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Author Topic:   Natal Saturn Pluto in Hard Aspect
fireopal09
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From: Dallas,TX, Us
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posted June 14, 2015 07:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fireopal09     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Peony commented on my Saturn/Pluto square in my chart on the Yod thread and I don't want to gum up that thread as I have 3 Yods .

From life experience and what I have read online, it is sooo true.


I've always had issues with authority. My frustration level is pretty much always through the roof.

I have control over my temper; but when those rare times I don't, I am a EF5 tornado. When faced with conflict, I ask myself "Is this moron worth prison?".

I have found myself time and time again facing the whole Pragmatism vs. Transformation dichotomy.

I feel as though I've lived multiple lives in this one.

Exhausted I am, but I never quit.

------------------
Claire
"When going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
-HST

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peony
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posted June 14, 2015 11:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for peony     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi fireopal09 ,

It sounds like you already know a great deal about the aspect, both from life experience and from reading, so I won't start from square one. I hope I'm not repeating what you already know.

What you often see with Saturn in the 11H is that the person doesn't blend in easily with the group or at all. There's a feeling or attitude of being set apart from the culture you were brought up or live in. I associate Saturn-Pluto with the Scapegoat Archetype/complex and the black sheep in psychology. There's great sensitivity and awareness of what Jungians call the "shadow," the dark underbelly within people and societies. The black sheep carries this unconscious shadow image within the family system. Historically, women and the dark races have carried this shadow image within the collective. I may be wrong about this, but with your South Node in the 11H conjunct Saturn, I wonder if it's possible that you've played the scapegoat role in the past and that there may be a fear associated with groups.

What ties in here is that according to your Human Design profile, you're "often blamed for mistakes that aren't even [yours], which can undermine [your] self-esteem and create an "us against them" mentality, feelings of shame, or an inferiority complex." If [you], and those around [you], understand that life is simply a constant and necessary process of trial and error, ending in discoveries that can then support a solid foundation, [you] can find strength in [your] journey. The focus must always be on what was learned from the experience, rather than the perception that [you] have made a mistake for which [you] are to be punished or ridiculed." Learning through discovery is key. Saturn-Pluto tends to harsh or extreme judgment, either of other people or of oneself, or both self and other people.

Saturn-Pluto indicates that you're likely very well aware of the pathologies within society or people around you, whose values you do not share. You see that "the emperor has no clothes," and this may have something to do with your issues with authority.

"You are here to be in charge of your own life, as well as a voice and person of authority in your field of expertise. Learning about relationships is a lifelong trial and error journey for you as you travel along, head down and absorbed in introspection, and yet bumping into people along the way."

You can read your full profile at this link:
http://humandesign.com/right-angle-profile-1-3

Here's another excerpt from Lynda Bunnell's book "The Definitive Book of Human Design," that I think is relevant to Saturn-Pluto in your chart:

"Your ability to judge, and your desire to correct, are expressed when you become dissatisfied with or feel the need to challenge something. When this perfecting or correcting process is made personal, however, and either turned inward or directed at others in relationship, the result is perceived as constant fault finding or a pervasive dissatisfaction with yourself and life in general. You will find yourself challenging your mother, father, teachers, governments, anyone and everything. No challenge is too great for logic to take on, or lies beyond your...need to perfect the pattern. When a critical evaluation bursts forth unbidden or uninvited, however, it usually takes the form of an endless and incessant stream of data, about what is wrong, that no one wants to hear. On the other hand, what brings you real joy is being asked to share as in, "Is there something wrong here?" Those who ask you are the people who are prepared for an open to your answer."

Does any of this resonate?

Whatever can connect you with joy would be of great value. What could that be? I was interacting with someone on one of the threads not too long ago and he told me he played the ukulele. Well, I found out that this instrument carries the vibration of joy, which is just what he needs and he intuitively picked up on that!



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fireopal09
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posted June 15, 2015 01:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for fireopal09     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You had me at "black sheep". I always thought my iconoclastic nature(sp?) was due to the Sun/Uranus conjunction.

Peony, it is late for me, but from what I skimmed; you are dead on. Thank you so much.

------------------
Claire
"When going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
-HST

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Doux Rêve
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posted June 15, 2015 01:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doux Rêve     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have Saturn in the 11H as well and tightly square Pluto in the 6H.

Don't know where to even start.

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Yanmorg
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posted June 15, 2015 11:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Yanmorg     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Saturn in the 9th square Pluto in the 6th.

Saturn squares my Sun, Mars, ASC as well.

