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Author Topic:   Scientific Proof of Astrology
freebrainstorms
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posted May 31, 2014 07:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for freebrainstorms     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey guys,

I'm in a battle via the internet with someone talking the usual about how astrology in ******** . Anybody have any links to some very intensely scientific articles proving it? I recognize that I might be knowledgeable enough to understand them but he's really ******* me off with this "Well, but show me some proof". I need hardcore stuff, this guy already tried to tell me that not everybody believes that the moon affects human behaviour.

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anonymidarkness
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posted May 31, 2014 08:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for anonymidarkness     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Science does not really believe in astrology. I think it will be difficult to find them. Let him assume whatever the **** he wants. You know the truth, right ? That’s enough.

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TuxLuigi
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posted May 31, 2014 08:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TuxLuigi     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't remember seeing any scientific proof of astrology being right in any way.
But then I don't think any of the scientifical experiments that were made yet were done the right way. Chart interpretations are not 100% face value when the person doing one is a mere human, doesn't have access to anything deeper than a basic birth chart, and gets influenced by intuition/emotions/imagination. This is not accounting for people who apply astrology to absolutely everything and somehow become surprised when they are proven wrong.

As for experiments in which people try to pick their "right" birth chart, again, it is easy to identify with it when the interpretations for it are too vague and/or avoid being harsh and/or only take each aspect and position alone without considering the rest.

Astrology in itself is no science. It's a tool, yes, but it doesn't need physical experiments, and it's not to be taken as 100% face value as interpretations are not pure facts.
There's also the fact we have found nothing in physics or astronomy that may support the mechanics of astrology.

Just give him his birth chart (Cafe Astrology generates interpretations too, and some of them are rather great if you ask me). If he feels it is accurate, sweet, that's more knowledge for him, if not, ask why, that's more knowledge for you.

And anyway, what does it change whether he actually trusts astrology or not? Most people don't. It hasn't killed them or changed the order of the universe. For all we know, astrology could actually be completely wrong - there's many people who will agree with that anyway, and not for nothing.

I don't think you should get that annoyed at this.

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Randall
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posted May 31, 2014 08:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Don't let it upset you. Astrology is outside the realm of science. How it works is beyond science, at least by our current knowledge.

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Solar_Leo_Queen
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posted May 31, 2014 08:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Solar_Leo_Queen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think there's any scientific proof of astrology. I believe that believing is seeing and in Science, everything has to have proof. Astrology is part of the higher mind, while Science is part of the lower mind. If that person needs proof about everything he believes, then he's obviously one of those close-minded people who are stuck in the physical realm. For one to believe that astrology is real, one must accept all the countless possibilities that the universe could bring--even the unseen.

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themischievousone
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posted May 31, 2014 09:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for themischievousone     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think there is scientific proof of it.

What I always think of is it has been proven that the moon, sun and gravity makes ocean tides. The moon's gravity force is strong enough "pull" water towards the moon so to speak. The moon is pulls up on the water while the earth pulls downward. And look how close the moon is. This is from the earth, moon, and sun.

Then there are the people who say the moon affects moods.

It would be rather silly to think that other planets and planetary bodies have no affect earth.

And I think Astrology is that partial attempt to explain it. The planets energy in relation to earth.

Or I just think about the weirdest things.

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themischievousone
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posted May 31, 2014 09:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for themischievousone     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was just googling things about human behavior and moon. I found this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_effect


I haven't read through much of it yet but it might be worth looking at the citations?

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lvASTRO
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posted May 31, 2014 10:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lvASTRO     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I always just tell people this:

We are all made up of atoms older than history can account for. All of the carbon and nitrogen in our bodies was once star matter. This is science.

The moon and gravity, influenced by the sun, affect the tides, as well as human bodies (menstrual cycles, etc.). Therefore, it is not unsafe, nor inaccurate, to assume that since we are some 60-75% water, that gravity, the moon, and the celestial push/pull effect of the universe must have some effect over our being, as well. This extrapolation leads that the effect then must be: Physical > Mental > Emotional. Each controls the next. This is science.

Even some of the greatest minds (Plato/Aristotle/Voltaire/even Sigmund Freud) put stock in Astrology.

I think it's stupid to say astrology has no validity whatsoever. Is it hard science? No. Does it take a certain measure of spirituality and open-mindedness. Yes.

I think it's a two-sided coin. Some of it has to be very valid. Other parts, wishful thinking. Every topic will have opponents and proponents. That's the nature of having an opinion, yeah?

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FireMoon
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posted May 31, 2014 11:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FireMoon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There's mainly just quantum physics at this point, but quantum physics IS science, there's so much more we could be learning about it..

