posted March 14, 2014 09:41 AM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
And btw, I found what you said about "understanding" in your OP to be contradictory. You first make a distinction between being understood and loved but then immediately follow by saying not being understood equals not being supported or loved.

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I think it is the way I see it in a flight or fight mood. It might not even be completely valid or healthy.

Your definition of being understood is much more deeper, I suppose than me. I am talking more of while you are communicating your deepest thoughts whether somebody is being receptive or not. I guess Validation
and understood is used fairly interchangeable by me. http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2013/09/21/the-importance-of-validation/
http://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/why-its-time-to-stop-seeking-validati on-people-just-arent-that-objective/

For many years I seek out others to self praise and self compassionate me. I have learnt from them.

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Originally posted by PixieJane:

And btw, what exactly do you mean by "needs and wants"? Because some things are fairly obvious. Examples include comforting after a death, recognizing apprehension and offering comfort, looking to the needs of a pet you cherished or remembering you don't like unexpected guests so that they don't spring them on you, for example.

Other needs and wants are not so obvious. If someone asks if something is okay and you say it is when it's not then it's unreasonable for them to not take you at your word (and don't they deserve to be supported just as you do?), or to understand that's why you're mad at them when you won't say (especially as it's entirely possible to just be in a bad mood for reasons completely unrelated to the other person).

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You do better with scenarios so I would give you one. Say for instance my inlaws doesn't like travelling constantly and strongly believe to live in one place (since they have done in their life) and would even like us to do that. They assume that we would like to do same. They are fully aware how much we love travelling with amount of it we have travelled in the past. I know with the amount of time they have told me they expect a fixed life for us. As Humans we seek similarity and hate dissimilarity and thus moments like that if I am being polite as I know they would be very hurt by knowing that
they might not be able to see their child/ grandchild constantly at some future. Sometimes I focus on others needs A) I would completely forget that I have need to travel and haven't had chance to think about what I like / don't like, so if me not saying that time is only because I am not sure at that point. I know if I haven't disagreed then and there I have misled them and that is highly annoying for me. B) I haven't had a chance to think whether I would like to do same for my family or not or how would bring up my family.

I am sure they have interest in our family but at the same time I have dreams and future is fairly unknown.

I know I can go and say well I would like to do travelling and not stick in one place but by not saying anything, might have looked I am agreeing to it which I was clearly not.
Now, in my head I think they want to be in one place and have need for us to be in one place. I know it is very essential for them to realize that we are not going to but it also means that they are going to be disappointed when I explain. I know it is essential but maybe there is a fear to overcome for relationship to grow.(Saturn in 11th)

I would have appreciated open ended question like - Since you are married and going to have a child how do you see your future ? It is more considerate and shows you are listening open ended. Mind you I have asked them to ask questions, however they are too prude to look stupid. We know better attitude.

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Originally posted by PixieJane:

I know of one guy who lost a girlfriend because he actually respected her wishes to "wait until marriage for sex" though he expressed his passionate interest and then she went with a guy who did not respect her stated wishes and had sex with her because that was what she really wanted, her stated intentions were a lie and she did not want to be respected, she just wanted him to take complete responsibility for the decision she felt too guilty to make for herself and said he should've just known (personally, I think he was better off without her).

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Just generally it is how women is seen, if she come across too strong or experienced she is a ***** . If she doesn't she is a prude. I think there is society point of view in this as well. How do you balance it ? I think many women still struggle with this. She might not be ready for your friend but she felt more ready with other guy because he made him feel more comfortable. Time changes and it helps you to know more about yourself as well.

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Another example of being unreasonable is refusing to give clues on what you'd like for a present and then getting upset when you don't get what you dreamed of getting. These examples are from real life. People who refuse to communicate but expect people to "know" should just take a vow of silence and communicate by ink blots or pantomiming, at least then whose who put up with them won't forget that they're supposed to ignore the words and GUESS.

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Gift giving is bit of a test and so is when you have got it wrong there is disappointment. Have you been paying attention to what I have been saying or not ? I have been giving you subtle hints and telling you about myself. So Sorry can't help with that. I think person who has to do explaining is disappointed that they have to do explaining. I think for relationship to grow people should disappoint other person's belief and educate.

However I did try this with one of my best friends and after nearly 25 years of friendship, she couldn't take any more explaining from me. She hated that I explained and wouldn't let her see me the way she wanted to. She wanted to see me as unsuccessful, poor me or like a bully, horrible person. I did feel that I had to do lot of explaining after 25 years. It was not serving anyone well. Was it disappointing for me that she still didn't get it ? Definitely yes. Did she feel that what about her needs? Yes. Did she started to feel I am being defensive? Yes. Did I feel I wasted last 5 years? Yes, as I think she had made up her mind by that time and she didn't wanted to know any further or grow the relationship.
So all you people think that we do not explain. I have tried other way as well. Maybe there is a balance to not over explaining and not saying.

Sometimes there are differences and we can co-exist with those differences but it is essential to stand up, if it affects me personally. Sometimes it doesn't come easy to know those differences.

