posted August 23, 2020 01:51 PM            

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Originally posted by Moonbeth:
hmmmm interesting.
I'm a 1st house Virgo sun, conjunct ASC in Leo.
My 10th house is Taurus, Venus is in Leo too, conjunct ASC (though in the 12th).
My MC is loosely (8°) conjunct Chiron.
My moon is Capricorn, in the 5th, though my fifth house is Sagittarius, Jupiter in 3rd H Scorpio sextiles my sun.
I don't want fame. Fame to me only means exposition and is quite empty in itself.
I'd much rather have a craft that provides for myself my entire life, unbeknownst to the world, than be famous for anything.

Edit: forgot to mention Neptune (Sag, 4th) rules my 8th, trines Venus and parallels moon.

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I forgot to mention actual signs. Virgo by default couldn't care less about fame. Capricorn and Scorpio too. Capricorn Moon wants just like you said something solid that can provide for an entire life. Leadership and respect too, but not the spotlight.

Signs that are most likely to become famous (and enjoy it) are all fire signs with actually Sagittarius leading the pack. Then Pisces, Libra, Cancer, and to some extent Aquarius, but for them it mostly happens by accident/against their will. Gemini's fame actually depends on their geographical location. Taurus is more about local recognition.

posted August 23, 2020 05:26 PM              

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Originally posted by Seline:
I forgot to mention actual signs. Virgo by default couldn't care less about fame. Capricorn and Scorpio too. Capricorn Moon wants just like you said something solid that can provide for an entire life. Leadership and respect too, but not the spotlight.

Signs that are most likely to become famous (and enjoy it) are all fire signs with actually Sagittarius leading the pack. Then Pisces, Libra, Cancer, and to some extent Aquarius, but for them it mostly happens by accident/against their will. Gemini's fame actually depends on their geographical location. Taurus is more about local recognition.

Your 5th is in Sag, with Jupiter in Scorpio (Scorpio hates public exposure) in 3rd house. Where is Mercury? 12th house Leo Venus is the backstage, and likes to be the spectator more then performer. Neptune in 4th/Pisces 8th actually reinforces the need for security and having something palpable. Fame is fickle. But, you could become someone who is famous (not necessarily internationally famous, locally very much) and never be under public spotlight (play writers, composers, directors, stage or costume designers, curators, general managers or owners of 5-star restaurants, CEOs, people behind the scenes. Crime lords?).

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ehhh, while I’ll say what you say absolutely goes for me, do not underestimate Virgo’s mutability and the idea of doing Virgo things through the reach of fame that can be appealing to our pragmatic nature. They all had/have distinct Virgo stances about their fame, but I don’t think Freddie Mercury, Beyoncé or Michael Jackson can be said to simply “couldn’t care less about fame, by default”.
Also, in my case I tend to see the first house sun as magnifying the Virgo in me… now! It wasn’t always so, especially in youth where it actually allowed for my Leo rising to come out more and take more space, and to this day I sometimes have issues conciliating the two as they’re both strong energies in me.
Then my venus is in the 12th ok, and I relate to a LOT I read about 12th house venus ok, but it’s conjunct my Asc, so, close to my first house. The same way my Mars is at the end of my 3rd and I relate way more to 4th readings as the planet is said to be “attracted” by the following house when coming close to it, some 12th venuses, especially in signs like Leo, may very well behave as pure 1st houses. So, I’d say the whole is a little bit more subtle than just discarding the placements you did mention because the signs don’t match, I think signs, houses and aspects operate as an organic whole, and regardless of how many times I’ve seen people here claim that one prevails (usually aspects), I have yet to see someone pull comprehensive rules that never fail to explain why a placement expresses itself so strongly in one person and not so much in another where it is similarly located and surrounded. There’s an overall chemistry and I think the fame question is particularly sensitive to it because it also involves extra “diegetic” elements to the birth chart. I was a very happy outgoing, super artsy little girl who actually envisioned fame as an outcome simply because everything I wanted to do implied it should you succeed …until I was abused and bullied and I devoted myself to being invisible and forgotten and denied myself the things that brought me joy. I was locally very famous you may say as there wasn’t a child within a 10 miles radius that didn’t hate my guts. Even the bullied, bullied me.

