posted March 17, 2014 02:29 PM            

I know someone who has mars/Saturn square in natal. He and I have mars/Neptune trine in synastry. The chemistry is mutually crazy awesome but he won't act on it. Fear? Of what?

posted March 17, 2014 03:01 PM            

When I'm in a relationship with someone who triggers it I eventually have to confront my early traumas that usually become projected on whatever issues he and I have. Dominance vs submission is one, abuse, being taken for grated, giving without receiving as much, awkward sex, doing the right thing vs doing what you want, devotion - or not, abandonment, being unavailable, physically, emotionally or sexually (speaking of, I had bfs who couldn't perform - Mars/Saturn for ya).

Those aspects create a power unbalance that I am forced to deal with.

sag_stellium,
Mars-Saturn is a control freak. If the chemistry is too crazy, the risk of losing control is too big and that's why he might not act on it. I know I turned down guys I was very attracted to (sometimes in extreme ways) because I just couldn't let myself go. It's much more simpler when you're the smitten one and I can have control over you. The alternative is kinda terrifying. It might lure other women to hear how they will lose control and have multiple orgasms yadda yadda but that thought puts me on the defense more than acts as a turn on.

posted March 17, 2014 03:26 PM            

That really does align correctly with my experience with my, well, "not my guy." Haha. I've tried to be so patient. But the slowness is killing me. And he has Saturn square mars/venus/sun!

Like you said, I've seen him have strong reactions to me but it does really seem like he's terrified of exploding. I understand that. I felt that way once when i was a kid in one situation. It's really sucky to desire someone so deeply and be afraid of everything.

posted March 17, 2014 05:39 PM            

From my partner, it would help to have a sense of complete trust, support and acceptance. We usually carry a lot of baggage and we need to know we won't be rejected once the mask falls off and you see our true colors. By mask I mean the front we put up, that we are cool and collected and not much gets under our skin. Obviously not true. Showing vulnerability is often interpreted as weakness by us and a stoic attitude is usually preferred. However, this behavior is so counter productive in relationships, where you need a high degree of emotional communication!

It helps me to have you lower your guard first and show me it's ok to trust you. Get vulnerable first. I will need to have the upper hand over you for a while before I can relax around you. If you're aiming for his surrender, it's almost like mission: impossible. Ok, it's hard but who knows. Surrender carries the promise of freeing himself from what he fears the most. If he is smart, he knows that the only way to overcome fear is to surrender to it. But it's scary to say the least. I have been playing philosophically with that thought for some time but doubt I could trust someone enough to do it with.

posted March 18, 2014 09:05 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Nezumi:
How do you feel when someone's personal planet triggers this aspect in your chart?

How do those relationships (of any kind) play out in your experience?

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Usually there's interest at first, maybe a bit if intimidation, with both genders and all kinds of relationships. There can be admiration as well, and maybe some unease, like we can't be completely "ourselves" with the other person - an air of formality, almost.

When we get closer to the person however, it can turn into a subtle - or not so subtle - "war." Because they can easily push our buttons, and that in turn drives us over the edge.
It can be cruel, mean and abusive. The energy isn't easy to deal with, especially if one or both people have unresolved baggage (and, surprise, surprise! they usually do, let's not kid ourselves). I think there's karma involved - we're attracted to situations that "test" us and make it obvious that we have some sh** to deal with. It's like being faced with our shadow side - either through the other person or through our own reactions and behavior - and how we react to it determines the fate of the relationship. Obviously the other person has a huge role to play in this as well, and depending on how *they* react, our reactions can vary greatly.

We don't trust people easily and find it difficult to surrender.
It's honestly not easy to deal with so if you wanna get close to someone who has a Mars/Saturn hard aspect *especially* if they have other hard Saturn aspects... Good luck, because you'll need it, lmao. It won't be an easy ride and you'd better be prepared for some unpleasant times and most probably an ugly outcome.

You're the judge though - if you think the person can give you what you want / need, go ahead. But if you see that they have a sh**ton of stuff to deal with before they can "be" with you, then... Think twice before getting involved.

