posted February 15, 2015 09:43 PM            

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Originally posted by Regulus18:

The man did not abuse Ana. Enough already. Anytime you provide a contract to someone letting them know what will happen and give them the opportunity to remove the things they don't like...you are not abusing them because the KNOW full well what they are entering into.

Now to deal with this misogynistic argument some of you are trying to build. How on EARTH is this a misogynistic film? If you watched the movie you would see that this poor 8th house/Scorpio man was abused by a female dominatrix at age 15. This in turn alters his sexual nature and causes him to like something completely alternative to what most of us expect from sex.

Cut the crap people. Cancer/Leo signing off.

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Agreed.

Read the book or watch the movie before blowing a gasket.

posted February 15, 2015 10:22 PM            

From what I've read and heard about it...
His character seems like an adult male - with serious mental issues.
Her character seems like a little girl who is very clueless about her sexuality and what she is getting herself into.

It's also, as others have said, a complete misrepresentation of bdsm relationships in general.
Most women who choose to explore their sexuality in this way - do so willingly. They are not naive little girls. They are self-aware and they are enjoying it.

The dynamic between the characters is extremely cliché - I might as well watch "He's just not that into you" all over again, while googling S&M pics - and I'm sure I would get the same overall effect! lol
That or "The little red riding hood"... same thing really. Poor virginal, puritan little thing attacked by the big bad wolf.

posted February 15, 2015 10:24 PM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
It's misogynistic because of its inherent hatred and contempt of women, from mothers to lovers. The fact that it was written by a woman doesn't change that. And neither does the claim that he was abused by a female dominatrix, especially as that's a fictional portrayal of women (and also misunderstanding of BDSM) and just one more way women who aren't abused, dominated, and even raped are evil. Even in real life it would still be a form of misogyny.

Want details of how its misogynistic? I've got a ton of them. But you don't want them, especially if you're a Cancer/Leo.

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posted February 15, 2015 10:25 PM            

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How on earth was this film inherently misogynistic?

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^ Oh Take a gender studies class and be done with it.

posted February 15, 2015 10:26 PM            

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Originally posted by Odette:
Well if the female character was portrayed more like a regular 20-something year old *woman*... and less like a naive teenage girl who is a virgin and believes in Disney-like "true love" --- then I wouldn't call it abuse

From what I've read and heard about it...
His character seems like an adult male - with serious mental issues.
Her character seems like a little girl who is very clueless about her sexuality and what she is getting herself into.

It's also, as others have said, a complete misrepresentation of bdsm relationships in general.
Most women who choose to explore their sexuality in this way - do so willingly. They are not naive little girls. They are self-aware and they are enjoying it.

The dynamic between the characters is extremely cliché - I might as well watch "He's just not that into you" all over again, while googling S&M pics - and I'm sure I would get the same overall effect! lol
That or "The little red riding hood"... same thing really. Poor virginal, puritan little thing attacked by the big bad wolf.

I am both bored and disgusted by this kind of plot, so I won't be reading the book or watching the movie... I've heard enough about it as it is.

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posted February 16, 2015 01:20 AM            

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Originally posted by Odette:
^ Oh Take a gender studies class and be done with it.

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posted February 16, 2015 02:10 AM            

Btw, for those who honestly don't know, here's the difference between actual BDSM and abuse, a difference ignored for the story. That also deals with how this story glorifies abuse (as opposed to BDSM).

That aside, the message of this story is that women enjoy abuse or at least deserve it (for the crime of a mother all women must pay)...and she acts like she can change him when she can't, that is his behavior is HER fault. There have even been new age threads on LL with that message, that if a woman is beaten or if he cheats or otherwise isn't perfect then it's her own energy that made him do it, he was helpless before it, it's all her fault, the power is hers, even when she wants him to be dominant. That may work for some messed up gurus and in the romance genre, but not real life. This is more subtle than overt, but still relevant, and plays into how a woman is abused deserved it (and going by how every woman not a lesbian wants him, all women deserve it).

