posted June 07, 2015 12:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by astra7:
This is so cute.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4aTw-zEJZ8

---

Nice!

Pretty good illustration,too!

posted June 07, 2015 12:58 PM            

I have Mars in 6th very close to the 7th(so I read it as being in the 7th actually) and Pluto in the 7th.

My sister has Pluto in 4th and I live with her.So I think I know what he means.

Sometimes I can be happy but when I am upset,the energy is clear from the get go.

posted June 07, 2015 11:26 PM            

Glad you like

With that in mind (the bold), do you think you actively seek out

its (DSC) qualities (whether consciously or unconsciously)?

Or that it just happens by design or fate or the natural

order of things?

Or.. third option? lol

~

Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
So I see a connection here between DSC and Jung's Anima/Animus concept.

---------

Interesting.. how so?

posted June 08, 2015 12:18 AM            

Shadow is best seen in the horoscope as the dark side of the Moon, and a function of stealth painful memories and bestial urges that we do not represent honestly to ourselves or others. Remember, shadows are created when light interacts with materiality, with shadows always drawn leading away from the Sun (honesty, understanding, strength).

Think of the Moon being only fully interpreted and understood in the light of the Sun. These are the conscious and integrated qualities reflected in the Moon's 'face' which is part of the face we present to others. When my Sun in Taurus conjunct Saturn shined upon the face of the Moon in Capricorn (dwad of Taurus) at my birth, it created a resonance between them to bring out the qualities associated with both the Venusian and Saturnine elements inherent in the Sun's rays - and the Moon's in Capricorn. The shadow side will be the qualities of the flip side of that coin.

The shadow side will engage itself generally in line with the lesser developed qualities associated with the Moon sign, and with planets in conjunction/parallel with it, and with Pluto in our charts. Pluto is the other factor of the 'shadow', the unconscious that lies buried beneath the level of personal conscious recognition, as if waiting for fuller development of the soul to handle its inherent power (kundulini).

posted June 08, 2015 07:26 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
The quote at top of the thread regarding the 7th being a shadow part of ourselves we 'give' away is a contrived view of the 7th house that seems to veer from some pop psychology of codependency that assumes there is an ideal whole individual with no social/intimacy needs. It seems to treat Asc/1st house 'self' as opposed by DC/7th 'not self' or 'denied self.' People will still appear in our lives even if we are balanced and healthy and we will still enjoy relationships, commitment, intimacy. The 7th house functions as a natural extension of our own personalities, how we reach out. It need not be 'shadow' at all. It is meeting place.

[b]Shadow is best seen in the horoscope as the dark side of the Moon, and a function of stealth painful memories and bestial urges that we do not represent honestly to ourselves or others. Remember, shadows are created when light interacts with materiality, with shadows always drawn leading away from the Sun (honesty, understanding, strength).

Think of the Moon being only fully interpreted and understood in the light of the Sun. These are the conscious and integrated qualities reflected in the Moon's 'face' which is part of the face we present to others. When my Sun in Taurus conjunct Saturn shined upon the face of the Moon in Capricorn (dwad of Taurus) at my birth, it created a resonance between them to bring out the qualities associated with both the Venusian and Saturnine elements inherent in the Sun's rays - and the Moon's in Capricorn. The shadow side will be the qualities of the flip side of that coin.

The shadow side will engage itself generally in line with the lesser developed qualities associated with the Moon sign, and with planets in conjunction/parallel with it, and with Pluto in our charts. Pluto is the other factor of the 'shadow', the unconscious that lies buried beneath the level of personal conscious recognition, as if waiting for fuller development of the soul to handle its inherent power (kundulini).

[/B]

---

I think that's pretty much the shadow in one's chart, yeah: Pluto, dark Moon, and the "hidden" chart (duads, house chart)

It's interesting to notice however, the two dimensions of the Shadow concept: 1. the unconscious part of ourselves (as described by Jung and Freud) 2. our dark side.

These two concepts are somehow blurred, with psychoanalysts.

Our dark side, in my opinion, is the dark side of all aspects and planets; Pluto, being the ruler of underworld, rules our dark side, our demonic "face". But the concepts are meshed here as well, because Pluto also rules unconscious processes and the psychological dynamic between the two major layers of the psyche: unconscious/conscious.