There's not a lot out there on this but I have a couple links I've posted randomly before lol. I know you'll mainly just sound like a crazy person trying to debate this with people, but keep in mind "scientists" also used to believe the earth is flat...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deepak-chopra/your-brain-is-the-univers_b_2992746.html

http://themindunleashed.org/2013/07/physicists-find-evidence-that-universe.html

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Marandana
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posted May 31, 2014 11:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marandana     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Everytime I deal with someone trying to make me feel like a fool for believing in astrology, I always tell them: Well, I don't care if you believe in ir or not, it won't change the fact that I do.

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Brobian
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posted June 01, 2014 12:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brobian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Where is this conversation being held at? Can I come chat too? lol

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anonymidarkness
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posted June 01, 2014 12:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for anonymidarkness     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
^lol. Maybe you can invite him to this thread.

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TuxLuigi
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posted June 01, 2014 07:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for TuxLuigi     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Solar_Leo_Queen:
I don't think there's any scientific proof of astrology. I believe that believing is seeing and in Science, everything has to have proof. Astrology is part of the higher mind, while Science is part of the lower mind. If that person needs proof about everything he believes, then he's obviously one of those close-minded people who are stuck in the physical realm. For one to believe that astrology is real, one must accept all the countless possibilities that the universe could bring--even the unseen.

Not to be rude, but saying "science is part of the lower mind" or that someone who needs proof for everything they think is true is "close-minded" is... maybe a little close-minded by itself?

quote:
Originally posted by themischievousone:
I don't think there is scientific proof of it.

What I always think of is it has been proven that the moon, sun and gravity makes ocean tides. The moon's gravity force is strong enough "pull" water towards the moon so to speak. The moon is pulls up on the water while the earth pulls downward. And look how close the moon is. This is from the earth, moon, and sun.

Then there are the people who say the moon affects moods.

It would be rather silly to think that other planets and planetary bodies have no affect earth.

And I think Astrology is that partial attempt to explain it. The planets energy in relation to earth.

Or I just think about the weirdest things.


The moon is the closest celestial object we have - so close it's actually orbitting our own planet. The sun more or less affects our mood too in a way, and it's another important object to us as we are orbitting it, and we get all our light from it. But planets like Jupiter are so ridiculously far from us that there is no way their gravity could have an effect on our planet, and certainly not on our minds. Although it IS correct that the gas giants have the neat effect of preventing asteroids from taking a stroll on Earth. But that does not support astrology, sadly.

quote:
Originally posted by themischievousone:
I was just googling things about human behavior and moon. I found this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_effect


I haven't read through much of it yet but it might be worth looking at the citations?


Basically, most of it is disproven, except for possibly sleep quality. Possibly.

quote:
Originally posted by lvASTRO:

I think it's stupid to say astrology has no validity whatsoever. Is it hard science? No. Does it take a certain measure of spirituality and open-mindedness. Yes.

I think it's a two-sided coin. Some of it has to be very valid. Other parts, wishful thinking. Every topic will have opponents and proponents. That's the nature of having an opinion, yeah?


Well put.

Sorry for quoting all of these by the way.

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coteau
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posted June 01, 2014 07:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for coteau     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think I found these links somewhere in this forum, but i can't find it.

Planets affecting animals: http://astrologynewsservice.com/news/pups-in-paris-influenced-by-planetary-alignments/

Gauquelin proved that most high competition athlethes had a dominant mars, I think: http://astrologynewsservice.com/articles/the-gauquelin-controversy/

this site talks about flawed astrology tests and how the tests that proved astrology was real were covered up http://www.astrologer.com/tests/basisofastrology.htm#flawedtests


people trying to debunk astrology and failing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbwrCfj7VMg

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Randall
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posted June 01, 2014 08:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The problem science has with Astrology is how distant bodies can effect individuals. There is no known force in physics that can accomplish this. Gravity is actually a very weak force compounded by distance. Several planets don't have magnetic poles, so it can't be that either.

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TuxLuigi
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posted June 01, 2014 11:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for TuxLuigi     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by coteau:

this site talks about flawed astrology tests and how the tests that proved astrology was real were covered up http://www.astrologer.com/tests/basisofastrology.htm#flawedtests

All these links are great, but this one in particular is a good read. The whole page is a good read, actually.

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PeterPan
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posted June 01, 2014 11:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for PeterPan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by themischievousone:
I don't think there is scientific proof of it.

What I always think of is it has been proven that the moon, sun and gravity makes ocean tides. The moon's gravity force is strong enough "pull" water towards the moon so to speak. The moon is pulls up on the water while the earth pulls downward. And look how close the moon is. This is from the earth, moon, and sun.

Then there are the people who say the moon affects moods.

It would be rather silly to think that other planets and planetary bodies have no affect earth.

And I think Astrology is that partial attempt to explain it. The planets energy in relation to earth.

Or I just think about the weirdest things.