Pluto conjuncts my Sun, Mars, and opposes my ASC.

My Sun and Mars oppose my ASC.

My mars is in Sagittarius right above the 7th house cusp.

I can relate to everything written.

I have issues with authority, especially with men.

My relationships are full of jealousy, criticism, etc.

I always feel depressed, gloomy, or trapped by one thing or another. If it isn't school, it's my job. I always feel closed in or forced to act a certain way too which is why I get so angry a lot of the time.

I have some deep seated anger inside myself.

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fireopal09
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posted June 15, 2015 07:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fireopal09     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Peony,

It ALL resonates. I've had to overcome insecurity instilled in me in childhood through ostracism by others.

All my perfectionism is directed inwards. That is soooo much fun. :-P

I am known to stick up for the underdog and I will call b.s. on someone trying to gaslight me or anyone I care about.

I do need to get back into a creative discipline. Saturn does rule my 5th house. I spent my childhood into my teen years in a ballet studio,and was really talented to the point I stood out; but I developed a very severe case of mono and have never regained my energy level. Then I concentrated on fine arts. I received a scholarship to one of the best and most expensive art schools in the U.S. I couldn't take it as the school didn't offer full scholarships and I didn't know about Pell grants. Life got in the way, and had to pretty much quit.

I need a creative outlet; but, right now my circumstances aren't allowing it. Saturn-Pluto at work.

I'm extremely lucky though. Manfriend of 5+ years has the trine and a very optimistic (<3 his Sagittarian Moon). I don't feel so alone.

Scorpio is my IC and my Saggi Venus and Scorpio Pallas conjunct it. The part of your comment about understanding the "shadow side" is dead on. It is instinctive. I consider it a gift as I have helped others as well as myself.

Pluto is in my 2nd house. Change is the only constant for this basic house. I've been rich and poor in wealth and self esteem over the years.

Life has rarely been smooth sailing with this aspect; however, I have tested my mettle, I'm not dead, and I gathered a great amount of wisdom which has benefited my daughter and those close to me.

Peony, I appreciate your time and insight. I'm in a tougher spot than usual and was letting my pessimism get the best of me, but your efforts have given me hope and the will to soldier on.

------------------
Claire
"When going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
-HST

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fireopal09
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posted June 15, 2015 07:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fireopal09     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Doux Rêve:
I have Saturn in the 11H as well and tightly square Pluto in the 6H.

Don't know where to even start.


I'd love to hear your story.

------------------
Claire
"When going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
-HST

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fireopal09
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posted June 15, 2015 08:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fireopal09     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Yanmorg:
Saturn in the 9th square Pluto in the 6th.

Saturn squares my Sun, Mars, ASC as well.

Pluto conjuncts my Sun, Mars, and opposes my ASC.

My Sun and Mars oppose my ASC.

Yanmorg, Saturn and Pluto are blowing up your chart. You've got to figure out how to work with this. Those two heavy hitters can create massive chaos. I liked how Peony said Saturn and Pluto seemed to work at cross purposes. Disciplined transformation.

We are all in the same boat here. I think we should start a Saturn/Pluto support group.

My mars is in Sagittarius right above the 7th house cusp.

I can relate to everything written.

I have issues with authority, especially with men.

My relationships are full of jealousy, criticism, etc.

I always feel depressed, gloomy, or trapped by one thing or another. If it isn't school, it's my job. I always feel closed in or forced to act a certain way too which is why I get so angry a lot of the time.

I have some deep seated anger inside myself.


------------------
Claire
"When going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
-HST

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fireopal09
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posted June 15, 2015 08:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fireopal09     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Aww dang, Mercury Rx ate my post to Yanmorg.


------------------
Claire
"When going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
-HST

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peony
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posted June 15, 2015 10:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for peony     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by fireopal09:
Peony,

It ALL resonates. I've had to overcome insecurity instilled in me in childhood through ostracism by others.

All my perfectionism is directed inwards. That is soooo much fun. :-P

I am known to stick up for the underdog and I will call b.s. on someone trying to gaslight me or anyone I care about.

I do need to get back into a creative discipline. Saturn does rule my 5th house. I spent my childhood into my teen years in a ballet studio,and was really talented to the point I stood out; but I developed a very severe case of mono and have never regained my energy level. Then I concentrated on fine arts. I received a scholarship to one of the best and most expensive art schools in the U.S. I couldn't take it as the school didn't offer full scholarships and I didn't know about Pell grants. Life got in the way, and had to pretty much quit.