It depends on what you want. If you want to "work" on your relationship, this is a great opportunity. If you're tired of the BS and just want a safe, cozy type of relationship, this is probably not it.

posted March 18, 2014 01:08 PM            

Very interesting to read this all from a harsh Saturn/Mars perspective..

Well, it's because I'm the Moon/Venus/Mars planet person in the declinations closely (contra-)parallel his tight Saturn/Mars contra-parallel.. peww!

posted March 20, 2014 10:14 AM            

I've been having the hardest time after 1 year with my lovely Leo whom unfortunately has a TIGHT Mars square Saturn triggered by my Mercury.

(My Mercury conjunct his Saturn - therefore square his Mars. Sometimes it feels like all we do is fight and it exhausts us both. I think the only thing that gets us through is my Sag rising optimism and maybe that Saturn is his 7th house ruler?)

Everything you guys said is true -- if I hadn't understood astrology and seen his chart, I would have given up in the early stages as a lot of patience was required to wait for him to do things on his own time/according to his comfort level. When we argue, he bottles up negativity and then EXPLODES in it -- there are major control issues and themes that come to the forefront when times are tough.

One major instance of Mars square Saturn I noticed with him is after looking at couples we know, he told me he sees that in order for us to be happy he will have to give me the "keys" and make me the "queen of his world" but he feels reluctant to give this away just yet because he worries deep down that I will destroy him. I honestly have never felt this way in my relationships, but I can understand how Mars square Saturn manifests in terms of control, dominance, submission, and surrender -- so he was probably trying to work through that.

We take it day by day, although tbh Mars square Saturn has **excellent** long term planning capabilities, and they follow everything out almost exactly how they see it! Very admirable!

I am definitely more mindful of buttons now. The cruel, abusive (not physical - just unnecessarily hurtful sometimes!!!!) streak is real -- but it is almost always followed by sullen remorse after a moment of calm and quiet. My exuberant Leo can be super hard on himself, which I also see as Mars square Saturn. He knows now that his reactions can determine the fate of our relationship... this is something I've told him many times! After outbursts I will pick us back up and show him how it's his choice to act or not, make better/surrender or not -- for anyone else, repeatedly doing this may SUCK but I think my Sun-Pluto conjunct likes the ashes-sphinx upheaval....

He is also super super sensitive to my tone (Mercury) and gets deeply disturbed if he perceives aggression or coldness from me on any level. This is pretty normal in any relationship but very noticeable by pattern in this Mars-Square-Saturn one. Regarding our problematic moments, he says he likes it much better if I'm in a passive state (sad, tearful, or pouting) and it's much easier for him to resolve things. My Libra Mars likes a shouty debate every once in a while, but I really have to be careful here, I try to control my anger and ask for a hug instead of hollering like I might want.

Part of the difficulty is when he doesn't acknowledge difficult things he's done, maybe he represses that he did them, but the accountability becomes a big issue in our relationship. Do you guys find this too?

If you do something bad/mean, is it hard to admit it?

posted March 20, 2014 10:47 AM            

You're very welcome! I don't know what to say about your Leo. It seems like you're taking quite a bit on yourself. We're not easy partners, like Doux said. I think we make up for it, but we do need an understanding partner by our side - which you are, VERY! However, there might come a crisis when he takes things a bit too far - there is no guarantee that there will or that there won't, so please always stay safe and take precautions for your safety. It is important that he becomes aware of the energies surrounding this aspect asap. I would also recommend therapy, because he needs to learn ways to manage it on his own, without dragging you into it to fix his issues. That is not your job, it's his. It's gonna be horrible to look to the root of all evil - and there usually is; Saturn is the father or an authority figure, Mars is our drive and life engine. There is usually some form of abuse, sometimes sexual or physical but most often emotional. That is very sad and unfortunate, but it is not your job to save him, he needs to save himself. Taking responsibility for the cr*p he occasionally puts you through would be a start.

