posted September 27, 2014 03:36 PM            

I would like to hear your opinions on whether or not we are who we are (based on what you know about yourself and others astrologically) as the means to an end, an experience, or something along those lines (if we chose to be who we are today before we incarnated as us); or if we are all part of the flow of the cycles of the natural universe (all of existence) and Leo Sun/Virgo Moon's have similar personalities
just as the trees grow leaves around Aries and shed them around Libra.

posted September 27, 2014 04:12 PM            

Sag Moon here too, conjunct Neptune (both trine Mercury). Had to reply lol.

posted September 27, 2014 06:06 PM            

And my chart is one who fearlessly studies the unknown (including topics that many consider disturbing or scary) who can tie in seemingly unrelated subjects into a holistic whole without being too likely to be overwhelmed or destroyed by that search for understanding. But whether I (subconsciously) chose this chart to accomplish something along those lines or if I'm this way because of when I was born isn't something I can say. Intuitively I think dichotomy is an illusion here as it is in so many other places, but I can't describe such things without getting all mystical and more hinting than defining and I'm a bit confused by it all myself. Once in a blue moon it all makes sense to me but then I forget again.

I've been exploring a specific past life and how it has imposed itself on this life. It's complicated to explain because most people tend to have very simplistic views on these matters or assume it's all "I wondered if I lived before, imagined something, and was instantly convinced that it was all real." And I'm not in the mood to try to explain the nuances of this, but suffice to say I believe that me and others in the other life SUBCONSCIOUSLY created the circumstances in this life. No spirit guide or anthropomorphized deity assigned it to us, and we didn't discuss it among ourselves before coming here, rather our deaths released astral imprints (the "final form" at death of the ego) that tethered us to each other that magnetically drew us back (and will likely do so again unless it's resolved, that is the pattern changed), like being caught a bit in a web.

posted September 29, 2014 09:47 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Koho:
I don't believe in free will. I concluded awhile ago if we are made up of energy and the universe and its energy is governed by physics and mathematics then everything is going as it is meant to go ever since the big bang or whatever was at the beginning. Every decision is based upon an action before it.

If if we do choose our natal charts as spirits or whatever it can't be in this universe as we are bound to its laws.

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I used to believe the same thing, but then I look at things this way:

The parts of us that are governed are the parts of us that make us feel security, the energies, dynamics, people, situations that we know - whether they are good or bad. And so develops a certain type of attunement (refer to "astrology, psychology and the four elements by Stephen arroyo) which the sum of these attunement is our birth chart. What makes humans different from other animals on earth is that we have the ability to break out of the pre-conditioned attunements, and it is through exercising our free will that we do this.

posted September 29, 2014 11:39 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Koho:
I don't believe in free will. I concluded awhile ago if we are made up of energy and the universe and its energy is governed by physics and mathematics then everything is going as it is meant to go ever since the big bang or whatever was at the beginning. Every decision is based upon an action before it.

If if we do choose our natal charts as spirits or whatever it can't be in this universe as we are bound to its laws.

---

posted September 30, 2014 12:07 AM            

I can see what Tempura is saying but it is hard to discuss something so unknowable. I just see the exercising of free will indistinguishable from the "causal chain" Piscean described. It's impossible to know if the choice you made was independent or whether it really is just based on everything before it.

There's just so many factors at play for me to really believe we truly decide independent actions. Factors as little as someone taking up space 1 foot to your left on the side walk forcing you to walk right and bump into someone that ends up burning themselves with coffee or you having to buy them coffee. Or as big as a childhood trauma totally independent of your own 'choices'.

Or maybe that bridge that was built 50 years ago that inclines you to go a certain route over another causing you to not meet a person had that bridge not existed. So many actions and reactions.

Certainly a fun discussion though.

We could also put it in astrological terms. Let's say a person has a Mars square Uranus aspect in a sign that gives them quite a temper. After sometime, this person has learned to control their temper. Is it because they exercised free will to learn how to grow? Or is it because in their progressed chart their Mars moved away from its Natal position weakening or removing the Mars sq Uranus position?

As for Pisceans post, I think my answer to your question is whether or not we can account for the cause doesn't matter. I think it doesn't matter because there is one thing we do know - there is an effect. The effect is everything around us so whatever the cause is we know there is one but truly knowing what it is is currently impossible. And we do know there are predictable patterns governing our existence so its hard for me to imagine us separate from those governments. For free will to exist in such a universe I think a religious case has to be made.

Outside a religious case it is hard to argue - in my opinion of course - that us humans are an exception to the laws that govern all.

I've actually came to believe in astrology not through a spiritual sense but a scientific sense. It was my coursework in astronomy and physics that made me believe that if it were possible - humanly possible - there could someday be a mathematical model that shows the patterns of astrology can be replicated. But the amount of work involved makes it nearly impossible but that astrology does a great job at showing the patterns using the clockwork universe aspects of the planets moving in their patterns to correlate with human personality.

posted September 30, 2014 12:38 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Koho:

Certainly a fun discussion though.

We could also put it in astrological terms. Let's say a person has a Mars square Uranus aspect in a sign that gives them quite a temper. After sometime, this person has learned to control their temper. Is it because they exercised free will to learn how to grow? Or is it because in their progressed chart their Mars moved away from its Natal position weakening or removing the Mars sq Uranus position?