I need a creative outlet; but, right now my circumstances aren't allowing it. Saturn-Pluto at work.

I'm extremely lucky though. Manfriend of 5+ years has the trine and a very optimistic (<3 his Sagittarian Moon). I don't feel so alone.

Scorpio is my IC and my Saggi Venus and Scorpio Pallas conjunct it. The part of your comment about understanding the "shadow side" is dead on. It is instinctive. I consider it a gift as I have helped others as well as myself.

Pluto is in my 2nd house. Change is the only constant for this basic house. I've been rich and poor in wealth and self esteem over the years.

Life has rarely been smooth sailing with this aspect; however, I have tested my mettle, I'm not dead, and I gathered a great amount of wisdom which has benefited my daughter and those close to me.

Peony, I appreciate your time and insight. I'm in a tougher spot than usual and was letting my pessimism get the best of me, but your efforts have given me hope and the will to soldier on.


fireopal, it is my great pleasure. I am so glad you have Manfriend with you and wish you the very best!

As for a creative outlet, beginning in November, Uranus will oppose Uranus and Neptune will be conjunct your Moon.

I see Uranus as an equal of and counterweight to Saturn-Pluto and in your chart is strengthened by its conjunction to the sun. I think the Uranus opposition to natal Uranus is going to be a creative period for you. I'm looking at your Venus-Neptune and Pisces Moon.

Also, your progressed Sun will be conjunct natal Venus in your 4H beginning around this time next year!

And, beginning next week, a Jupiter transit to your ASC begins and Jupiter will be in your 1H during the above transit and progression.

So, it looks like you're coming into a bright period in the days ahead.

p.s. If you'd like to see what your Human Design chart reveals, SaturnFan has a thread up on it. I find HD compliments astrology but also has its own unique insights to offer.

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peony
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posted June 15, 2015 10:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for peony     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by fireopal09:
I'd love to hear your story.

I would as well, that is, if you want to share.

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Doux Rêve
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posted June 16, 2015 08:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doux Rêve     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm not sure how exactly this aspect plays out, because it's part of a T-square (so there are many energies at play).

All I know is that both Pluto and Saturn are fundamentally important in my chart/life - Pluto rules my Scorpio stellium (Sun, Mercury, Mars, and well Pluto itself) and Saturn rules my 9H and 10H, and is the highest point in my chart; it also aspects every personal planet in my chart (except Mercury, but they're parallel) and it squares my Scorpio planets (again, except Mercury).


I had to change my living environment quite often when I was a child - one big move in particular was very stressful to me - we moved countries and my family was dissolved (only my mother was with me, not my father).

So I was feeling alienated and very insecure and shy; and I think that left a huge imprint on my ability to feel safe and welcome in social situations (Saturn in the 11H).

To this day I still feel uncomfortable in friendships, and associations of all kind. I feel different from people, like I have a different understanding of life and different interests and opinions in general. But mainly, I just feel defective in a fundamental way and like others can see right through me.

When I was a teenager especially, I was a hermit and would rarely ever go out because I thought "people were uninteresting and a waste of my time".
Of course underneath it all there was (and still is) a deep insecurity as to my own ability to be interesting and entertaining.

I feel boring most of the time and don't understand why anyone would want to spend time with me. Have trouble with "having fun" (struggled with depression for many years and am still apathetic in many ways, sometimes I think I have dysthymia because I honestly can't feel excited or joyful and have severe problems with motivation and anxiety).

Naturally I have immense trouble feeling like I "fit in", not only with other people but in the World itself.

(I'm in my early 20's though, but still.)

Life scares the hell out of me, especially the professional world (Pluto in the 6H and Saturn ruler of the MC).
I feel like I will never be able to measure up or feel comfortable in what I do. Besides, I don't have a plan, I don't know what I'd like to do, simply because I feel like I have no real interest in anything, nor the motivation to go after anything.

I get very easily discouraged (that could be due to Saturn opposing my Moon and squaring my Mars along with my Sun and Pluto) and anything that even remotely resembles a challenge makes me want to die, literally. I can't handle stress at all, I always want to hide in my room and never go out and deal with the world.

That's been causing me mental and emotional distress for many years, and people in my surroundings don't comprehend my behavior/reactions, they think I'm lazy. I'm just extremely insecure to the point that living life scares me. Things that "normal" people do, I can't do, or feel like I can't do. E.g. Finding a job and working, making money, having your own place to live (I live with my mother still), having a social network, having goals, etc.
I've struggled with anxiety by the time I had to go to school, it's always been there.