"Shadow (psychology)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Jungian psychology, the shadow or "shadow aspect" may refer to (1) an unconscious aspect of the personality which the conscious ego does not identify in itself. Because one tends to reject or remain ignorant of the least desirable aspects of one's personality, the shadow is largely negative, or (2) the entirety of the unconscious, i.e., everything of which a person is not fully conscious. There are, however, positive aspects which may also remain hidden in one's shadow (especially in people with low self-esteem).[1] Contrary to a Freudian definition of shadow, therefore, the Jungian shadow can include everything outside the light of consciousness, and may be positive or negative. "Everyone carries a shadow," Jung wrote, "and the less it is embodied in the individual's conscious life, the blacker and denser it is."[2] It may be (in part) one's link to more primitive animal instincts,[3] which are superseded during early childhood by the conscious mind.

According to Jung, the shadow, in being instinctive and irrational, is prone to psychological projection, in which a perceived personal inferiority is recognised as a perceived moral deficiency in someone else. Jung writes that if these projections remain hidden, "The projection-making factor (the Shadow archetype) then has a free hand and can realize its object--if it has one--or bring about some other situation characteristic of its power." [4] These projections insulate and harm individuals by acting as a constantly thickening veil of illusion between the ego and the real world.

From one perspective, 'the shadow...is roughly equivalent to the whole of the Freudian unconscious';[5] and Jung himself asserted that 'the result of the Freudian method of elucidation is a minute elaboration of man's shadow-side unexampled in any previous age'.[6]

posted June 08, 2015 08:34 AM            

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posted June 08, 2015 01:15 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eirlys:
Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
Lovely thread
What I find interesting about Jung's Shadow concept and the DSC is not necessarily the fact that we are not aware of our DSC, but the fact that [b]we become aware of it only by interaction with others.
---------

Glad you like

With that in mind (the bold), do you think you actively seek out

its (DSC) qualities (whether consciously or unconsciously)?

Or that it just happens by design or fate or the natural

order of things?

Or.. third option? lol

~

Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
So I see a connection here between DSC and Jung's Anima/Animus concept.

---------

Interesting.. how so?

[/B]

---

I think the only part of the Shadow concept that can be related to the DSC is the fact that we only become fully aware of our relational needs and behavior by interacting with others. So it is an ongoing process of self-awareness and adjustment: adjustment to our true needs balancing those of others.

To answer your first question, I would say that first we react more or less automatically (our DSC behavior reflects not only our true core personality, but I am afraid much of it reflects relational patterns we were taught in childhood/early years). We tend to replicate those, in the first part of our relational life, for good or bad. But then, at some point, we become aware of our true needs, and those of the world, and that's when we start to exercise our DSC consciously: we begin to purposefully practice in our behavior and seek in others relationships according to our values and our true needs.

posted June 08, 2015 02:08 PM            

People will still appear in our lives even if we are balanced and healthy and we will still enjoy relationships, commitment, intimacy. The 7th house functions as a natural extension of our own personalities, how we reach out. It need not be 'shadow' at all. It is meeting place.

-------

This view is extreme.

I hardly think it reaches into the mire of co-dependcy-- much less, its

resolution in the polar opposite: a person devoid of human frailty, needing

no physical or mental interaction from another.

-

The OP supposes characteristics we already possess, but deny (or even believe

we lack), are played out via the Other, if they are not dealt with (i.e.

incorporated into one's personality/self) properly.

Dana Gerhardt breaks it down, nicely: 7th House

Anything more is a bit presumptuous.

It's merely one opinion (and a fairly common one, at that), among many.

I'm not sure I agree with the last part, either.

People will appear in our lives because it's unavoidable.

That we will "... enjoy relationships, commitment, intimacy" is guaranteed nowhere.

------------------

I assume what follows is in response to this:
-

Originally posted by Eirlys:
Jung also said

'Everyone carries a shadow... '
-

So the question is, if all can be accounted for in the chart,

'where is yours (shadow, projections)?' and how would that be

determined?

------------------

Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
Shadow is best seen in the horoscope as the dark side of the Moon, and a function of stealth painful memories and bestial urges that we do not represent honestly to ourselves or others.

Remember, shadows are created when light interacts with materiality, with shadows always drawn leading away from the Sun (honesty, understanding, strength).