Mercury is Libra in the 2nd house, sextile Uranus and square Neptune (think it inconjuncts venus and mars too)

posted August 25, 2020 07:48 PM            

ehhh, while I’ll say what you say absolutely goes for me, do not underestimate Virgo’s mutability and the idea of doing Virgo things through the reach of fame that can be appealing to our pragmatic nature. They all had/have distinct Virgo stances about their fame, but I don’t think Freddie Mercury, Beyoncé or Michael Jackson can be said to simply “couldn’t care less about fame, by default”.

No! I don't underestimate at all! I made the comment based on the general symbolism
By default meaning as the most selfless, humblest, "others above yourself" sign of all. Unless something else in the chart says otherwise, I don't see Virgo seeking fame or giving any extra special value to it. And the Sun always comes through, which would explain why many famous Virgos have/acquire at some point a "meh" response to fame. Using fame as the means of xxx - yes, I agree that's very Virgo thing to do. I would mention as an example the forever breathtaking Keanu Reeves. That's The One true Virgo, at least in my opinion.

Also, in my case I tend to see the first house sun as magnifying the Virgo in me… now! It wasn’t always so, especially in youth where it actually allowed for my Leo rising to come out more and take more space, and to this day I sometimes have issues conciliating the two as they’re both strong energies in me.

I mean, that makes sense. We're all acting by our Rising sign rules until the age of maturity. I used to act as my Rising too during teens and early twenties, then the Sun took over.
My only first house placement is my lovely Moon, and as much as it pains me to admit it, I can see myself very clearly spoon feeding the neighborhood some time in the future, on a whim (Cancer Moon, with a twist).

Then my venus is in the 12th ok, and I relate to a LOT I read about 12th house venus ok, but it’s conjunct my Asc, so, close to my first house. The same way my Mars is at the end of my 3rd and I relate way more to 4th readings as the planet is said to be “attracted” by the following house when coming close to it, some 12th venuses, especially in signs like Leo, may very well behave as pure 1st houses.

True! I noticed that too. Actually, this does have a name, kill me I can't recall it. Shadow something.

So, I’d say the whole is a little bit more subtle than just discarding the placements you did mention because the signs don’t match, I think signs, houses and aspects operate as an organic whole, and regardless of how many times I’ve seen people here claim that one prevails (usually aspects), I have yet to see someone pull comprehensive rules that never fail to explain why a placement expresses itself so strongly in one person and not so much in another where it is similarly located and surrounded. There’s an overall chemistry and I think the fame question is particularly sensitive to it because it also involves extra “diegetic” elements to the birth chart.

Ah, no. There is no definite xyz formula for fame. Wasn't my intention to make it sound like that. I was just listing few things of a top of my head (and I can suffer from vagueness).
There's potential - through certain signs, houses, aspects, patterns etc. that have be proven to be repetitive and doing their job in the charts of celebrities. Aspect or a placement by itself doesn't tell much. There are ones that have set in stone interpretations while other can have ridiculous number of variations. I absolutely agree with your approach to chart reading. I mean, that's the right way of reading!
The activation of fame potential (or any potential) is conditioned by our environment. Meaning that no chart exists in a vacuum, it's constantly reshaped from the moment we were born- by the place, the family we were born or went to, the way we were raised, the people we "accidentally" met along the way, circumstances over which we had no control, then our personal decisions and actions. That's why two people with very similar placements or even the same charts go different paths. People are not given the same opportunities. The Plane Jane of natal charts can become famous by association, once that is over, fame is gone too. Some are born into fame and have just enough potential to maintain it. Others need to be partnered cause their own potential is weak, while combined goes through the roof (the case of many short lived music bands). Some people's charts are so powerful that there’s no way they won’t be famous. Plus there are some movements up there in the sky. To understand why a person becomes famous, I think the charts of that "environment" should be read too. Actually, I would do this for any chart. And extensively interview the person in question. Under condition they're alive and well, of course

I was a very happy outgoing, super artsy little girl who actually envisioned fame as an outcome simply because everything I wanted to do implied it should you succeed …until I was abused and bullied and I devoted myself to being invisible and forgotten and denied myself the things that brought me joy. I was locally very famous you may say as there wasn’t a child within a 10 miles radius that didn’t hate my guts. Even the bullied, bullied me.

The environment Which brings me to the question of resolve. Why didn't you fight back?