Having to assert myself or have responsibilities of any kind makes me anxious because I feel like I will screw everything up and other people will get mad at me and I'll feel bad about myself, etc.

I can relate to being the "black sheep" of the family because of the things I mentioned above - depression, anxiety, crippling insecurity, hermit tendencies, etc. It was especially bad during my teenage years when I was suicidal and very aggressive with my family, especially my mother (my parents are divorced, and their separation deeply affected me).

So here I am now. Still as lost as ever, fearful and self-doubting to the extreme.

---Note: I don't think it's all due to the Saturn/Pluto square itself, but mainly to the T-square I have going on; and perhaps more importantly, my South Node in the 12H (which is also very challenged).

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fireopal09
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posted June 16, 2015 08:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fireopal09     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Doux,

I absolutely GET what your saying. Our childhoods are similar. My parents divorced when I was 8 months old after being married for 4 years. I went to 10 different schools and was always the odd girl out until I hit puberty. I started hanging out with other misfits and I was still rejected by some. People either hate me or love me. I've learned to accept it.

Doux, I am 41 and me and my 10 year old daughter have lived with my mother since 2009 when my ex decided he didn't want to be a full time husband and father anymore. This isn't the first time either. I had to move in with her when I moved back from Alaska when my ex fiance cheated on me. There is no shame in having to move back home or live at home. You are still young; so please take that off your overflowing plate of worry.

I've dealt with depression and anxiety since I was a little girl. Most people don't get real depression is not tears, wailing, and gnashing of teeth; it is like having the blood in your veins replaced with lead.

From your post, I can tell you are a perfectionist. I am too. It is a cruel game our minds and leads to inaction, because you don't want to screw anything up. Unless you are a surgeon, you aren't going to make a fatal mistake. Manfriend, of whom I blathered about a million times on LL, is a former special forces combat veteran, has given me some perspective over the years when his days have been crappy, "I'm on the right side of the dirt".

Have you been on antidepressants/anxiety meds? I was on generic Zoloft for a few years. It helped so much, but the divorce ended my health insurance.

Also, you need to start your own astrology blog. You are insightful,wise and gifted. I was surprised to find out you are so young.

I leave you with this video.
http://youtu.be/SNny8w18QOs

------------------
Claire
"When going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
-HST

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fireopal09
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posted June 16, 2015 08:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fireopal09     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://youtu.be/3qVPNONdF58

Kinda us.

------------------
Claire
"When going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
-HST

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peony
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posted June 16, 2015 11:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for peony     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Doux Rêve:
I'm not sure how exactly this aspect plays out, because it's part of a T-square (so there are many energies at play).

Yes, the t-square is very substantial in your chart. But, it may help to take it apart and separate out the Saturn-Pluto square by describing it in more detail.

First, the move to a different country, with different customs and being among strangers would certainly make you feel set apart from the culture, and is a correlation with Saturn in the 11H. You've identified quite well your experiences that correspond to this placement in your chart.

quote:
But mainly, I just feel defective in a fundamental way and like others can see right through me.


Much of what you say about yourself echo the experience of being identified with the scapegoat: the feeling of being alien and radically unacceptable, of not belonging, a sense of living in exile, and the ever present negative self-judgment and self-rejection.

I think it's very important to have someone to mirror for you your positive traits, which you may be largely unconscious of.

Here's a sampling of characteristics of Saturn-Pluto. This is a quote from Richard Tarnas's "Notes on World Center Attack":

1. The feeling of being caught helplessly in the grip of overwhelming, powerful, and often dark forces, of being the victim of large ruthless impersonal forces of nature or of history that are both destructive and imprisoning. More generally, a sense of larger powers of any kind--social, historical, elemental, biological, archetypal--being in control of one's life. The powerlessness of the entrapped and suffering victim is usually matched by an obsessive drive for control, power, and domination, the two sides of the experience mirroring each other, sometimes occurring in alternation in the same person or community.

2. A deeply sobering awareness of the world's dangerousness. The potential for either a highly grounded and experienced realism in the face of a harshly challenging world, or paranoid fears of hidden organized plots and dangers.

3. Confinement and constriction intensified to claustrophobic, life-threatening, or even lethal dimensions... [There's a striking parallel here with the perinatal trauma of the birth process.]...the fetus struggling in the contractions of birth; suffocation; helpless entrapment by larger physical forces.

[It may be that much of your anxiety and fear has its origin in the birth trauma, or even before that in past life trauma.]