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Originally posted by PixieJane:

As for supporting decisions even if they don't seem right is reasonable to expect from someone else...unless, say, your gambling addiction is out of control or you just have to eat out at expensive restaurants all the time and maxing out the credit cards when doing so not only destroys your finances but also your partners or say your kids.

Some people won't take a job unless they're "passionate" about it, and that's fine for some people to live with, and for those who only have to take care of themselves...but not others who are directly affected by such a decision. That is, if you live with someone and put all the financial obligations on a partner (especially if you're maxing out the credit cards) then they're not obligated to be okay with that...though it's nice when they are (at least when it's because they can afford it and aren't doing it to keep you under their control, unless you WANT to be dependent like that in which case congratulations, y'all are compatible). But then caring about their wants and needs just as they do your own should lead you to a compatible relationship rather than seething in resentment of an incompatible relationship expecting the other to change for love (but not yourself).

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You make interesting scenario here as well.

What if in the others mind it is gambling and in your mind it is risk which you need to take for fulfilment of better life and yourself?

Again Money is quiet difficult issue.
Money has also become way to control people and it definitely creates in those kind of relations a space for abuse.

One side people say that you shouldn't be greedy, Money is evil. And at another Follow your passion and dreams Success stories. We live in very complicate mixed signal society. What society want is somebody who does something but most importantly earns money, pay taxes and help government to run this society on monthly basis. If you aren't doing that then you are made to feel useless.Housewives, students and retires are always made to feel like that.

We value success stories and get inspiration however most successful people whether Thomas Edison or Steve Jobb. They had to fail thousand times. Our society doesn't let you fail or even keep margin for it. Like when government and banks fail.On the News it is all name and shame.We compete furiously on GDPs.

When there is one Thomas Edison and one Steve Jobb there are thousands of Joe's who have tried and failed. There are not many alternatives a) either you live life as a very good citizen and pay your taxes .i.e. boring life or b) go against it and create your own path.When you create your own path people would be disappointed, make you feel useless and it isn't the norm. It isn't easy to be creating your own path + have nagging and not so supportive people around you + responsibilities.

Either you keep trying to do new things or either you fail and go back to your secured life.

I do not recommend irresponsible behaviour but complete disinterest in work has been current theme for many people and it leads people to leave their sensible and realistic life. I am not surprised with Pluto in Capricorn.

I see people who create their own path our candidate of Joe's who might/might not be great future innovators but there should be some more respects for having courage to leave secured life and fulfilling other responsibilities and most importantly responsibility they feel for their dreams. At the moment they are considered as burdens.

Only rich homes are able to pursue artistic ventures on long term basis. Certain profession would always be considered not yielding.

Society is more structured with Saturn and 9-5 job , hierarchy,pay check,etc is quiet Capricorn based with suit and tie.

Everybody goes through Neptune Transits - personal journey time and those transits are when we find ourselves sometimes without help to fulfil our personal responsibility.

There are very heavily Neptunian who finds reality of life and demands quiet stifling. They aren't seen as a positive light but more like outcast.

That is why when in Old India people were sent to ashrams and places to learn and explore where they were void of their daily responsibilities and had chance to get to know themselves. There are still religious people who go and wander and are barely supported by society. I think we are seeing New Age Sage of people want to pursue their dreams and positive Neptune traits like writing, film - making,music and art combining it with technology and trying to make life better. Since religion is considered to be brainwashing and less people really even feel proud to be religious.

However sometimes they soon realize the reality of life hinders their pursuing of their dreams and finding good balance of responsibility and fulfilling dreams has been very difficult.

Even though all good Neptunium traits give meaning to life. ( I was in a talk about how culture journalist have to work harder to be noticed ) We do not fully appreciate Neptune. Currently it is seen as in fact negative by Saturn Structure based society. You are gambling away your life - If you do not have a job and if you aren't earning. Short term gains are important than long term benefits.

I do not think people want to be dependent but I think it happens due to work in progress on certain things.There are Scroungers who abuse the system and who becomes dependent on that kind of behaviour.

posted March 14, 2014 09:47 AM            

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Originally posted by Padre35:

Sort of, when it comes to explaining, Scorps go through a process:

Anger
Vague statements about what is making them angry (that you are expected to understand)
Rejection of being angry
Being angry again
Avoidance of anyone they have shown how angry they are
Re-embrace of being angry and the ppl they talked with before about it
Acceptance of having "issues"

the whole thing never happened, that is to say, they will never talk about it again, but will completely recall how much one cared about them being angry in the first place..so watch what one says at that point, they will never forget it..like decades later will never forget it.

Good or bad..they will remember it

Ahh, Scorpios are fun, if they like you they'll sort of invite you over, sort of, no big deal..yet it is a big deal..Scorps take passive aggressive to new, unexplored, heights

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Thank you I never knew there was a process to this anger. I just want it to go away quickly and this whole process sounds too much time consuming and not very healthy or is it?
Processing at so many levels.