Love that Neptune 4th.Pisces 8th thing, makes a lot of sense 😊 and yes, while my life path may have affected things greatly, the ending is actually spot on, I was reading nodding yes, yes, yes those are all things I could have done/considered then you had crime lord? and I was Ooh, interesting!!!! lol but, nah, of course, illegality is even fickler than fame, but otherwise… It’s not like the system has any integrity that I’d feel bad conning it… (No idea if that logic is Virgo/Scorpio/Cappy, but I like to think it’s all 3 lol)

Yes, yes. I can hear you cackling into the dark

posted August 25, 2020 08:04 PM            

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Originally posted by teasel:
My Sun rules my 10th, but I was born to be in the background. My Sun is in the 6th. I have Jupiter in the 5th, trine Neptune in the 2nd, both trine the MC. I always wanted to do my own thing, something creative. Jupiter square Saturn, and opposed Pluto. I used to have the drive to do something, but I didn't like trying to "sell myself". Mars in Pisces, square Moon/Venus/Nodes, ruling my Sun, would also point to something creative, but I just stopped most of it, when we moved again (and I hadn't wanted to). I got involved in other things.

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posted August 25, 2020 09:04 PM            

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Originally posted by Seline:
I have Jupiter square Saturn that gives me a lot of trouble. I can only imagine what it actually does in combination with Pluto

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I think it can contribute to apathy, but also increase motivation, when in the right mood/under the right conditions. Jupiter-Pluto is supposed to be good financially, but I've never been close to being rich.

posted August 29, 2020 04:43 PM              

I actually did not mention Keanu on purpose because he's classical Virgo in so many ways and since you went classic Virgo on my Sun placement to explain why the rest of the placements I had and you mentioned would mean less, I had to pick atypical Virgos
I agree though, I do believe the sun always comes through, something that gets crushed by every synastry reader ever, but I consequently do believe good sun-sun compatibility goes a lonnnnnnnnng way too <3

I mean, that makes sense. We're all acting by our Rising sign rules until the age of maturity. I used to act as my Rising too during teens and early twenties, then the Sun took over.
My only first house placement is my lovely Moon, and as much as it pains me to admit it, I can see myself very clearly spoon feeding the neighborhood some time in the future, on a whim (Cancer Moon, with a twist).

I thought (well, was taught) that we, especially women, tended to act out our moons in youth, the rising being more of something others perceive, like a custom made day suit, but we wore it with our moon first before growing into our sun... I think it'd be true for me, as much as I Leo-ed out in youth, it was always very conscious it was a front, I do think child me had a lot of cappy attitudes in retrospect (and I am severely influenced by the fact I literally climbed all day long as I type this lol)

Interesting, I haven't always been lucky with Cancers (suns, moons or risings lol) so I tend to not see the selflessness in the sign, I'm way more opened to Pisces' love of others... I'd see a Cancer spoon feeding all their family members rather than the neighbourhood, so my question would be why do you see yourself doing that? (I know why I would, but very interested in the crab take on it

True! I noticed that too. Actually, this does have a name, kill me I can't recall it. Shadow something.

Yes! Thank you! there is an actual name lol don't have it, I had made a post about that, trying to know when you start reading in the following house, in the case of my mars it's pretty obvious how both energies are present but one clearly feels like 'the placement' to me so whatever anyone will provide as a rule I'll stick to at least reading both houses in every scenario, but yep in the case of 12th house going into the 1st, the differences between the 2 houses are so obviously massive, I can imagine one completely 'eating' the other.

Ah, no. There is no definite xyz formula for fame. Wasn't my intention to make it sound like that. I was just listing few things of a top of my head (and I can suffer from vagueness).
There's potential - through certain signs, houses, aspects, patterns etc. that have be proven to be repetitive and doing their job in the charts of celebrities. Aspect or a placement by itself doesn't tell much. There are ones that have set in stone interpretations while other can have ridiculous number of variations. I absolutely agree with your approach to chart reading. I mean, that's the right way of reading!
The activation of fame potential (or any potential) is conditioned by our environment. Meaning that no chart exists in a vacuum, it's constantly reshaped from the moment we were born- by the place, the family we were born or went to, the way we were raised, the people we "accidentally" met along the way, circumstances over which we had no control, then our personal decisions and actions. That's why two people with very similar placements or even the same charts go different paths. People are not given the same opportunities. The Plane Jane of natal charts can become famous by association, once that is over, fame is gone too. Some are born into fame and have just enough potential to maintain it. Others need to be partnered cause their own potential is weak, while combined goes through the roof (the case of many short lived music bands). Some people's charts are so powerful that there’s no way they won’t be famous. Plus there are some movements up there in the sky. To understand why a person becomes famous, I think the charts of that "environment" should be read too. Actually, I would do this for any chart. And extensively interview the person in question. Under condition they're alive and well, of course