4. A tendency to see things in terms of a confrontation between good and evil.

5. Experiences that in their traumatic intensity and gravity take many years to absorb, integrate, or heal from."

I think you get the idea of just how potent this combination is.

quote:
Pluto rules my Scorpio stellium (Sun, Mercury, Mars, and well Pluto itself) and Saturn rules my 9H and 10H...

With Saturn ruling the 9H and its squares to Sun, Mars, and Pluto, there may be a tendency to see the harsh and punitive aspect of the divine, in other words, the God of the Old Testament that judges and condemns.

quote:
I feel different from people, like I have a different understanding of life and different interests and opinions in general.

Yes, and I would say this is precisely where your gift lies and what you have to offer the world around you.

quote:
When I was a teenager especially, I was a hermit and would rarely ever go out because I thought "people were uninteresting and a waste of my time".

Of course underneath it all there was (and still is) a deep insecurity as to my own ability to be interesting and entertaining.


You're very self-aware and perceptive for someone any age, but for someone as young as you, it's remarkable.

quote:
I feel boring most of the time and don't understand why anyone would want to spend time with me.

Your honesty and vulnerability are not boring, they're attractive.

quote:
Have trouble with "having fun" (struggled with depression for many years and am still apathetic in many ways, sometimes I think I have dysthymia because I honestly can't feel excited or joyful and have severe problems with motivation and anxiety).

Yes, with the Scorpio stellium, and the hard aspects of Saturn, I don't doubt it. Have you ever thought of trying flower essences or gems/gem elixirs to alter the balance of these energies? Kannon, an astrologer on the forum has a website on gems. If you'd like to take a look, I'll get you a link to his website.

quote:
Life scares the hell out of me, especially the professional world (Pluto in the 6H and Saturn ruler of the MC).

I wonder if this has to do with the mother/daughter bond or lack thereof (Moon-Saturn opposition). It's the mother that provides a safe container for the child, the womb being the first experience of "world" for the fetus. When that is lacking, the child tends to feel that the world and even the body is an unsafe place to be. It also seems to me that a father being present would have helped with a sense of direction and goals.

quote:
...people in my surroundings don't comprehend my behavior/reactions, they think I'm lazy. I'm just extremely insecure to the point that living life scares me. Things that "normal" people do, I can't do, or feel like I can't do. E.g. Finding a job and working, making money, having your own place to live (I live with my mother still), having a social network, having goals, etc.
I've struggled with anxiety by the time I had to go to school, it's always been there.

Having to assert myself or have responsibilities of any kind makes me anxious because I feel like I will screw everything up and other people will get mad at me and I'll feel bad about myself, etc.

I can relate to being the "black sheep" of the family because of the things I mentioned above - depression, anxiety, crippling insecurity, hermit tendencies, etc.


I wonder if this has to do with past life experiences. There seems to be so much going on that it doesn't seem to me to be just early childhood experiences. I may be wrong though.

If you don't mind my asking, what are the aspects to your South Node and what are the signs of NN and SN?

Thank you for being here.

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fireopal09
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posted June 16, 2015 11:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fireopal09     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
^ What Peony said. She is do on the mark.

------------------
Claire
"When going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
-HST

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Swanlake
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posted June 17, 2015 03:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Swanlake     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Peony.. Your quote above from Richard Tarnas is SO TRUE ! (as well as earlier stuff you've said)
I've Saturn sq Pluto in my chart. It is a heavy placement indeed.(Feeling of"carrying the weight of the world on one's shoulders" I've read it described as)
Worst thing is the isolation..of knowing things that most people don't know and don't want to believe- are going on in the world... can drive one to the edge.
(Don't mean to cut in, sorry, but struggling to cope. Mine being triggered by Saturn currently.) (And "scapegoat" - yes! By my own family just recently..)

I started a post on Sat sq Pluto quite a while back...but nobody responded.

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Swanlake
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posted June 17, 2015 04:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Swanlake     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Fireopal09 I can relate to a lot of your feelings quoted above by Peony even though my Sat/Pl is in different houses from yours.
I believe that it begins in one's family of origin.Some kind of (inadvertant) abuse of power eg a grave injustice by a parent that makes one feel absolutely squashed & devastated with nowhere to turn.
I can recall an incident (although not the particulars) when little, I felt so devastated that I squashed myself under a low sofa to hide in darkness to cope. It wasn't physical abuse but must have been a verbal admonishment. Nevertheless it made me feel destroyed in it's unfairness & totally powerless.(Saturn -Pluto ?) Children sense injustice very keenly and it can leave a permanent mark/ emotional scar depending on severity & circumstances..

