicness... Because Pisces are so psychically sensitive they can turn to drugs/alcohol as an escape. Pisces is compassionate, musical; other Neptunian themes.

Just one opinion.[/B]

---

That's just not true though is it with all due respect you seem to be throwing out ancient and well observed knowledge on a hunch that you feel. What you need to take into consideration is the elemental nature of the signs.

Why would you be expecting to be made Aries-like by Mars when you're a water sign?

A fire sign is physical and bodily. Whereas water signs are intrinsically linked to the water, the feelings. So when Mars is felt through the feelings it does not come out in the same way as it does physically, can you understand? It shows itself as emotional fieriness.

Scorpio is FAMED for this. And although you find reasons to conclude pluto affects you.
GREAT astrologers and people for THOUSANDS of years found many more reasons to consider Mars to rule Scorpio.

posted January 29, 2014 06:18 PM            

You don't feel 'energy' and 'get up and go' as a Scorpio because you experience the energy through water. The Mars energy manifests in an emotional way. So Pride, Power, Physicality becomes Lust, Sexuality, Obsession.

Also yes Scorpio is the sign of death and rebirth, reincarnation, the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. And yes there are 3 totemic symbols for the Scorpio sign.

People having a 'hunch' about pluto is not good enough to throw away thousands of years of study and observance on astrology come on? I mean, it's almost as if people have ABSOLUTELY bought into it.

posted January 29, 2014 06:28 PM            

So when we have Cancer, Scorpio, and Pisces. We do not understand the way the ruling planets affect them in the same way as they would another element. fire is fire, water is water. So when Jupiter affects Sagittarius it gives a bold, adventurous, philosophical person. But when Jupiter affects Pisces through the water element it gives you an emotionally Jovial person, a person who is bold of feeling, and Pisceans are FAMOUSLY musical, which is the absolute epitome of emotional philosophy and the expression of (in my opinion) jovial energy through an elementally water sign.

posted January 29, 2014 06:32 PM            

I am not against the concept. But to throw away the knowledge of the ancients for a hunch seems a little quick to me.

I see the fire and energy of Mars through the elementally water emotional aspects of Scorpio. In many many ways. From the lust, sexuality, to the conflict and evolution through facing crises and 'wars'. Mars is the god of war.

posted January 29, 2014 06:57 PM            

I always think of SE as a martian Scorpy.

posted January 29, 2014 06:58 PM            

Mars is the lower octave of Pluto. The emotions Lust, sexuality, obsession etc are lower emotions which would be expressed through the lower octave of Pluto, Mars. This is the cleansing of the swamp waters of the lower emotions.

Astrologers knew of the existence of Pluto before it was officially "discovered" and everything about it's discovery has come about in a Scorpionic fashion.
"Pluto was "discovered" (as it obviously existed before its discovery) on Jan 21, 1930, and on that day Pluto and Mars were in exact square. Pluto TOOK the ruler-ship away from Mars."
A battle ensued to show the world who the true ruler was and Pluto won.

Those that need physical PROOF will have to prove it to themselves, or look inside. Perhaps you should meditate on the symbol for Pluto??

posted January 29, 2014 07:00 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kerosene:
lol scorpio is ruled by both planets.
you're a prime ex of a martian influence scorp.

I always think of SE as a martian Scorpy.

Some pisces are jovial some are more neptunian.

---

I think I am trying to attain Eagledom through online debate lol. Tha makes a lot of sense actually. As Pluto is not a specified planet but is certainly large enough to have a huge affect on things. I just wish I could get some more insight.

posted January 29, 2014 07:25 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by anonymidarkness:
Do you have Mercury in Sag ?

---

posted January 29, 2014 07:36 PM            

If you can identify with Mars better than with Pluto, your own chart probably explains it.

You're trying to discredit Pluto's influence over the sign Scorpio, I don't understand why though? Just because Pluto has been discovered recently? The way I see it... Pluto is the "modern" ruler of Scorpio - it fits people who have been living in the 20th/21st centuries... I don't know how things were before Pluto was discovered, because I wasn't born yet. But to me, today, Pluto rules Scorpio and Mars co-rules it.

posted January 29, 2014 07:46 PM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eyesofmystery:
It seems to me that modern astrologers are just doing as they wish with an ancient knowledge. When I do my chart it says I am a Plutonian because my rising sign is Scorpio and it's very aspected etc. But what I don't understand is...

Why the change from Mars to Pluto for Scorpio? I don't think it suits really. The way I see it is that the signs are elemental. And when a planet affects the sign it affects the element of the sign. So when Mars affects Aries, a fire sign, then yes the effect is a physical and go getting one. Then when it affects a water sign, those affects are emotional not physical. I don't see the need for Pluto. To me...

Lust, Sex, Jealousy, Possessiveness, re all incredibly Martian properties that evidence to me the true rulership of Scorpio by Mars.