Think of the Moon being only fully interpreted and understood in the light of the Sun. These are the conscious and integrated qualities reflected in the Moon's 'face' which is part of the face we present to others. When my Sun in Taurus conjunct Saturn shined upon the face of the Moon in Capricorn (dwad of Taurus) at my birth, it created a resonance between them to bring out the qualities associated with both the Venusian and Saturnine elements inherent in the Sun's rays - and the Moon's in Capricorn. The shadow side will be the qualities of the flip side of that coin.

The shadow side will engage itself generally in line with the lesser developed qualities associated with the Moon sign, and with planets in conjunction/parallel with it, and with Pluto in our charts. Pluto is the other factor of the 'shadow', the unconscious that lies buried beneath the level of personal conscious recognition....

-------

You believe our Shadow lies in the Moon; its 'dark side.'

Fair enough, and illustration noted-- but it's isn't clear how you

arrived at this conclusion... that the luminaries, alone, are the

embodiment of self.

Well... the luminaries and Pluto.

'Pluto is... the unconscious that lies buried beneath the level of

personal conscious recognition'-- this seems odd to me, with Pluto

being generational.

Unless you mean it serves as a catalyst of sorts, due its transformational

nature?

posted June 08, 2015 08:16 PM            

Thanks

And I agree that ideally our partner should not only have similarities,

but differences that compliment our personality, as well.

.

Regarding anima/animus and the DSC-7th--

I understand where you're coming from, and I do think that is where the

complimentary aspects of another's personality would come in (DSC), as you

said, to 'complete us.'

And in theory, I agree... makes sense.

My issue with anima/animus is its relation to the 'collective conscious'

For one, I don't think the 'collective conscious' is authentic-- but even

if it were, it feels very 12th House-y (for lack of a better way to put it).

Unless you were using it (anima/mus) for strictly illustrative purpose?

I hate that there's no benefit of inflection on forums lol... harder to read

peoples intent.

posted June 11, 2015 06:53 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eirlys:
Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
[b] Actually, I see a much stronger connection between the DSC and Jung's Anima/Animus concept rather than his Shadow concept. I see the DSC as an extended Anima/Animus concept (as per Jung): through our DSC we seek the other who completes us. To me, this is a combination of similar and complementary traits. Metaphorically speaking, the DSC is how we treat others and expect to be treated (similar traits) but also what opposes our ASC (complementary traits). I tend to believe our ideal partner is a perfect blending of similarity/complementarity.
-------

Thanks

And I agree that ideally our partner should not only have similarities,

but differences that compliment our personality, as well.

.

Regarding anima/animus and the DSC-7th--

I understand where you're coming from, and I do think that is where the

complimentary aspects of another's personality would come in (DSC), as you

said, to 'complete us.'

And in theory, I agree... makes sense.

My issue with anima/animus is its relation to the 'collective conscious'

For one, I don't think the 'collective conscious' is authentic-- but even

if it were, it feels very 12th House-y (for lack of a better way to put it).

Unless you were using it (anima/mus) for strictly illustrative purpose?

I hate that there's no benefit of inflection on forums lol... harder to read

peoples intent.

[/B]

---

We discuss, until our intentions slip into the "conscious' I love this conversation.

posted June 12, 2015 05:54 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yanmorg:
This is a very interesting thread except I think it should be related to hard aspects and projecting those aspects onto others instead of relating it to the 7th house/ Descendant.

For example, I have moon square uranus natally despite being extremely Plutonian and Saturian so I naturally wanted to dismiss that Uranian part of me because it did not fit into the idealistic part of who I wanted to be (as you stated). So I inevitably attract unavailable, emotionally distant men ( which I do).

Reading this post definitely made that whole "projection" concept clear.

---

Could it be both?

I've also heard that a 1st House Neptune placement can cause

people to project their ideal vision of what a woman (or man)

should be onto the Neptune person.

Marilyn Monroe, who had that placement, was given as an example:

Neptune in 1st, with a wide conjunction to the ASC... I think

it's fair to say she may have received some projections from

men, that didn't bear any resemblance to the woman she was, off

camera.

posted June 12, 2015 08:35 PM            

... I am not sure what you meant lol You meant the "collective unconscious"? I'm curious why you say it's not "authentic", you don't believe the concept or you meant something else? It is 12th housey-ish indeed.

No, I meant what I said.

Nevertheless, Jung spoke of the collective unconscious,

didn't he-- not collective consciousness :P

Very interested, though not terribly familiar, obviously--

hence the curiosity.

