posted August 06, 2016 05:11 PM            

If there are any patterns, I believe Sun square ASC is part of it.

posted August 06, 2016 08:35 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Aunt Anomalia:
Why does anything unusual = Aquarius/Uranus?

If there are any patterns, I believe Sun square ASC is part of it.

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posted August 06, 2016 09:02 PM            

'Course I'd like to see the FtM version as well, but offhand I don't of any celebrities (though I'm sure they're out there, too).

posted August 06, 2016 10:16 PM            

House placement would be important here, I think. Perhaps pluto (representing secrets or transformation) is prominent in charts of those not out--aspects to a planet placed in a "feminine" or "masculine" sign, itself in a house like the eighth or aspecting a planet placed there.

Gender (and most things) are easy to see in the chart when you consider how they are represented. Someone out and very public about being transgender, perhaps an activist, would likely have their gender represented less by pluto (or the always obvious uranus) and more by chiron (the wounded healer?), or the moon (the emotions and the intuition, leading through their deepest being).

posted August 06, 2016 10:57 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Queen Salome:
What do you think is prominent in charts of people who want to change their sex? Is it possible to see it in natal chart?

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What you will see is a Pluto signature indicating the possibility of transformation; possibly Uranus as well, indicating a pretty radical one. In addition sometimes, Neptune/Asc/Moon indicating uncertain/vacillating identity.

I have done some study of this with real charts and have friends in gender transition. The one to start with is on record at astrodatabank Christine Jorgensen
....who did this in the 1950s! She was born a boy named George, and first served in the US Navy during WWII before pursuing gender reassignment, and had a career as an entertainer afterwards, enjoying quite an audience.

The chart you see at ADB is based on a rounded time of 9 AM -- not accurate enough for study. My chart study (rectification) indicates that the correct chart's Asc is 8° Cancer applying conjunct Pluto in 1st. Regardless of that, the chart's declinations show Sun parallel Pluto at 21 North.

Her surgeries began 24 September 1951 when Uranus [23N05] and Pluto [22N43] were in transit parallel her natal Asc at 23° North declination, and Neptune [5S48] was parallel her natal MC.

posted August 07, 2016 12:53 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
What you will see is a Pluto signature indicating the possibility of transformation; possibly Uranus as well, indicating a pretty radical one. In addition sometimes, Neptune/Asc/Moon indicating uncertain/vacillating identity.

I have done some study of this with real charts and have friends in gender transition. The one to start with is on record at astrodatabank Christine Jorgensen
....who did this in the 1950s! She was born a boy named George, and first served in the US Navy during WWII before pursuing gender reassignment, and had a career as an entertainer afterwards, enjoying quite an audience.

The chart you see at ADB is based on a rounded time of 9 AM -- not accurate enough for study. My chart study (rectification) indicates that the correct chart's Asc is 8° Cancer applying conjunct Pluto in 1st. Regardless of that, the chart's declinations show Sun parallel Pluto at 21 North.

Her surgeries began 24 September 1951 when Uranus [23N05] and Pluto [22N43] were in transit parallel her natal Asc at 23° North declination, and Neptune [5S48] was parallel her natal MC.

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posted August 07, 2016 02:05 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Electro DGX:
I was going to say that if anyone mentioned Aquarius I was going to blow a mental socket. Aqua stellium of five here with strong Pluto and the idea disgusts me.

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I could go on and on why I hate this book (especially that it's a bestseller, but at least the movie tones down the abusive aspects, though it's still pretty bad) but just as an example of what this Libra person was saying was not abusive, there's a scene where Ana emails Christian her refusal, though it was apparently "a joke." But as far as Christian knows it's sincere, and he breaks into her home and rapes her...but she likes it, so it's all okay. I cannot even begin to describe my disgust at this (especially after I read of a man charged with rape whose defense was he thought that's what women wanted, a take charge man like that who dominated her like Christian Grey). And if Christian Grey were obsessed with me, the book would have to be called something like 50 Ways to Kill Your Stalker.

And yet there is a Libra woman out there who thinks Christian Grey is her dream lover.

posted August 07, 2016 02:16 AM            

There are circumstantial reasons I think this is probably correct. One of them is that an infant boy lost his penis in a circumcision accident, and doctors convinced the parents to have the boy altered to be female. And so it was done, but deep down he always knew he wasn't a girl, despite having the parts of one, and essentially had the gender dysphoria of others who know they're the wrong gender and seek to surgically correct that.

Btw, there are also a range of people who are intersex. Many were surgically made the gender they were born the closest to as doctors felt compelled to [snark]correct God's mistakes[/snark]. And they could be like that boy who knew he was a boy despite being raised as a girl in a girl's body.

posted August 07, 2016 06:42 AM            

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Sorry that uranus and aquarius show shirking of tradition and societal values, yet you think your closed mind embodies it.

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I can totally buy the Pluto-ASC theory (conjunctions and squares). I think Uranus could be prominent in transits during the transition, at least if it's male to female. Poor thing lost his testicles

quote:

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Why Sun square ASC

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posted August 07, 2016 06:42 AM            

The reason i believe we find it so "controversial",is because of our pre-occupation with sexuality,labels and gender rules.

If we lived past sexual pre-occupations or when eventually being bisexual,gay,intersex etc. becomes socially "passe" ,the collective would begin to be fixated with other things and thus label those people under those things as "avant garde" and "unique"

When i look to charts, i look at hard aspects(including the conjunction) to the nodal axis. As these usually point to people who may live outside of the standards of what is "normal" in society.