It also depicts women as mind boggling shallow and vain who are better off without choice (it's for their own good to be submissive as Christian himself says, much like how some like to say blacks would be better off on slave plantations), and the portrayal of Ana certainly seems to justify that. He punishes her for the most trivial reasons, punishment to which she neither consents and is afraid of. He breaks into her home and rapes her for rejecting him and it's presented as sexy (when in real life it's a terrible crime and would also serve as a threat saying their relationship lasted as long as he wants it to--but the misogynistic message is that women both deserve and enjoy it!). He punishes her for not letting him finger her under the table while at dinner with his parents. She depicts fear and resistance though she likes it when he--against her consent--inflicts the pain and suffering on her without the slightest hint of respect. How the hell do men and women get raised so that they think such abuse is romantic?

If done in real life he could go to jail or prison for that. But like a classic victim Ana is the one who feels bad for even touching him (despite the forced sex and beatings he dishes out) in addition to scared. And that his abuse and contempt for ALL women is justified because of his "crack ***** " of a mother. And unfortunately there are men who are cruel, violent, controlling, and threatening as Christian Grey...and they're terrifying and dangerous with women fleeing them, some living in fear with a gun in easy reach as they know the restraining order won't be enough to stop him.

That said, Ana is such a poor depiction of a woman that it's hard to feel sorry for her. Pity, yes, but damn...I hate knowing that there really are women that pathetic in this world and that they're pretty common due to the psychological abuse they were subjected to in childhood on up. But of course that just aids in the justification for abusing women as Christian does. What's particularly distressing is that this story...and many women who say this is what women want...give the green light to abusers to act as Christian Grey.

posted February 16, 2015 02:12 AM            

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Originally posted by Regulus18:
Disney? How so? She was at a bar throwing up before Scorpio came and picked her up and took her home and transformed her. This Virgo/Piscean/Cancer woman wasn't innocent.

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Woah, woah, woaaaaaaah. Well, I hate to stoke up the flames here, but I just couldn't resist...

First of all, drinking alcohol does not equate with being able to have sex, much less BDSM which is a very specific kind which places both individuals in a vulnerable position. Not only that, but the book specifically states that Anastasia is very sexually inexperienced- which emphasizes the manipulative aspect.

As quoted in this post, which phrases it very well: http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/2byz2l/many_women_do_not_agree_with_me_on_this_subject

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"BDSM is a community that believes in safety & comfort. Consent is always necessary, and partners take care of each other. After acts and roleplays, partners comfort each other to help transition out of that zone. FSOG does not include any of this. Mr. Grey gives Anastasia (a then-virgin) an ultimatum; to sign a contract or leave. She is sexually inexperienced (being a virgin) and he manipulates that to push her boundaries to make it seem like the sexually violent things he is doing to her are okay. There are instances where after an act, he is mad at her for being upset, but does not comfort her. He uses alcohol to sway her consent - this is by law rape. There is also an instance where she uses the safe word, yet he continues. That is consent being retracted, and Christian ignores the retraction of consent. That is sexual assault."

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^^Just because there's a contract for BDSM that does not mean that the dominant one is able to use the submissive one to however s/he wishes. There has to be consent given along EVERY step of the way. And just because he does not outright slap her in the face does not mean his behavior not abusive- abuse comes in many different forms, unfortunately and here it's more implicit than anything else.

quote:

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"Those are not the only problematic instances. Anastasia begins to hide things in fear of Christian's anger. He becomes jealous and easily angered. Anastasia fears for her safety. Experts have even matched her behavior with that of abused women, in accordance with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's description of partner violence."

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Actually, there have been reported cases of deaths caused by couples trying to replicate 50 Shades of Grey scenarios:
e.g. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/swedish-man-accused-of-killing-girlfriend-in-fifty-shades-of-greystyle-sadomasochistic-sex-game-8470118.html

There's a very real danger that comes from people romanticizing BDSM and these abusive scenarios. Btw, just because a person had an abusive childhood/traumatic accident does not give them a free pass for inflicting similar abuse onto others. They should not be excused, and should face the consequences of their actions.

No hard feelings meant, just trying to inform.
-From a Scorpio w/ an 8th house stellium

posted February 16, 2015 01:56 PM            

You seem to think that all this is an over-reaction to a piece of fiction.

However, there are 2 elements here that I think should be taken seriously, regardless of your personal stance on what abuse is or isn't.

1. A lot of women who had suffered actual abuse (physical and/or emotional) have recognised the same patterns in the behaviour of the characters in the book, and have therefore voiced their concerns. Check out this lady for example - she has suffered a number of abusive relationships, and is currently a therapist ( https://50shadesofabuse.wordpress.com/about-me/ ). One example out of many, and you'll see that she has thoroughly read the book before 'blowing the gasket'. I think at the very least we should all respect what these abuse survivors are saying, and consider their valid position on what this book claims to be. It's presented and sold as kinky romance after all.