To answer your question, I feel horrible if I do something bad. It is VERY hard to admit it. When I was younger, I didn't. It feels suffocating to acknowledge it, I thought I would rather die than admit it. I am not like that anymore. I have done bad things and apologized for them. Not every time, it's still hard as f*ck. But I try to, it strengthens my personal power to confront my cowardice. And I prefer to do the right thing whenever possible. So, we do improve with age and maturity. I've also been doing therapy for 3 years now. I have not surrendered yet, though.

posted March 20, 2014 11:12 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rorrr:
Doux Reve & Dancing Maenad - this was so insightful, thank you so much.

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You're welcome, rorrr.

quote:

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Part of the difficulty is when he doesn't acknowledge difficult things he's done, maybe he represses that he did them, but the accountability becomes a big issue in our relationship. Do you guys find this too?

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Yes, most often than not.
I think the thing is that Saturn/Mars individuals were often made to feel guilty growing up (overtly or not), maybe they were criticized or dismissed or abused in some way. Treated harshly (in their own, subjective viewpoint, *at least*). So when someone makes them feel guilty or like they screwed up, they can react with anger or denial because they don't want to be manipulated by others or forced to admit that they screwed up - it can bring up some unpleasant childhood experiences and remind them of the 'bad parent' (whom they probably resent for abusing power over them). So in turn they become mean/abusive to the person who reminds them of the dismissive parent, as a sort of unconscious revenge - they want to regain the power they felt they lost during their early years.
Well, that's how I see it, and I think it's pretty accurate since I have this aspect and have known quite a few people with it, including two family members (it tends to run in families, ouch).

quote:

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If you do something bad/mean, is it hard to admit it?

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Yes, very much so.
Again, it goes back to feeling guilt-tripped and that in turn evokes negative emotions like irritation, anger, or denial.
Admitting to doing something bad/wrong is basically equated with admitting to being a bad person who deserves punishment and that's a threat to the ego defenses. Besides there can be overwhelming (repressed, and sometimes not so repressed) guilt with those aspects because growing up, children pick up on their parents' feelings and if there was a lot of discontentment / criticism at home or of the child, then the child ends up incorporating these feelings / thoughts and starts believing them. When they become an adult however they can shut down these thoughts and feelings (denial/repression in order to 'survive') and that's where the anger issues come from - feeling slighted and reacting in a disproportionate way, because the present event triggers past experiences - the person reacts to the loss of power they feel when someone basically "confirms" their badness (like their parents made them feel).
Some Mars/Saturn people were actually abused as children, not just emotionally but also physically, so that's something to keep in mind. And, I use the word 'abused' widely here, from the most "innocent" forms (emotional blackmail / manipulation) to the most severe forms (physical / sexual abuse). In the eyes of an adult it may not seem like a big deal, but to a child everything is amplified - children are very receptive to any kind of feeling from their parents so if there was a dysfunctional environment, they pick up on that, and if they were picked at a lot and got physical punishment from their parents (even spanking) that can have pretty severe consequences later on (like I said - feeling guilty / deserving of punishment and then pushing the thoughts / feelings down into the unconscious mind, that often gets triggered by events / people and manifests as anger or depression issues).

This looks like a messy psychology essay, sorry, I hope I'm making sense.

quote:

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Also - will this be a lifelong battle? Or will you one day surrender... Hoping for a peaceful light at the end of the tunnel. And a bit worried about the impact Mars square Saturn might have on raising kids...