I read all that twice and each time: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.... and sorry I went in head first about taking your first reply a bit too literally (I do decidedly suffer from vagueness, poor spoonie brain, especially these days) 😊

[/b]

The environment Which brings me to the question of resolve. Why didn't you fight back?

Who says I didn't fight back?
Fighting back is not a way out of bullying. Fighting back is just that: fighting. When you fight too long, just to exist and the bullying just keeps coming (you grow from that to meet with racism, social prejudice, sexism… the tragedy of school bullying is that childhood is about the only time you can hope to be let be in bloody peace and build up to survive the everyday grand scale bullying that is adult life when you’re not a sheltered lucky sod) you exhaust yourself and end up as beaten down as you'd be if you took it lying down. That's one thing that gets me SO mad about activism for example, when people say Nelson Mandela or MLK are such inspirations... I'm like no, that's so rude and horrible to say. these men are heroes, but I don't see the inspiration, they both paid the highest price for having fought a fight that was imposed on them for a most unfair reason. Their fight makes me ashamed to be a human being, it doesn't "inspire" me.

Yes, yes. I can hear you cackling into the dark

posted September 13, 2020 11:03 PM            

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Originally posted by teasel:
I think it can contribute to apathy, but also increase motivation, when in the right mood/under the right conditions. Jupiter-Pluto is supposed to be good financially, but I've never been close to being rich.

How does Jupiter-Saturn affect you?

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I have Uranus in the mix, so highs and lows and a lot of impatience. But I'm working on it!

posted September 13, 2020 11:17 PM            

[b]I thought (well, was taught) that we, especially women, tended to act out our moons in youth, the rising being more of something others perceive, like a custom made day suit, but we wore it with our moon first before growing into our sun... I think it'd be true for me, as much as I Leo-ed out in youth, it was always very conscious it was a front, I do think child me had a lot of cappy attitudes in retrospect (and I am severely influenced by the fact I literally climbed all day long as I type this lol)

I was taught something else. It might be wrong, but it does resonate with me. As children we act more as our Mercury. Once we hit our puberty we switch to our Venus and play it out until marriage/motherhood/middle age etc. Then we take on the role of the Moon. We play all these roles within its symbolism but in a way dictated by our Sun (so yes, I agree with you about the good Sun-Sun compatibility too. It's a must). The roles upgrade one another and eventually form one mature whole. The Rising is instinctive and it's on every time we encounter something or someone new. That’s why it’s overactive in our youth, we go through many things for the very first time. As we (the Sun) mature we get more conscious of its behavior and can control it. It is def. custom made suit, and a shield. About child Moon, yeah.. Tell me something about Cappy's love for high places.. I have Cappy Venus:)

Who says I didn't fight back?
Fighting back is not a way out of bullying. Fighting back is just that: fighting. When you fight too long, just to exist and the bullying just keeps coming (you grow from that to meet with racism, social prejudice, sexism… the tragedy of school bullying is that childhood is about the only time you can hope to be let be in bloody peace and build up to survive the everyday grand scale bullying that is adult life when you’re not a sheltered lucky sod) you exhaust yourself and end up as beaten down as you'd be if you took it lying down. That's one thing that gets me SO mad about activism for example, when people say Nelson Mandela or MLK are such inspirations... I'm like no, that's so rude and horrible to say. these men are heroes, but I don't see the inspiration, they both paid the highest price for having fought a fight that was imposed on them for a most unfair reason. Their fight makes me ashamed to be a human being, it doesn't "inspire" me.

posted September 13, 2020 11:39 PM            

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Originally posted by ana_bee:
What do you mean by that? Do you mean that you agree that there’s no indication of ‘celebrity’ in a natal chart?

I was actually hoping that there was some magic placement or asteroid that would explain all of that, since ‘incarnating‘ as the next Elvis as opposed to just your regular dude across the street, would actually mean sth, karmically speaking. But maybe the universe is indifferent to our social standing and impact in the world..