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Yanmorg
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posted June 17, 2015 07:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Yanmorg     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow, Peony.

Great excerpts!


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peony
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posted June 17, 2015 01:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for peony     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Swanlake:
Peony.. Your quote above from Richard Tarnas is SO TRUE ! (as well as earlier stuff you've said)
I've Saturn sq Pluto in my chart. It is a heavy placement indeed.(Feeling of"carrying the weight of the world on one's shoulders" I've read it described as)
Worst thing is the isolation..of knowing things that most people don't know and don't want to believe- are going on in the world... can drive one to the edge.
(Don't mean to cut in, sorry, but struggling to cope. Mine being triggered by Saturn currently.) (And "scapegoat" - yes! By my own family just recently..)

I started a post on Sat sq Pluto quite a while back...but nobody responded.


Swanlake, thank you for joining the conversation. I think Saturn-Pluto is hard for many people to hear and think about and for people who have the aspect in the natal chart, there can be resistance to self-disclosure. Our feelings and experiences are so out of the mainstream that this makes people uncomfortable, particularly in cultures where superficiality is predominant.

It's so true what you said about isolation. When you know things that other people don't know, and don't even want to know, it makes one lonely. Carl Jung had the Saturn-Pluto square, and he made the same observation in his autobiography. Not surprisingly, it's no accident that the idea of the "shadow" became a significant idea in Jungian psychology. Many people don't understand this, but the psychological awareness of it is a the special gift - and curse - of Saturn-Pluto people.

If you don't mind my asking, are you paying attention to your dreams? My guess is that the Saturn transit means some kind of confrontation with the shadow and that it's manifesting in your dreams or in outer life situations, or both. If I may make a suggestion, it's very important to be aware of and find some distance from the Saturn-Pluto pattern of negative judgment, being hyper-critical either of oneself and/or other people, blame, guilt, and shame that can lead to depression and self-hatred. Even talking about what you're going through with a trusted friend who is impartial and doesn't judge you, can be very helpful. How far into the transit are you?

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peony
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posted June 17, 2015 01:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for peony     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Yanmorg:
Wow, Peony.

Great excerpts!


I agree. Rick is very articulate.

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Doux Rêve
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posted June 17, 2015 03:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doux Rêve     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by fireopal09:
Doux,

I absolutely GET what your saying.


I am glad to hear you understand, fireopal.
It's true that it's easy to feel very alone and isolated with that aspect.

Interesting you say people either love you or hate you, that doesn't really sound like a Saturn/Pluto thing (or does it)?
What else do you have going on in your chart that could make it so?

I don't think people either love me or hate me. In fact, I am very mellow and accepting, and rarely stand out.

quote:
Doux, I am 41 and me and my 10 year old daughter have lived with my mother since 2009 when my ex decided he didn't want to be a full time husband and father anymore.

I am sorry to hear about your troubles with men in your life. Hopefully things are better now and you have a respectful partner to share your life with.
Thank you for your kind words.

quote:
I've dealt with depression and anxiety since I was a little girl. Most people don't get real depression is not tears, wailing, and gnashing of teeth; it is like having the blood in your veins replaced with lead.

Very interesting analogy, I like it.
To me, depression is like a hole inside myself. Actually, I simply feel like the hole itself.

quote:
From your post, I can tell you are a perfectionist. I am too.

Interesting you say that, because I have never thought of myself as a perfectionist. Though I know I was in childhood, and looking deeply into it, it's probably true (I have a 6H stellium and a Virgo Moon to boot). It's just that I feel like it's no use even trying, so I don't even try. (Perhaps that's also part of the reason I never feel quite "happy".)

quote:
It is a cruel game our minds and leads to inaction, because you don't want to screw anything up. Unless you are a surgeon, you aren't going to make a fatal mistake. Manfriend, of whom I blathered about a million times on LL, is a former special forces combat veteran, has given me some perspective over the years when his days have been crappy, "I'm on the right side of the dirt".

That's definitely something to think about. It's true, and I understand that, but somehow a part of me has a hard time accepting the concept. That screwing up won't be the death of me. I think it's mainly because my mother always made/makes me feel that if I don't do something perfectly, down to the smallest details, I'll be put to death (verbally, though she can be physically abusive as well when really angry). Perhaps it's a by-product of having a very critical and explosive mother.

quote:
Have you been on antidepressants/anxiety meds? I was on generic Zoloft for a few years. It helped so much, but the divorce ended my health insurance.