As for Pisceans post, I think my answer to your question is whether or not we can account for the cause doesn't matter. I think it doesn't matter because there is one thing we do know - there is an effect. The effect is everything around us so whatever the cause is we know there is one but truly knowing what it is is currently impossible. And we do know there are predictable patterns governing our existence so its hard for me to imagine us separate from those governments. For free will to exist in such a universe I think a religious case has to be made.

Outside a religious case it is hard to argue - in my opinion of course - that us humans are an exception to the laws that govern all.

---

Beautiful post. I love all your points and your method of thinking. I love having discussions with people like you. What are your placements? Though I have to admit, I disagree with a few things, I still enjoyed reading what you had to say.

The incapacity to account for a cause is important because it puts into question the scientific method as a tool we use to make sense of the empirical world via experimentation. How can we have faith in a system incapable of explaining the basis of the methodology by which it strictly abides? Knowing the cause is important because it changes how we begin to understand the nature of existence and our role in it. God could have been the cause and this does not negate the possibility that determinism could still exist. Predetermination could be understood within God's power but due to our understanding of religious narrative, we are aware that should God be the creator, we have free will.

What pushes me to argue for free will, is that we are self-asserting and self-legislating beings. How can I create within myself a cause and yet be determined? If it is not I who is in control of my own capacity to act as an agent then to whom do I ascribe this power? With your example of spilling the coffee and the bridge, I understand your point. There are certain matters, out of our absolute control, that contribute to our destiny in a way that seems determined. However, this is all due to the grand scheme of causal networks by which we are perpetually affected by. I may not have control over the fact that, because someone was aligned in a way that impeded my walking path, I spilled coffee on someone by bumping into them but I do have control over whether I buy them coffee or not, how sincerely I apologize, where I try to help them or not. There can be a deterministic explanation for the actions I choose but for me to prompt an action within myself without an external cause is within the domain of free will.

I believe there is a philosophy that believe we are both determined and with free will. It's quite interesting... Even that seems to me the most fitting though it can be quite contradictory.

posted September 30, 2014 01:44 AM            

But, in this response I think your question applies, "How can we have an effect to which there is no accountable cause?"

It makes me think of Neptune. How it was mathematically predicted before observed. That's a very beautiful thing but also unfulfilling. We knew it was there due to its effect. And certainly there were tribulations in answering those effects as there was the period where Neptune could not be proven to be there in tangible way. So for me, while I can acknowledge that the dismissal of the cause does hurt the integrity of a system, like Neptune's discovery, the effect can be the answer. But of course it isn't a fulfilling answer because only the discovery of the cause can give the methodology its full integrity.

So for me, as much as I'd like to know the cause, I tend to focus on the effect. It is why I'm fairly staunch about my position. All I can see are the effects and all I can deduce at the moment is no free will. But very well, a revelation of cause can change that at any moment!

And again, correct. Whether it is justification in a religious nature, or scientific postulating, God doesn't necessarily negate a predetermined universe as much as that could imply an existence of free will.

I see your counterargument about the coffee scene. And I hear your question about who has the power of agency. I think the answer to your question of agency is that it belongs to all and everything that came before you.

When I see your rationalization about choosing whether you reimburse them, or whether you apologize, in my paradigm I don't see choice. I see the illusion of choice. You're going to react to that scenario precisely according to who you are. In the scenario you may choose to apologize and later you may question yourself and wonder why you chose to apologize. You chose to apologize because it is in your personality to do so.Now what if it happens again and the 2nd time you choose not to apologize? Perhaps you 'chose' not to apologize because of the previous thought created by the first time you encountered this similar scenario.

Certainly you are an agent of action as any human is. But the great determination of these actions to me isn't the agent. Your set personality in your natal chart, with its calculable progressives and transits and the causal chains of experiences that stem to that present moment all the way back to the beginning is going where it is going. It is acting through you but it happened the way it was going to happen.

It's like my bridge proposition. Someone reading this post may realize they very well do take the same bridge to work every day. Tomorrow they do not. Our discussion at this moment caused this person to go a new route and that 'decision' will create other outcomes. You can argue this person can decide not to do that but there will be causal effects to make them not do that just like any else. And then there are the factors that caused you and me to discuss this very thing that caused that person to not take the bridge. The endless factors that made you take up astrology, and the ones that drove me to do it. And the part of our personalities that made us seek out to share our knowledge in this public forum for others to read and be influenced by. For me, I began reading about sun signs at the age of 14 after being on AOL and discussing in instant messaging with a friend about her sign. I got on AOL because a teacher told my grandfather the internet is a wonderful thing. And it goes back. That teacher thought the internet a good thing for her students because of experiences.

Woo, I'm tired! Sorry if I'm long winded. As I write this it's sort of thinking out loud so the thoughts aren't too filtered. I hope I made some interesting points but I never feel as I've expressed my thoughts accurately enough. Never been much of a proof reader.

My placements are Scorpio Sun, Cap Moon, Taurus ASC, Scorp Merc, Venus Lib, and Mars Aries.

Someone did me the kindness of looking at my natal chart so if you're interested the image is here but you may learn more about me than you ever care to :P What are your placements?
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/013166.html