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I believe that people don't change unless they truly want to change. So it's up to him, and there's not much you can do about it, except tell him your concerns and suggest he works on his behavior / reactions.
Depends on the severity of the problem, really. He may not be aware of the roots of the problem and talking about it may be uncomfortable, so suggesting "help" may prove futile, but it's worth a shot.

posted March 20, 2014 12:05 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dancing Maenad:
rorrr,

You're very welcome! I don't know what to say about your Leo. It seems like you're taking quite a bit on yourself. We're not easy partners, like Doux said. I think we make up for it, but we do need an understanding partner by our side - which you are, VERY! However, there might come a crisis when he takes things a bit too far - there is no guarantee that there will or that there won't, so please always stay safe and take precautions for your safety. It is important that he becomes aware of the energies surrounding this aspect asap. I would also recommend therapy, because he needs to learn ways to manage it on his own, without dragging you into it to fix his issues. That is not your job, it's his. It's gonna be horrible to look to the root of all evil - and there usually is; Saturn is the father or an authority figure, Mars is our drive and life engine. There is usually some form of abuse, sometimes sexual or physical but most often emotional. That is very sad and unfortunate, but it is not your job to save him, he needs to save himself. Taking responsibility for the cr*p he occasionally puts you through would be a start.

To answer your question, I feel horrible if I do something bad. It is VERY hard to admit it. When I was younger, I didn't. It feels suffocating to acknowledge it, I thought I would rather die than admit it. I am not like that anymore. I have done bad things and apologized for them. Not every time, it's still hard as f*ck. But I try to, it strengthens my personal power to confront my cowardice. And I prefer to do the right thing whenever possible. So, we do improve with age and maturity. I've also been doing therapy for 3 years now. I have not surrendered yet, though.

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Dancing Maenad, thank you so much for your thoughtful and articulate reply!

Do you think abuse or trauma is usually a feature regarding Mars square Saturn charts? I've read that many times and wondered about it, but he has such a loving and supportive family that I find it hard to believe. He also has a 2 degree Mars trine Jupiter so he is quite cheerful and happy-go-lucky by nature... and I have a tight Sun conjunct Pluto in Scorpio with argumentative Libra Merc & Mars, so I can definitely take on his outbursts with some fearsome venom of my own Feeling really bad for the neighbours though at this point....!

Your advice about therapy is so brilliant; it makes me glad to hear that has helped, and age & maturity as well tempers any Saturn aspect into karmic character strength, so I will just trust in that...

For me being so Plutonian, the pluto motto is like "too far? what's too far? this Pluto will take you DEEP!" but one thing I'm very vigilant about is how much he ***deeply fears*** his own destructive capability, like the steel of Saturn is backing Mars action in tension -- that's why cutting off is the normative (and sometimes best or easiest) response to difficulty. As a Scorpio I do believe that anybody can possess or reach a dark nature and be capable of cruelty, and sometimes glimpsing his fear of his potential for this can be alarming. But everybody has this capacity; I do take a bit of solace knowing he fears his own anger more than I do.

That is so funny to read you felt like you'd rather die than admit something you did wrong! Lol!!! I can actually see that as it's happening; nobody can say Mars square Saturn doesn't try. But it must be hard to be in a relationship where somebody synastrically triggers your deep fears. Easy, simple relationship it is not... but as individuals we grow the most by our relationships, and Mars square Saturns are some of the fastest best learners I've ever met. So there is lots of hope

Maybe regarding the surrender thing... I look at it as though it's like all the successful couples in the world feeling like they each get "their way" by pretending to the other that he/she is having it their way. Lol... If I get all the happiness and fun I want my way 95% of the time, I'm okay to put down my Libra fighting club while I wait for Mars/Saturn to drop it's defences. Who surrenders to whom in any relationship is never clear, but when your heart is involved there is already surrender - Mars square Saturn will just always be the last person to put down their arms in a fight. I think that is just the way it goes...

I'd be curious to hear if anybody has a Mars square Saturn parent? I wonder if for men this means they fight (Mars) parental duty and fatherhood responsibility (Saturn)...?

posted March 20, 2014 12:26 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rorrr:
...I have a tight Sun conjunct Pluto in Scorpio with argumentative Libra Merc & Mars, so I can definitely take on his outbursts with some fearsome venom of my own Feeling really bad for the neighbours though at this point....!

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So it isn't only your Mercury but Merc and Mars conjuncting his Saturn and squaring his Mars, is that correct?

posted March 20, 2014 12:26 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Doux Rêve:
Mae ^ I've just seen your post, good points.

