posted February 22, 2016 05:13 AM            

I think this is important since we all know that we need both to get things done.

Jupiter in 1st?
Mars square Saturn?
Abundance of trines?
Grand trine?

posted February 23, 2016 03:28 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Vajra:
Hi Enneline,

it can't be either H1 Jupiter or Saturn sq. Mars IMO. Jupiter in H1 gives rather than diminishes energy. My dad has this and boy, is he ever like a high-speed train. Our family holidays during my childhood years would typically look like this: Go to some country (eg. Tunisia), jump right out of the plane no matter how little sleep one got, rent a car, and spend two weeks criss-crossing the entire country, driving to every tiny place worth seeing no matter how remote, always on the road. Beaches & pools were for the feeble minded in his opinion and I longed for them secretly while we were crossing some desert or stumbled over ancient ruins. Made plenty of contact with the locals too, which was great, but still - that was his idea of relaxing! Once my mom forced a traditional beach holiday on him with nothing to do and in response he got a high fever that lasted the entire holiday; being condemned to idleness literally made him sick. In work matters he is even worse but to him it's effortless, even fun to move at that speed. He's like that still at age 70+ and rather exhausting to be around (and I don't think he will ever retire). Other peeps with that placement likewise tend to have an abundance of energy IME so if someone doesn't, I'd suspect other factors at play.

Saturn squares on the other hand tend to strengthen rather than weaken discipline. Saturn sq. Venus people are disciplined in love, Saturn sq. Mars people are disciplined in regard to applying energy, and so on. One Saturn sq. Sun guy I'm close to is extremely hard on himself and the most disciplined person I've ever met. When he makes a plan he follows through come hell or high water. He can even control automatic bodily functions with his willpower. The Saturn sq. Mars you mentioned is an aspect I have myself. Even though I'm low on earth, no one would ever call me undisciplined, rather the opposite. I've even been ordered by a former superior to 'slow down and take it easy' at work because according to him, my example was placing too much pressure on the other employees and scaring them. "Just work a little more slowly", he said. "And if you occasionally run out of things to do, why not just clean up your desk?"
That was a funny kind of talk I can tell you.

So from your list I'd perhaps put my money on the grand trine more than the others. Another possibility might be a hidden or weakened Saturn (such as an unaspected Saturn, stashed away in H12, and placed in a Water sign or something like that - just speculating though, as I don't know a person with that kind of Saturn placement).

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Hi

thanks for your answer.

You Dad sounds funny But this would be a confirmation of my perception of Jupiter in 1st (I have that myself). A lot of energy and generosity when it comes to pleasures like vacation. But i meant "real" discipline and persistence. For example getting through a hard business project.

Yah, i have mars sq saturn as well and i can be a hard worker. But it's a square- this could lead to self-destructive discipline, kind of unhealthy discpline, like no structure or too much structure and methods.

yes, a weak Saturn can be the reason but an unaspected Saturn can be the strongest planet of all. Maybe Saturn retrogade?

posted February 23, 2016 03:34 AM            

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Originally posted by outofideas:
I'd like to know that too...
I have none of the 4 suggested variations.
In fact, i think my chart indicates that i should be rather hard-working with Saturn being quite dominant, in conjunction with a few planets.
Yet, for the past few years i have had very low vitality and stamina, get discouraged and dragged down very easily. I've never really been disciplined that much either, unless something else is enforcing me to be.
Never the less, i am often restless and need to do something that is rewarding or would bring positive results quite fast.
Maybe that's what i really am, or i have stuck energies that i can't release in to the really productive stuff, or this is just a long phase of certain transits, who knows.

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thank you for your reply.

maybe too much Saturn leads to too much "checking" before starting any project? Or too much Saturn means restriction.