Ive tought about the exact same thing! now if only we could prove it somehow

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AlexDern
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posted June 01, 2014 01:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AlexDern     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We already know that the planets influence us more than cars, etc....

The classic Newtonian argument against astrology is that a car exerts more gravitational force on us than the moon. However, this has already been proven false.

It is a fact that the phase of the moon correlates to dreams and to the biological rhythm of certain organisms and the bottom of the sea, which means it is not a product of moonlight, but the actual location of the moon.

The moon therefore, in fact, has more influence on us than any object in our immediate vicinity. This is an immutable fact and law of mathematics as well as science. It cannot be refuted. Although we do not know how...one suggestion is through the apparatus of morphic fields.

Furthermore...string theory indicates that there are relationships between electrons that are entangled. This is only the tip of the iceberg. String theory proposes that there are as many relationships between your quantum particles and the quantum particles of star systems in another galaxy as there are between you and another person in the same room. Again, String Theory is not necessarily proven but it tries to account for relationships which are proven and factual in nature. Nonlocaltiy and quantum entanglement are here to stay, and we can bet that we will probably discover even deeper stronger connections if we do ever pierce the higgs field.

So the idea that science disproves astrology is one of a low I.Q. because the person is relying on a linear, superstitious way, of thinking. The truth is space and time fold upon themselves in an array of relational facts. There are connections between the micro or quantum realm and the macro or galactic realm which pass through and have no measurable affect on our own measurable realm - or the reaches of our perceptions in terms of a 3D space.

This is a fact because we cannot unify our laws...they fold in upon each other. Someone who cannot visualize this is having issues with a lack of ability involving cognition - or has a low IQ.

Anyways..this relates to astrology because the planets do influence our behavior...this is a fact - both directly and indirectly. Perhaps in astrology there is the fact that we don't know exactly how...but I would argue further that stories and myths are a product of our DNA, and our DNA is a product of our environment, both immediate and galactice, and therefore any sort of myth we contrive as a collective species and project out into the stars is informed by those very stars.

So to say that our myth's are irrelevant or redundant as biological functions is to be extremely myopic and asinine and also stupid.
Just as the BEE builds a honeycomb using a hexagonal structural formation, we humans form myth, which informs society. We also have a proclivity towards dividing the circle into 12 which is as biological as anything since the number 12 is arbitrary otherwise.

Fee free to edit and copy and paste this if you wish to use it. It will probably shatter the linear thinkers brain though and he will probably proceeds to engage in heavy drug use while watching Carl Sagan spout off some boring nonsense about science in the 1970's...as opposed to our current scientific revelations.

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CAY_512
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posted June 01, 2014 02:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for CAY_512     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What do you get out of it? If you prove astrology works? Sometimes it is best to let go. Not everyone is ready to learn about.
There is science that shows non organic foods cause cancer but people still don't believe it. Even with science people will not always understand or want to learn.

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manderin
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posted June 01, 2014 07:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for manderin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The problem is that when someone asks for scientific proof what they are really asking for is what science believes SO FAR.

If you had asked for scientific proof that the earth was round before the days of columbus there wouldn't have been any and therefore anyone saying that it was round was called a crackpot.

If you had asked 2 centuries ago for scientific proof that the gravitational pull of the moon had more affect on us than the gravitational pull of metalic early items there wouldn't have been any and therefore those saying the moon affected us were called crackpots.

If you currently ask someone for proof that even planets as far as Saturn have an affect on us, you will be called a liar or a crackpot because there is currently none...but some day there will be.

No proof doesn't necessarily equal false... It just means there is currently no proof.

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Babysmackle
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posted June 02, 2014 12:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Babysmackle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by manderin:
The problem is that when someone asks for scientific proof what they are really asking for is what science believes SO FAR.

If you had asked for scientific proof that the earth was round before the days of columbus there wouldn't have been any and therefore anyone saying that it was round was called a crackpot.

If you had asked 2 centuries ago for scientific proof that the gravitational pull of the moon had more affect on us than the gravitational pull of metalic early items there wouldn't have been any and therefore those saying the moon affected us were called crackpots.

If you currently ask someone for proof that even planets as far as Saturn have an affect on us, you will be called a liar or a crackpot because there is currently none...but some day there will be.

No proof doesn't necessarily equal false... It just means there is currently no proof.


There is proof. It's called non locality and quantum entanglement. These are facts.

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Aries23Degrees
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posted June 02, 2014 03:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aries23Degrees     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by freebrainstorms:
Hey guys,

I'm in a battle via the internet with someone talking the usual about how astrology in ******** . Anybody have any links to some very intensely scientific articles proving it? I recognize that I might be knowledgeable enough to understand them but he's really ******* me off with this "Well, but show me some proof". I need hardcore stuff, this guy already tried to tell me that not everybody believes that the moon affects human behaviour.