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I would say no one is regular, the univetse IS blind to our social standing. It is not blind to our impact, however. The best singers could easily be the anonimous song birds, who are oblivious of the honour they are given by poets, and still their more important role is connected with trees and plants of all kinds, to growth, and to their unique communication with each other. Why, you sing while you speak those common, underestimated words to one another, and you did not know!

posted September 18, 2020 10:03 AM            

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Originally posted by Ayelet:
I would say no one is regular, the univetse IS blind to our social standing. It is not blind to our impact, however. The best singers could easily be the anonimous song birds, who are oblivious of the honour they are given by poets, and still their more important role is connected with trees and plants of all kinds, to growth, and to their unique communication with each other. Why, you sing while you speak those common, underestimated words to one another, and you did not know!

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With song birds.. do you mean actual birds? I don’ t think animals and humans have the same karma! Animals are not here to project meaning into their life, hence they’re not accountable for anything they do, at least this is my understanding. Of course a bird can’t care less whether they’re famous.. but people care, even the ones who don’t care. On a subconscious level they are still very well aware of it, at least in Western society, since we cultivate celebrity culture. Other nations have maybe different values.

posted September 18, 2020 10:29 AM            

You get a platform to influence millions of people just by waking up each morning and picking your brand of coffee, or the shirt you wear.

The people who get picked to do that must have some prior karma (good or bad, since fame isn’t necessarily positive!) and this karma should be visible in their horoscope, I‘d think.

I wrote that maybe the universe is indifferent to our social standing, but I‘m really not sure to what extend. In 500 years people will most likely have an idea who Elvis was! Just like everybody now knows, who Mozart or Beethoven were! That must be visible somewhere, if your existence or the work you do (good or bad) influences millions of people throughout many generations! It’s hard to imagine that this would be insignificant to the universe or our soul’s evolution. That’s major karma! Imagine to really mess up on a global scale, like Hitler did, or to some extend also Trump or other ‘global players’ !

Most people who have their moment of fame now, will be forgotten, but there will be the ones who will last through generations! Marilyn Monroe for example or James Dean. These people could‘ve been long forgotten by now.. there were so many starlets in Hollywood and many led rather tragic lives, yet it’s always Marilyn who seems like this beautiful, lost child many of us sympathize with. She became an icon, despite being rather average looking! She was not the most glamorous or most attractive actress of her time! She wasn’t the first and certainly not the only blonde bombshell either, since that was a pretty popular look, back then. She also didn’t have a knock-out body, and without the make-up her face was rather average. She also wasn’t particularly skilled as an actress. I’m not meaning to sound derogatory, I’m just trying to be objective here. Yet I know the exact moment when I saw her on screen for the first time and how I felt! I was 5 at that time in the 90s! By then I had seen many (fake&real) blondes on tv and in real life, but I was completely mesmerized and in love with her! There was just sth very special about her, that even I as a 5 -year old hetero-sexual girl could feel, and my chosen hair color isn’t even blonde! I just deeply sympathized with her. I too had a rather lonely childhood, and without prior knowing her story or even knowing who she was, I felt comforted and less lonely, just by watching her. Now I know why I reacted that way, synastry and all..
her Saturn on my SN
her Moon conj my IC
my IC conj her DSC
her Sun conj my Moon and Vertex
her Venus conj my Sun/Moon midpoint..

To this day, she has a global impact and not everyone’s natal chart gets significant aspects with her!
It definitely transcends synastry, otherwise she wouldn’t be this coveted. A lot of people, especially women, feel the way I feel about her. And many were inspired to get into acting, because of her!

So I‘m really wondering in which way her, or other icons’ karma would differ from the rest of us!

Maybe it’s not aspects or house placements, maybe it’s more about midpoints and parallels and some asteroids we haven’t explored, yet.

If someone could check on that, someone whose also interested in that matter, that would be amazing!! I‘m not good at this.

I find it pretty cool to predict the next big legend!!

I’d rule out house placements, tbh! Sure 10th and 11th are very public houses, but a lot of really famous people have their personal planets all over the place, and a lot of non-famous people have 1st/5th/10th/11th Sun, Moon, Venus .. and maybe they‘re locally known or kind of ‚in your face‘ - personalities, but no one cares about them outside their local bubble.