What about the ratio of elements in your chart?

posted February 23, 2016 03:52 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Vajra:
Hi Enneline,

no, no, you misunderstood: He's like that on vacation, but even worse than that on business matters. He's the head of a company he founded - his second career after decades as an attorney. I always admire the people who work with him, I can only take that energy in small doses. He's also survived unbelievable things (including a plane crash in Subsaharan Africa, as well as various other freak accidents and serious illlnesses) and never given up, came back stronger from it every time. He didn't have an easy start in life either, had to grow up without a father. Has been happily married for 46 years. If that's not "real" stamina, then what is?

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yeah, that's stamina and since I have jupiter in 1h as well, it gives me hope

posted February 23, 2016 06:51 AM            

Procrastination is usually associated with heavy water signs and houses, especially Neptune and the 12th house. Saturn in water, especially rx, can make someone feel blocked, numb, stuck sometimes, especially the first half of life, until the energy is unleashed. Mars/Neptune or in the 12th can sometimes bring difficulties with this, because Mars is shooting underwater here and it takes an extra effort to channel it.

There is also the quoeficient of self-destructive behavior we can see in the chart (although, in both cases, early life education and genetics would play the greatest role in how a structure manifests in a chart, and determine how disciplined the person is based on the models they had), which is likely to undermine constructive efforts. This part usually can come from any outer, for there are specific self-destructive behaviors for any outer.
But I'll first go with Neptune for procrastination.

posted February 23, 2016 07:52 AM            

Same goes for Sun/Saturn square and opposition. It either works well or it doesn't at all.

I assume that is because they have more supportive elements in their chart, for instance Fire energy and perhaps a strong Sun or ASC... Or it's a matter of progressions. *shrugs*

Definitely agree with Neptune/12H. Goes without saying.

Can agree with the Grand Trine thing as well... But it's usually not as debilitating as a very strained/unchanneled Saturn.

posted February 23, 2016 08:22 AM            

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
If you have a Venus trine Pluto or Venus conj Pluto it doesn't mean you are getting the best side of Venus/Pluto, while having a Venus/Pluto sq means you are getting the worst side of Venus/Pluto.

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Hmm. I think it depends on the planet. And the effects of the aspects are different. They can be "negative" in both cases (both tense and flowing aspects) but the expression is different, and is usually considered more difficult/challenging with the tense aspects.

The flowing aspects can go overboard, that's their main "problem". But generally speaking they don't cause much difficulty, especially for the owner.

Take someone who has Moon trine Mercury. They love talking and aren't too good at listening. They don't really see a problem with their behavior, they are in accordance with themselves... even though others can be annoyed with their behavior. The tension just isn't there, at least not subjectively (but it can of course create friction in the outer world/with others).

While a tense aspect would be evident, internally speaking and very often externally as well.

Moon square Mercury people (generalization incoming) have trouble expressing themselves, and they know it. And unless they've worked through it, others can usually spot it, too (especially in youth).

So, flowing aspects can be "too flowing" and overdo. But tense aspects point to blockages that are really hard to ignore.

I view conjunctions as hard aspects that are more or less easy to deal with depending on the planets involved...
Conjunctions to outer planets are undoubtedly troublesome but I'd never in a lifetime compare them to the square and opposition, which I view as much more "problematic".

posted February 23, 2016 08:53 AM            

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posted February 23, 2016 09:11 AM            

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
See? One good example of self-content

Just kidding, Ami.

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posted February 23, 2016 09:18 AM              

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Originally posted by Doux Rêve:
I find it interesting how Mars square Saturn can manifest differently depending on the chart. I know several people, including myself, who definitely lack stamina and who have this aspect. I absolutely believe it contributes. But then you have people who use it constructively. (Come to think of it, the people who struggle with it have a Water Mars, perhaps leading to more discouragement?)

Same goes for Sun/Saturn square and opposition. It either works well or it doesn't at all.

I assume that is because they have more supportive elements in their chart, for instance Fire energy and perhaps a strong Sun or ASC... Or it's a matter of progressions. *shrugs*

Definitely agree with Neptune/12H. Goes without saying.

Can agree with the Grand Trine thing as well... But it's usually not as debilitating as a very strained/unchanneled Saturn.