The houses,planets and aspects involved may explain in more detail as to whether this "difference" in approaching life is a public one or one lived in private.

Either way however, they feel and know themselves to just not follow the blue print proposed by the family,time period, gender or societal conditions they live in.

Chazz Bono Uranus opposite North Node in Aries orb 2

Christine Jorgensen Moon-Pluto opposite natally but in aspect to the North Node i.e North Node aspect to Moon 0 degree orb and North Node to Pluto 5 degrees.

Caitlyn Jenner Mercury-Neptune conjunct in Libra opposing North Node in Aries orb 2(Mercury) and 1(Nep) respectively.

David Bowie didnt identify himself as intersex, but he did do some cross dressing in his day. He has Uranus conjunct North node in Gemini.

He also married someone of African descent....gosh golly my goodness! and i think Venus in Sag opposing North node is party to that.

posted August 07, 2016 07:14 AM            

quote:

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if it's female to male

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posted August 07, 2016 01:47 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquagembaby:
I have a friend that is going to get gender reassignment surgery. But I really don't see anything in his chart that might indicate anything. But it is an interesting topic.

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posted August 07, 2016 04:38 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Kiimberly:
no need to be rude, Electro DGX. Astrology has a sea of endless meaning and what applies to one doesn't apply to all, but there's no need to express your feelings on a path you haven't chosen on a post that doesn't apply to you. An aquarius stellium may be what you think makes you special (I see you getting extremely protective all over here of aquarius placement as if you own it), but it's not yours.

It's horrifying to me that even astrologers can be so cruel and self-righteous. The fatalism of this board is crazy. You can't own placements, signs, or energies. Sorry that uranus and aquarius show shirking of tradition and societal values, yet you think your closed mind embodies it.

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You know what, this is ridiculous. If you thought I was being rude on a basis that involved finding disgust in other people getting sex changes, then that's not what I meant. I was speaking from a personal viewpoint as to why I disliked the idea of getting a sex change. I don't care if anyone else chooses to get a sex change and to add on, I'm not trying to force my ideas onto others. What I stated is that the idea of getting a sex change, in relevance to myself, is what disgusts me. I don't care if other people choose to get it. I wasn't even being protective of my placements, I was just shocked that people would associate Aquarius/Uranus with sex-changes, even if I somehow predicted that this would happen anyways.

PixieJane's post directly after mine summarized it the best possible way. Aside from that, as an Aquarius, and as an individual in general, I have the right to state why I think the idea of associating Aquarius/Uranus with sex-changes isn't right to me. I may not be Aquarius in itself, but I do embody the Aquarian energy, and in doing so, can state my experiences with this energy in any way I choose. Or am I not supposed to because I'm so "cruel", "rude", and "closed-minded" for making such a simple, stupid statement? You need to get a reality check and understand that astrologers are people TOO, and we TOO have different drives, motivations, feelings, etc. Astrologers aren't above the average human as if they are somehow enlightened; they are just as human as those that aren't, and that can include evil tendencies.

Why should I have to act super nice and follow up to people's expectations of me because I'm an astrologer and/or I'm interested in astrology? Astrologers are also humans trying to grasp the reality that they live in, and using astrology is one of their methods in doing so. I don't have to care about other peoples feelings, regardless if it is a better way to approach the reality or not. Don't chastise me and make false accusations of my character just because you overreacted to a stupid post I made. I can be ruder than that, and I will show it if need be. I am human, after all.

posted August 07, 2016 11:39 PM            

The underlying principle of actually changing one's gender is transformation -- profound, very personal transformation: Pluto.

If your logic is that it is someone being 'weird' or 'odd', therefore it must be Uranus/Aquarius, then it would be good for you to study astrology longer and harder. And it would be even better to listen to what gender queer people are saying to us about what they are experiencing.

I made a similar point in the Noel Tyl forum a while back when he started a thread there about how such gender changes have to do with sex and sex is seen in the 5th and 8th houses. This was astrologese covering a profound mis-understanding of the issues. Those who have gender change or want it, have been telling us -- if you listen to them -- that they don't feel inside[b] that they are the gender their gonads indicate. That is a Moon and Ascendant/1st house matter, sometimes Neptune involved as well. It has nothing whatsoever to do with wanting to have sex another way, or with sexual activity. It is Asc/1st = [b]identity matter. That is why it is spoken of in terms of gender identity.

In some cases, children are born with gonads of both genders, and have someone else's choice (parent, doctor) forced upon them, because They can't be both!!! Why not? Inconvenient for our little boxes?

Gender is not absolute binary, as Pixie Jane pointed out with her link to the article on intersex. Gender binary comes from societally reinforced roles as to what it expects of boys and girls and how it prefers them to appear.

You can't get the astrology right on this until you've first understood the what the people are saying who are experiencing it.

But in saying Pluto/transformation, in no way should it become part of common parlance in astrology that someone with Pluto near their Asc, Sun, etc, 'might have a sex change.' Let's just not go there.

Stop using astrology as another set of boxes to put people in. Instead, use it as a language in which we can better understand the myriad manifestations of the human condition and our process of soul growth evolution together.

posted August 07, 2016 11:41 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Queen Salome:
What do you think is prominent in charts of people who want to change their sex? Is it possible to see it in natal chart?

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So to answer your question, it is possible to see personal identity issues, and the potential for undergoing a major transformation, but no, I am not saying you can see 'sex change' in the chart of a baby whose just been born. Nor do I think this is something to look for.