I did try, a few years ago. Didn't work well at all, I was a walking zombie. I'm not very into the idea of medication, although I've happened to contemplate the idea. Glad to know it worked for you though, at least to some extent. And sorry about the divorce.

quote:
Also, you need to start your own astrology blog. You are insightful,wise and gifted. I was surprised to find out you are so young.

Why, thank you so much.
I honestly don't think I could write anything substantial; mainly I just provide easy answers to newbies. (Heh, here comes the self-doubt again?)

quote:
I leave you with this video.
http://youtu.be/SNny8w18QOs

Nice one! The lyrics fit.

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Doux Rêve
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posted June 17, 2015 05:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doux Rêve     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by peony:
I think it's very important to have someone to mirror for you your positive traits, which you may be largely unconscious of.

Hi peony,

thank you for your insights, I appreciate it.

The "problem" with the positive mirroring, shall we say, is that it's too hard to believe. When someone tells me I'm X and Y (positive qualities), I think to myself, "Hmm, that does sound true..." and literally 5 seconds later, I go back to, "Heh, but they really don't know the real me, and the real me is totally lame. If only they knew..."

I mentioned in the post above I have a Virgo Moon (afflicted obviously, as it's part of the "lethal" T-square) and a 6H stellium. I just never, ever feel good enough.

quote:
Here's a sampling of characteristics of Saturn-Pluto. This is a quote from Richard Tarnas's "Notes on World Center Attack":

Very interesting. Definitely resonates.
I will try to comment on each quote.

quote:
More generally, a sense of larger powers of any kind--social, historical, elemental, biological, archetypal--being in control of one's life.

Definitely. A very heavy feeling of being oppressed, unjustly so. Powerlessness is a key word / theme in my life, no doubt.
There were times in my life where I felt like I was possessed by evil forces, and there was once a priest that came to pray over me (it didn't seem to help that much). Subconscious or "spiritual" "forces" have always had much influence in my life, and I still struggle with finding my own truth when it comes to that.

quote:
A deeply sobering awareness of the world's dangerousness. The potential for either a highly grounded and experienced realism in the face of a harshly challenging world, or paranoid fears of hidden organized plots and dangers.

Yes, and I'd say I've been on the paranoid side. Paradoxically, I am actually an optimist at heart, or in "thought" (?); but the subconscious side of me just won't believe it. It's like I think, "I can make it, I will make it, somehow" but on the other hand, that same thought goes hand in hand with, "I really can't make it, how am I going to make it? Oh God, I just want to disappear right now" and then, Oh! hi anxiety and despair.

quote:
[It may be that much of your anxiety and fear has its origin in the birth trauma, or even before that in past life trauma.]

I don't know about birth trauma (all I know is that my mother suffered a lot during my birth, as in, extreme pain - she was screaming a lot and it lasted quite a few hours); but one day I found out that my mother was once on the verge of committing suicide while being pregnant with me (I think she was heart-broken because of something my father did, and drowned herself in alcohol until she lost consciousness - though I'm not sure about the details), that could play a role.

quote:
A tendency to see things in terms of a confrontation between good and evil.

Holy moly, yes. It's actually been very difficult to deal with - I was raised a Christian, and lately especially have been greatly struggling with the concept of God and religion in general... versus (?) spirituality... Wondering what "evil" truly is, if there's a Devil, and so on. Sometimes I find myself thinking very... dark? thoughts, when I am interacting with someone for example, or when I see something happening in the street (like acts of violence or very drunk people who seem out of their mind). And then I wonder, "am I correct in thinking this is evil? What about being accepting of others and loving others despite their flaws/sins? How should I feel about this? Is evil something to be scared of, or should I let go of fear and become more like Christ - accept everyone without necessarily approving of their behavior? But what about horrible, criminal acts like murder?"... and so on and so forth. Sometimes it feels like my head's going to explode.

quote:
5. Experiences that in their traumatic intensity and gravity take many years to absorb, integrate, or heal from.

I do take a loooot of time to heal (actually I'm not sure I've ever truly healed from anything - emotionally / psychologically speaking - I have a tendency to hold everything in and never truly express my feelings, except in a matter-of-fact manner), though I wouldn't say my experiences have been super traumatic (objectively speaking; but then again trauma affects everyone differently).

quote:
With Saturn ruling the 9H and its squares to Sun, Mars, and Pluto, there may be a tendency to see the harsh and punitive aspect of the divine, in other words, the God of the Old Testament that judges and condemns.