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I have mars in cancer square saturn and my stamina is pretty good. I keep going with things long after most have given up. This is bad when it comes to men that are trash that i should have given up on long before i did, but works to my advantage with things like school, where i keep going with the intent to see things through to their completion.

I have a few trines too, so that theory that lots of trines will make you this way also doesn't hold a lot of weight either.

Saturn prominent doesn't necessarily mean discipline and stamina either, I've encountered a few who are just lazy and like to root from the sidelines for people to fail because they cant get off their butts and try to accomplish anything themselves.

The Saturnian people who aren't that way usually had a lot of Pluto stuff in their chart also.

posted February 23, 2016 10:30 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Vajra:
Lucky you Well, his Saturn (ruler of his Capricorn Sun and of his IC) is in H9, in Cancer, and widely conj. his early Leo Mars (7°46). Saturn squares his H1 Libra Jupiter by 0°49, near exact, and squares his H1 Chiron by 3°23. Saturn is also quincunx his Sag Venus (0°38).

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posted February 23, 2016 10:36 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by LeeLoo2014:
The Grand Trine (or abundance of 3rd/6th harmonic) is the most self-indulgent and complacent structure, on its down side.
Squares make people do things, they are over-active, not under-active, and they are the markers of achievement in a chart, not the opposite. Especially achievements based on self-discipline, self-transformation, challenging oneself, molding oneself according to challenges, being tough on oneself, being very active with something. Rather than successes when you are being helped by circumstances, talents etc. which is the part in our chart giving us things that come easily and naturally to us. After a certain point though, if you want to go high, no matter how talented you are, you need both influences, that is why we find T/sq AND trines/sextiles in high achievers: they show both talent, and the stamina; sq are very ambitious.

Procrastination is usually associated with heavy water signs and houses, especially Neptune and the 12th house. Saturn in water, especially rx, can make someone feel blocked, numb, stuck sometimes, especially the first half of life, until the energy is unleashed. Mars/Neptune or in the 12th can sometimes bring difficulties with this, because Mars is shooting underwater here and it takes an extra effort to channel it.

There is also the quoeficient of self-destructive behavior we can see in the chart (although, in both cases, early life education and genetics would play the greatest role in how a structure manifests in a chart, and determine how disciplined the person is based on the models they had), which is likely to undermine constructive efforts. This part usually can come from any outer, for there are specific self-destructive behaviors for any outer.
But I'll first go with Neptune for procrastination.

It can be an Aries issue though. Aries energy has trouble with carrying things through, one needs to rely on other sides of the chart for that, and use Aries for a good start. Aries energy makes one start things with great enthusiasm but too much Aries makes one feel very disheartened, deflated and ready to give up when things go slower than expected.

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i agree with the grand trine, that is my personal experience & what i heard from others. They often would have a lot of energy + talent but their self-indulgency is hair-rising. "If it's meant to happen, it's gonna happen"
My friend has a grand trine and she started to become a fighter when she suffered from cancer + a divorce. So glad that i have a kite

This could be true with Mars opp Neptune. They need a big dream or they dream of their big dream rather than pursuing them. Also, a possible indicator for drugs & violence -> self-destructiveness

Oh yes, Aries. I have moon & MC in aries and i am not afraid of any project that requires a high drive & energy BUT only if i want. If there is no passion (mars) i tend to stop it before i start. My sense for passion must be activated.

yeah, i think aries & geminis tend to not finish things they started

posted February 23, 2016 11:04 AM            

Oddly enough Mars is in Virgo but it completes the trine because it's at zero degrees. It's opposite Saturn but by 6 degrees, and I think this is actually very descriptive of the lessons I've grown into. I'm only 21 but the older I get, the more I feel that opposition, and the more I am forced to pay attention to it.

posted February 23, 2016 12:42 PM            

maybe it is the saturn in virgo "Saturn in Virgo is a fine placement endowing much discipline, control, and ability to sift the wheat from the chaff."