I believe that people don't change unless they truly want to change. So it's up to him, and there's not much you can do about it, except tell him your concerns and suggest he works on his behavior / reactions.
Depends on the severity of the problem, really. He may not be aware of the roots of the problem and talking about it may be uncomfortable, so suggesting "help" may prove futile, but it's worth a shot.

Mars/Mercury in synastry (especially with Saturn in the mix) can be verbally abrasive. Definitely doesn't sound like a good mix for a healthy environment for children, unless you open the lines of communication to such a point that you can discuss anything without having to get angry and agitated about things.
Working with each other instead of against each other, is key. And feeling like someone is truly on their side can be difficult for Mars/Saturn folks.

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Brilliant, Doux Rêve! You & Mae are giving me so much insight and validation to things I wondered before but never confirmed that I could just kiss you both!!! Smack smack smack lol!

I definitely understand your psychology explanation. Our relationships are the #1 arena for exorcising out childhood fears. I bring up parenting in my posts above because I was super rebellious and awful as a teenager against any controlling efforts by my father, and this Mars Saturn bf is like my karmic retribution; I can see straight through his control issues, but the last thing I want is for my kids to deal with a controlling parent the way I felt I had. I suppose it's all connected.

The Mars-Mercury synastry is a good point though, and a big red flag for me. I will have to think on that. Good advice. Abrasive is definitely the word... I always believe people can work things out beyond their synastry, but in some cases it may not be worth it.

posted March 20, 2014 12:32 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by page one:
So it isn't only your Mercury but Merc and Mars conjuncting his Saturn and squaring his Mars, is that correct?

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No, just my Mercury conjunct his Saturn (which triggers his Saturn square Mars)

If my Mars was involved in this square I would not have made it a year!!! Oh my goodness that would have been explosive awful synastry.

posted March 20, 2014 12:55 PM            

quote:

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I'd be curious to hear if anybody has a Mars square Saturn parent? I wonder if for men this means they fight (Mars) parental duty and fatherhood responsibility (Saturn)...?

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That's definitely a possible manifestation.

My father has it, he wasn't a very good father, too strict and not very caring (his upbringing explains that). He wasn't present for me (or my sister) much and used to go in and out of the family (lack of responsibility / commitment), and left for good when I was 9. He used to tell my mother he didn't feel any attachment to his family (us) and that he didn't feel like being a father (he didn't really want children but my mother got pregnant with my sister and decided to give birth to her and then later I was born but I was unwanted by him). He had many mistresses over the years and was abusive verbally and physically to my mother, and was addicted to alcohol at some point as well (Sun conjunct Neptune).

But karma bit him in the butt and now he has 3 kids to raise on his own (his wife is a very... um, unbalanced person, who treats him like dirt and takes advantage of him, using him and the kids for financial purposes). Besides he has a difficult job and health problems.
He's taking his role as a father seriously now though, and doesn't mess around.
I still feel quite sad / bitter about the fact that he wasn't a good father to me but takes care of his other children.

What goes around comes around...
I do feel sorry for the man, though.

My sister and I "inherited" this aspect from him and we all have a mean / cruel edge and anger issues, mainly in the form of irritability and a short temper.
We've all had depressive episodes as well.

So yeah... It's not an easy aspect to have and it's difficult for those around as well.

FYI: my mother's Venus and Moon both aspect my father's Saturn, so the issues around it were very triggered by her.

Oh and, I do not think that abuse is inevitable with this aspect... But I do think that it requires a *lot* of self-work and maturity, from both people.

posted March 20, 2014 01:02 PM            

And yes, they're awesome planners and doers. The sheer magnitude of what this man has accomplished at such a young age brings out awe in me.

This thread has given me so much insight from the time it started. It has made a massive difference in my perception of reality. Doux and Dancing M, Y'all rock thank you for understanding your complex situations well enough that you can it share with us so clearly and with in depth insight.