The concept is real enough, I imagine-- but most of what I've

read on the collective (un)conscious(ness) has been somewhat

esoteric in nature*, and often coupled with the term 'cosmic'--

Ex.: 'There are innumerable kinds of collective consciousness:

atomic, molecular, aggregate, world, planetary, systemic,

and after these, different kinds of cosmic consciousness.'

-laurency.com

'We are connected to one another through the Collective Consciousness... '

-in5d.com

--

... perhaps it is different from Jung's concept.

I don't know-- I assumed they were one and the same.

---

* Sidenote: I was job-sharing with a man who believed himself to be a

Lyra or a Lyran... or something (Cap sun, Cap moon)--

and soon after, I met yet another who said he was a lightworker (Sco, Gem)--

so I did a bit of research.

What I gleaned from the material was that it isn't a true representation

of the collective-- it seems to be more of a tool to manipulate people,

and to siphon their energy [by whomever (or whatever) has access to it].

Imo, anyway.

posted June 13, 2015 07:11 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eirlys:
Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
[b]... I am not sure what you meant lol You meant the "collective unconscious"? I'm curious why you say it's not "authentic", you don't believe the concept or you meant something else? It is 12th housey-ish indeed.
-------

No, I meant what I said.

Nevertheless, Jung spoke of the collective unconscious,

didn't he-- not collective consciousness :P

Very interested, though not terribly familiar, obviously--

hence the curiosity.

The concept is real enough, I imagine-- but most of what I've

read on the collective (un)conscious(ness) has been somewhat

esoteric in nature*, and often coupled with the term 'cosmic'--

Ex.: 'There are innumerable kinds of collective consciousness:

atomic, molecular, aggregate, world, planetary, systemic,

and after these, different kinds of cosmic consciousness.'

-laurency.com

'We are connected to one another through the Collective Consciousness... '

-in5d.com

--

... perhaps it is different from Jung's concept.

I don't know-- I assumed they were one and the same.

---

* Sidenote: I was job-sharing with a man who believed himself to be a

Lyra or a Lyran... or something (Cap sun, Cap moon)--

and soon after, I met yet another who said he was a lightworker (Sco, Gem)--

so I did a bit of research.

What I gleaned from the material was that it isn't a true representation

of the collective-- it seems to be more of a tool to manipulate people,

and to siphon their energy [by whomever (or whatever) has access to it].

Imo, anyway.

[/B]

---

It is the same concept, you are right.

To me, the collective unconscious theory is Jung's most important "discovery".

The most important part of it, perhaps, is the idea that human "archetypes" are common in all cultures, they belong to a "common soul" with similar myths and imagery.
Jung was the first to identify archetypal imagery in dreams (for people with very different backgrounds) as being a sign of us belonging to a collective consciousness.

posted June 16, 2015 05:39 PM            

It is the same concept, you are right.

To me, the collective unconscious theory is Jung's most important "discovery".

The most important part of it, perhaps, is the idea that human "archetypes" are common in all cultures, they belong to a "common soul" with similar myths and imagery.
Jung was the first to identify archetypal imagery in dreams (for people with very different backgrounds) as being a sign of us belonging to a collective consciousness.

-------

I almost missed this.

So sorry-- I do appreciate the response.

And that pic may qualify for its own thread.

---

Anyway...

I guess everyone has a different perspective.

I would see this as evidence, not so much of a 'common soul',

but of a common source-- we are all made of the same stuff.

And as such, we respond similarly to our common life-experiences.

However, I think so many of our myths are similar because they're

founded in truth.

Dragons, floods, demi-gods, vampires, shape-shifters... Atlantis.

*dons foil hat*

Why not?

posted June 16, 2015 07:53 PM            

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posted June 17, 2015 01:26 AM            

7H Pisces Moon, DSC Pisces, Neptune in the 4H.
http://youtu.be/vt1Pwfnh5pc

-------

I have that square, exact.

But Neptune's in H7-- Pisces moon in H11

---

Lou Reed, also Pisces

https://youtu.be/WZseqKBMq4c

posted June 17, 2015 11:26 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ami Anne:
Hekate shows the Shadow side. That which touches Hekate, we do not want to face.

---

Hekate = Crossroads

That's what I've read, anyway.

Care to elaborate?