This reminds me of a story.

A man was walking down a lush full patch of scented greens, odd-looking flowers and a serene pond. He had never known such beauty in all his life.

When he looked at this marvel of nature, he thought he saw two fairies dancing on the pond. He stepped closer to have a second look and indeed, there were two fairies dancing on the pond.

Excited, he ran up the road to tell everyone of his discovery and share the joy. But when "everyone" came, there were no fairy's to be found.And little by little he began to doubt himself too: Was it fairies that he saw? Or were they insects that looked nearly human?

The man was branded a liar and mentally handicapped.Eventually,he was later incarcerated into a mental institution for continually asserting what he saw.

All the days he spent there,he wished he hadn't bothered and kept the findings to himself.

Point is; the more you try and "prove" something to others, the less certain you become of its validity yourself. Let other people draw their own conclusion, keep only to your truth and avoid "imprisonment".

Well,in this case, mental ridicule by those who deem themselves more "rational" than you are.

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AlexDern
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posted June 02, 2014 04:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AlexDern     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aries23Degrees:
This reminds me of a story.

A man was walking down a lush full patch of scented greens, odd-looking flowers and a serene pond. He had never known such beauty in all his life.

When he looked at this marvel of nature, he thought he saw two fairies dancing on the pond. He stepped closer to have a second look and indeed, there were two fairies dancing on the pond.

Excited, he ran up the road to tell everyone of his discovery and share the joy. But when "everyone" came, there were no fairy's to be found.And little by little he began to doubt himself too: Was it fairies that he saw? Or were they insects that looked nearly human?

The man was branded a liar and mentally handicapped.Eventually,he was later incarcerated into a mental institution for continually asserting what he saw.

All the days he spent there,he wished he hadn't bothered and kept the findings to himself.

Point is; the more you try and "prove" something to others, the less certain you become of its validity yourself. Let other people draw their own conclusion, keep only to your truth and avoid "imprisonment".

Well,in this case, mental ridicule by those who deem themselves more "rational" than you are.



CLAPS!!! BRAVO BRAVO! A revisionist version of prometheus, atlas, and chiron being punished for teaching the mystery of the gods!

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IndigoDirae
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posted June 02, 2014 10:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for IndigoDirae     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Guys. Guys. It's easy.

Alter your perspective.

As a freshman, I took an incredible grad-level course (long, long story) on Philosophy of Mind. It taught me the principle of functionalism. When I used mathematics as a means of proving the theory in my term paper, I knew astrology was just awaiting the relationship.

Functionalism, in simplest terms, is the universal relation of abstract principles. For example, Pluto's designation as a planet means nothing in regards to how astrologers for decades have chosen its meaning in relationship to delineation.

'But that isn't science, it's philosophy,' I hear you saying. Spot-on, but it brings us closer to where we hope to go, now that we're not dealing in the realm of the physical - but the abstract.

When is astrology a science?

When it employs the scientific method.

Ever taken a database of charts and noticed that 40 out of the 200 shared an aspect? Didn't realise you were 'doing science', did you? It's so commonplace, at this point, as we seek answers in the data as a matter of routine.

The truth is, good astrology, like good science, doesn't try and explain or attribute metaphysical forces, or claim a faith-based engine. It seeks to serve the data, and, accept that hypotheses may be false, astrologers may be incorrect, there's no harm, no foul, and it's back to the drawing board. Or, in our case, database.

Astrology is as much of a science as any soft or theoretical science.

It's not a physical science, no, and should never assert itself to be.

But physical scientists make the same arguments against psychology and modern physics everyday, so, we're in good company.

Devise testable hypotheses, serve the data according to the principles of the scientific method, and astrology is just like any other science in that regard.

It becomes a matter of statistics. And I dare anyone with sense to argue against the scientific value of statistics.

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IndigoDirae
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posted June 02, 2014 10:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for IndigoDirae     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Babysmackle:
There is proof. It's called non locality and quantum entanglement. These are facts.

I respectfully disagree. Nonlocality can help us better understand the hyperdimensional nature of time, for example, but I don't believe it's any physical relationship.

Merely that we are all, including our universe (multiverse) and perception of the whole shebang, holographic.

In that sense, nonlocality could show a relationship. But as fascinating as it is to theorise what's happening to the entangled electrons in a crystal lattice, our present system of mathematics is too primitive, even too linear, and, sadly, lacking necessary dimension, to express it. The closest we can come is Schrödinger's Equation, when used independent of time.

There's a very, very small chunk of the population that can solve that. Alas, far fewer are also astrologers.

While modern physics IS the future of physics, it's best to leave it at 'all is in holographic, nonlocal relationship to everything else,' and if they're physical scientists, cite the scientific method, and both of you can remain civil - and correct.

A rare feat!

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