2. A lot of teenagers and inexperienced young women who do not associate these behaviour patterns with abuse, but are fascinated with the book and/or movie, will actively seek out unsafe encounters and situations in order to re-enact this. The example from socialgraffiti above is terrifying. But even if it never comes to a fatal end, entering such a relationship with inexperience and without enough information, can be deeply damaging nonetheless.

posted February 16, 2015 08:08 PM            

I could quibble with a lot of scenes of a sexual nature and I'm tempted to think the author must be very inexperienced with sex or at least nothing more than pure vanilla/missionary (not that I buy Ana's uber-virginal nature, though even allowing that such is the case then she has no basis of comparison to say how awesome Christian is compared to others does she?). It's also extremely misinformed about BDSM which is probably going to create drama and problems for the subculture now (and I know at least a few are already extremely annoyed, though mostly for equating doms with psycho jerks like Christian, or subs with Ana).

All in all it's a minor point, however.

posted February 16, 2015 11:25 PM            

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Originally posted by Odette:
That character is an abusive sociopath.

People who are into bdsm --> Mars/Pluto

People who are abusive sociopaths as well as happen to be into bdsm--> Mars/Pluto + Suffering from serious psychological illness.
http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Non-Sexual-Reason-People-Boycotting-Fifty-Shades -Grey-69590.html

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posted February 18, 2015 03:43 PM            

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Originally posted by Odette:
^ Definitely...............
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.
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Not.

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So what do you think his placements may be?

I just don't see him as a Scorpio sun what so ever. Maybe a Libra or a Taurus. Scorpio is not known for its sensuality. Also, he has done no stinging.

I think that a lot of people have forgotten that Neptune can play a key role to Christian's lifestyle. Neptune can alter a person's perception of reality and make them do the wrong things. They are kind of like bootleg Pluto people, but without the intensity.
Christian is not intense at all.

posted February 18, 2015 04:26 PM            

Christian's birthday is 6/18/83 Detroit, MI
Ana's birthday is 9/10/89 Montesano, WA

posted February 18, 2015 05:32 PM            

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Originally posted by LiesLilithsaidtouranus:
So what do you think his placements may be?

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Some people believe astrology can predict mental illness. I'm not exactly in that camp.
So I don't feel comfortable guessing what placements might make Christian Grey abusive and a sociopath.
There are people who engage in criminal activity, including rape and murder, in all signs. There are people who suffer from sociopathy and other cluster B disorders in all signs.

posted February 18, 2015 05:48 PM            

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Originally posted by Barbiegirl19:
I've yet to understand the obsession with this fictional character, the series in general. It's beyond mediocre. Not worth getting upset over or writing lengthy responses. I read all 3 books and although the first was the worst, the 2nd was meh, I did like the last book. I don't plan on seeing any of the movies.

Christian's birthday is 6/18/83 Detroit, MI
Ana's birthday is 9/10/89 Montesano, WA

There is an entire 50 Shades Wiki. You can easily plug the birth dates and birth locations in Astro and you'd at least have a visual of what their charts look like. In my opinion both of their Suns were obvious. I'm convinced authors read into astrology lol. Every book that I've read and learned the character's birthday, they totally were their Sun.

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posted February 18, 2015 06:09 PM            

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Originally posted by Odette:
LoL A Gemini? That's unexpected. I'll have a look at the chart!

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The astrology of this guy doesn't really matter. I mean...it's fiction. He's not a real living breathing person why are we conducting charts for this guy and Ana?

posted February 19, 2015 02:18 PM            

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Originally posted by Odette:
LoL A Gemini? That's unexpected. I'll have a look at the chart!

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Really, I thought it was painfully obvious. I've literally LOLed at the people here and online who've deemed him as being a Scorpio or Capricorn. Why must every "made" male always be a Cap or a Scorpio lol.

posted February 19, 2015 02:54 PM            

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Originally posted by Barbiegirl19:
I can see how he'd be viewed as sociopathic however that's Gemini in the flesh for ya.

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posted February 19, 2015 03:13 PM            

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Originally posted by Faith:
Not really.

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