I now understand the magnitude of the problems. It doesn't mean I get every single problem. Dancing, you're right about it being the individual's problem and that we are not responsible for their healing. All we can do is be there and be supportive as long as it is appropriate for us (non mars Saturn person).

posted March 20, 2014 01:06 PM            

quote:

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We need to have a strong sense of self to help them realize that they can't push us down.

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posted March 20, 2014 01:31 PM            

Rorrr, if your Mercury-Mars conjuncts his Saturn, I think you should learn to back off during arguments instead.

posted March 20, 2014 01:50 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by summerlite:
I have Mars sq Saturn and if someone's Mercury conjunct my Saturn, it's not pleasant.

Rorrr, if your Mercury-Mars conjuncts his Saturn, I think you should learn to back off during arguments instead.

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Summerlite, what does your Saturn feel/react like in a saturn/mercury situation? Your perspective would shed some light on the situation Rorrr and I are in.

It's Rorrr's mercury and the guy's mars+saturn.

posted March 20, 2014 03:17 PM            

quote:

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'd be curious to hear if anybody has a Mars square Saturn parent? I wonder if for men this means they fight (Mars) parental duty and fatherhood responsibility (Saturn)...?

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posted March 20, 2014 04:05 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dancing Maenad:
They don't make positive aspects to my personal planets at all, so I never felt either one of them as "supportive", I was the supportive one, to them.

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posted March 20, 2014 07:22 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by summerlite:
I have Mars sq Saturn and if someone's Mercury conjunct my Saturn, it's not pleasant.

Rorrr, if your Mercury-Mars conjuncts his Saturn, I think you should learn to back off during arguments instead.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doux Rêve:
This x100.
Never ever show too much "weakness" to a Mars/Saturn person if you want their respect.
Don't let them walk all over you and don't make them feel like you need them or can't live without them.

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Ahh.... I simultaneously understand both of these statements and yet cannot grasp their congruence at all.

Given that I've been paying close attention to Mars square Saturn relationship themes for the past year, I notice this is the case, and yet logically it baffles me.

This craving passivity while demanding respectability at the same time is so so tricky to satisfy in a relationship with Mars square Saturn. The soft power approach is something my clumsy and uber-honest Sagg AC has yet to master.

Gentle but firm may be the answer. The only solution I've developed so far is to completely redress my tone when responding during arguments... I literally sound like Oprah Winfrey sometimes. "Now listen darling..."

As a Scorpio with Pisces Moon it can be tough to keep emotion out of my voice, but I think during troublesome moments of Mars square Saturn interaction, that is what is most effective. Not necessarily sounding cold, but I have learned that ANYTHING threatening unleashes the Mars square Saturn interplay. It triggers a big shut down or short, intense mean period - not sure which is worse!!!

I've always believed that relationships or any ships will always bring some level of conflict or tension, but that working through it can strengthen understanding and develop your ability to compromise and grow. However, Mars square Saturn synastry might be the exception... I've been blowing off his responses on this, but he might be right that prevention (avoiding conflict as much as you can: his Libra Moon) is key to protecting your relationship and preserving the sweetness. How exactly to do this is a million dollar question though!

...Doux Rêve, thank you so much for explaining this, you've written it so beautifully with your perceptiveness. I too am sorry you had to go through everything at such a young age, but that process of self fulfillment you went through by separating childhood traumas from your sense of self and needs have given you a keen gift of perception and insight -- and glimpsing even just a bit of that through your posts has helped me understand this complex aspect tremendously. So that's why I'm saying thank you

Mae, oh my goodness that Pluto synastry in your family must have been so so fierce, you are much stronger than me!!! My family had loads of harsh Saturn interplay too, so I can relate with you there on the support thing. One of my biggest fears is introducing any level of Plutonian venom into my family, so I am trying to understand these control issues as much as I can to prepare myself so any family I might have will be ensconced in a safe and loving environment. Maybe my plans will not involve this man after all... we had a huge Mars-Saturn aggressive scary thing today, and now I am really full of doubts that after 1 year it will continue to get better.