Yes, I mentioned religion above, and it has been a very confusing journey. (Uranus and Neptune in the 9H probably don't help.)
I definitely have issues with "punishment" (I think that can also be due to the Saturn/Mars square) - very often, deep down, I feel like I deserve the bad things that happen to me because I'm a sinner and a bad person, or that karma is getting me, because I've done bad things, etc. That's probably because I often repress guilt, and can lack empathy, especially for the people closest to me like my mother (I am not very kind to her, and it's something I am aware of, but can't seem to change - perhaps when I'm away from her, it'll be easier to be on good terms).

Nowadays it's easier to handle - I don't have such thoughts often anymore, but it used to be a great pain in the butt, to put it mildly, causing me a lot of self-hatred and all those pretty things. (I am fairly sure those feelings can still be triggered today, if the "right" event happens.)

quote:
I would say this is precisely where your gift lies and what you have to offer the world around you.

I'll have to think about it. And then overcome my limiting beliefs about myself and life in general, I suppose.

quote:
You're very self-aware and perceptive for someone any age, but for someone as young as you, it's remarkable.

Thank you, peony.

quote:
Your honesty and vulnerability are not boring, they're attractive.

*insert blushing here*

quote:
Have you ever thought of trying flower essences or gems/gem elixirs to alter the balance of these energies? Kannon, an astrologer on the forum has a website on gems. If you'd like to take a look, I'll get you a link to his website.

Yes, I did read his article about the gem stones. Kind of skeptical about that, though. I did buy a gem, a red one and on the first day felt the energy, but then I always wonder if it's just the placebo effect. Nowadays it seems it's not really working, but perhaps I need to "wash it" (put it in salt or in the sunlight?) or get myself other gems to reinforce the overall effect? Hmm.

I've heard some positive stories about flower essences, but I have a feeling (perhaps incorrect) that I need a bit more than that to get over my issues and find healing.
Thank you for mentioning it, though. Much appreciated.

quote:
I wonder if this has to do with the mother/daughter bond or lack thereof (Moon-Saturn opposition). It's the mother that provides a safe container for the child, the womb being the first experience of "world" for the fetus. When that is lacking, the child tends to feel that the world and even the body is an unsafe place to be. It also seems to me that a father being present would have helped with a sense of direction and goals.

Yes, like previously mentioned, my mother's womb wasn't the safest place to be. My parents had a very volatile and destructive relationship so it didn't help; and my father was always in and out of my life, and at age 8 he left for good and wasn't really present in my life from then on. My mother was very unstable emotionally and I was very scared of her during most of my childhood and teenage years. To be honest she still scares me, I am afraid of "triggering" her and being verbally slaughtered or physically hit. We have a very dysfunctional relationship, however fortunately it's not as bad as it used to be.

quote:
If you don't mind my asking, what are the aspects to your South Node and what are the signs of NN and SN?

I don't mind at all, thank you for asking.

My South Node is in Gemini, in the 12H but tightly conjunct my Gemini ASC; it squares my Virgo Moon and Chiron (they're widely conjunct but I count it as valid - 6°);
my North Node conjuncts Mars but out of sign (3°) and semisquares Neptune and Uranus.
It's probably going to be easier to understand with a visual: aspects grid

Thank you for reading my essay... *feels bad about self cause she's written so much stuff*

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peony
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posted June 18, 2015 11:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for peony     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This poem came to mind and seems fitting here.

George Herbert. 1593–1632
  
Love
  
LOVE bade me welcome; yet my soul drew back,
 
      Guilty of dust and sin.
 
But quick-eyed Love, observing me grow slack
 
      From my first entrance in,
 
Drew nearer to me, sweetly questioning
         
      If I lack'd anything.
 
 
'A guest,' I answer'd, 'worthy to be here:'
 
     Love said, 'You shall be he.'
 
'I, the unkind, ungrateful? Ah, my dear,
 
      I cannot look on Thee.'
  
Love took my hand and smiling did reply,
 
      'Who made the eyes but I?'
 
 
'Truth, Lord; but I have marr'd them: let my shame
 
      Go where it doth deserve.'
 
'And know you not,' says Love, 'Who bore the blame?'
  
      'My dear, then I will serve.'
 
'You must sit down,' says Love, 'and taste my meat.'
 
      So I did sit and eat.


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Doux Rêve
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posted June 20, 2015 05:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doux Rêve     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the poem, peony.

It's quite beautiful.

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