So why the need to dismantle the knowledge of the ancients by just going on a hunch about Pluto?

Rant rant

---

You don't have to agree with it, frankly. Plenty of astrologers do think Mars rules Pluto, you aren't the first to say something like this, so what's your point?

I feel like you're trying to see if people will get on their knees and beg you and try to prove to you that Pluto rules Scorpio like "PROVE TO ME YOUR WAY IS RIGHT", like you have that kind of power, or like people particularly care about whether or not you agree with them.

posted January 29, 2014 08:17 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by IMoppedtheFloor:
You don't have to agree with it, frankly. Plenty of astrologers do think Mars rules Pluto, you aren't the first to say something like this, so what's your point?

I feel like you're trying to see if people will get on their knees and beg you and try to prove to you that Pluto rules Scorpio like "PROVE TO ME YOUR WAY IS RIGHT", like you have that kind of power, or like people particularly care about whether or not you agree with them.

You don't agree, so what. Just think what you want, and those of us who think Pluto does rule Scorpio will think what we want and then there's no problem and we don't really have to justify it to you or anyone else.

---

posted January 29, 2014 09:07 PM            

Pluto IMO gives off a very strong, definitive vibe. You know, All that death and transformation. I have pluto in 7th so I pick up its energy in people very quickly. To think in both pluto and mars term makes me assess people ore easily because I can categorize. Say I consider both forces represented by mars, then I'm not as accurate in my interpretation because mars in such case would represent so many things.

posted January 29, 2014 11:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by deepseablues:
I don't think there is anything to "buy" into.

I am a Scorpio and I do not feel connected to Mars in a Scorpionic way, way too fiery and energetic.

Scorpio is the death sign of the zodiac, the only sign with three symbols, scorpio, eagle and phoenix. We can be considered either a saint or devil or flip between the two but never both at the same time. Scorpio represents the highest of the high or the lowest of the low, all or nothing, which is very much in connection with the Pluto/Minerva, Pluto being a double planet (Pluto and Minerva were twins), Pluto representing the lowest, darkest side of humanity, Minerva the brightest, highest wisdom.
Keywords for Pluto are:
Positive:
Consecration, [b]Rebirth, Transformation, Construction, Free Flowingness, Submission, Transmutation, Wisdom, Illumination, Light, Heaven, Willingness, Grace, Integration
Negative:
Desecration, Death, Annihilation, Tribulation, Intensity , Submersion, Instinctive Force, Struggle, Obsession, Darkness, Hell, Wilfulness, Karma, Disintegration
All of which tie into Scorpionic themes more than Martian, also they tie into the transformation, rebirth aspect of Scorpio, plus the water side.
Some quotes for Scorpio:
"the hidden, stagnant marsh waters that must be cleansed by the free flowing waters of life." (transmutation, rebirth, illumination)
And a poem for Scorpio:
The high soul seeks the high way,
The low soul seek the low,
And in between on the misty flats
The rest drift to and fro

There are no Scorpios on the misty flats.
Regeneration is a key theme of Scorpio, represented better by Pluto than Mars.
Also, Pluto rules the underworld, hidden things, the depths/bowels, purging, garbage/trash; Scorpio represents the generative systems and bowels/rectum in the physical body as well as the genitals.
Scorpios aren't afraid to get dirty.

"Scorpio, sign of the death of the personality and the birth of the soul. Every seed must be buried in the darkness of the earth before it can break out of its shell and come up into light. All growth must begin its life in the dark. Every seed, even a human seed, needs that darkness before it is ready to reach toward the light. Pluto represents that life in dark. Minerva represents the light that is reached when the life force in the seed breaks its shell and pushes through the earth and grows towards the light."
This much better represents the struggle between dark and light that Scorpios undertake, the transmutation, regeneration than the planet Mars does. I personally don't see any fire in Scorpio, so how could it be represented by a fire planet? Pluto is a misunderstood planet, Scorpios are often misunderstood.

Jupiter to me is a fiery, bold, expansive, planet much more Sagittarian than Piscean.
Neptune is a watery, foggy, illusive planet, that better represents the two fish/oceanic theme of Pisces. Some people call Pisces the "dustpan of the zodiac." They have a little of all the signs in them, being the last of the 12 signs, not totally sure of who they are as they feel a bit of a connection with everyone/sign. To me this theme goes with the theme of Neptune with its Universal Love, sacrifice, understanding, illusion/delusion, psychicness... Because Pisces are so psychically sensitive they can turn to drugs/alcohol as an escape. Pisces is compassionate, musical; other Neptunian themes.

Just one opinion.[/B]

---

I second it.

posted January 30, 2014 01:20 AM            

quote:

---

Why the change from Mars to Pluto for Scorpio? I don't think it suits really.

---