posted December 19, 2020 08:21 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dumuzi:
🤷‍♀️ if you go by where the stars actually are i'm lacking air

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posted December 20, 2020 06:33 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda_S:
Isn't your Venus in Libra? Libra is air. Or what do you mean by 'stars'? Oh you mean tropical vs sidereal?

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tropical isn't based on the observable locations of stars, if you go outside and look at where things fall you aren't going to see the tropical system you will see sidereal

i only use tropical to communicate here otherwise i don't actually because it isn't as accurate and it isnt observable

in tropical yes i have libra i also have a good deal of fire placements in tropical affecting that and i kind of have to wonder why you think only water would equate with feelers rather than fire as well

feelers aren't so uncommon that only one element would indicate them whereas the other 3 are all associated with thinking

even in tarot this sort of sentiment isn't expressed both wands and cups are associated with feelings (different nature but wands can be indicative of passion and so on) and earth and air are more associated with thinking and practical concerns

even if we use tropical/western my earth placements in tropical each are aspected by neptune (sun is trine, mars is loosely conjunct, mars is also loosely conjunct my ic from the opposite side) and my only air in libra is aspected by fire from each of the fire signs, my sun is also sextile pluto

since you use placidus (which i personally don't because it doesn't hold up well in many cases) i also have a first house pluto in scorpio

in addition to a fire moon on an angle and a cancer midheaven

you're looking with the water signs are the only ones who really feel bias (though i do have those in the observable zodiac, sidereal/vedic) which is a huge misconception people have, it's like going this person has a lot of pisces they'll definitely be empathetic and sweet

posted December 20, 2020 07:05 AM            

What method do you use in place of Placidus?

The reason for using Tropical myself, is simply cuz I relate to its placements better. Assuming the method of interpretation is the same. I can probably make sense of it the other way around, but by my sheer physical appearance, Tropical fits rather than sidereal. And of course the rest of the placements as well, not to get wrapped up here.

Besides, given that we're not actually placed near those planets, I don't think it's fair to say that we receive the energy in the same manner. The same reason location affects traits differently, I'm gonna assume this would be the same. Then again I didn't do actual research on it, but this is just my understanding of it. That if one was born closer to those planets (if the possibility was there) the timing would be adjusted to match sidereal timing or closer to it.

posted December 20, 2020 07:18 AM            

I'll have to sit with this a bit though, cuz I don't think my basic traits are that of an Aries Sun (and/or its aspects and everything as a whole to my Sun). It is on a cusp though (29 degrees) which would likely alter the basic Aries traits. Certain things are definitely missing though, like my strong lunar side. Which I can't really find that many pointers to in my sidereal chart.

posted December 20, 2020 08:21 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda_S:
I have to agree, I didn't necessarily think twice prior to writing it (and here I am claiming to be a thinker lol). Fire too is feeling based.

What method do you use in place of Placidus?

The reason for using Tropical myself, is simply cuz I relate to its placements better. Assuming the method of interpretation is the same. I can probably make sense of it the other way around, but by my sheer physical appearance, Tropical fits rather than sidereal. And of course the rest of the placements as well, not to get wrapped up here.

Besides, given that we're not actually placed near those planets, I don't think it's fair to say that we receive the energy in the same manner. The same reason location affects traits differently, I'm gonna assume this would be the same. Then again I didn't do actual research on it, but this is just my understanding of it. That if one was born closer to those planets (if the possibility was there) the timing would be adjusted to match sidereal timing or closer to it.

But anyway do you use whole sign system or...?

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i use whole sign, holds up better particularly when the houses are really uneven, and typically where placidus works is when the houses are close to their whole sign positions anyway right down to the planets at the cusp coloring the next house thing (often that means that these planets would have just been in the next house in whole sign to begin with)

sidereal interpretations require some knowledge of vedic so no not exactly the same

tropical is just lacking and from an occult standpoint it does little good to not be able to view these things in relation to things you're doing

if someone was doing a ritual that required a full moon they're not going to wait a week later when the moon is waning to do it and expect those same results, tropical is the equivalent of that and thus sort of useless in that regard

you can read a person with it sure, but any representation of that person will bring you to them you can pull cards and learn things about their inner workings and their life at any given moment

so this does not impress me on a larger scale because it's just how things are

>cant find my strong lunar side in a first house moon in sidereal
what? did you really say that?

posted December 21, 2020 09:28 AM            

So say the great conjunction happening today of Saturn/Jupiter, is it not actually happening in Aqua? But rather in Cap? Say if I observe it in the sky tonight, which sign will it be associated with 'observably'?

posted December 21, 2020 09:46 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda_S:
Interesting.

So say the great conjunction happening today of Saturn/Jupiter, is it not actually happening in Aqua? But rather in Cap? Say if I observe it in the sky tonight, which sign will it be associated with 'observably'?

And regarding my lunar traits in sidereal, Moon is actually in my 12th house, unless I use whole sign system. But without using whole sign, my lunar traits aren't really there at all. But I guess you use whole sign so for you it works in tandem.

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if you look at the sky tonight you'll see it in capricorn not aquarius because tropical is based in seasons rather than the location of the stars

so you could get some star id app and look and you'll see it labeled as being in capricorn

yeah taurus moon with taurus lagna would be 1st house taurus making your moon very prominent and explaining why you feel a strong connection with that

when i do quick readings i actually don't read sign but planets and their relation to each other and the houses they fall in, i look at sign last

not to say it has zero importance, because it does alter things a lot, but because for convenience it's easier to give a lazy reading without it

posted December 21, 2020 09:53 AM            

Thanks 😊

posted December 21, 2020 10:04 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda_S:
I'm so surprised this is literally the first time I'm hearing about this.

Thanks 😊

And yeah same I also look to planets first, but signs are more nuanced I guess? Since I know myself that is, this huge part of me which is only really in signs in tropical, not a prominent Moon in itself. Just massive Cancerian placements lol. I mean I guess I feel it more than it shows in my chart, so was naturally looking for it and yeah I guess with whole signs in conjunction with sidereal it makes a lotta sense.

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that's why i think i mentioned it helps to learn about the vedic system when you convert (i might've said that idk, if i didn't well am now)

have you looked into nakshatras at all? i think we spoke about them in the past most people find them legit

signs are good but like if i'm being lazy i won't bother, and i'm often lazy

i'm actually a bit rusty with chart reading i don't do it often anymore and when i do go over charts with other people it's typically vedic system because i mostly interact with people who use it (partially because observable nature)

and yeah tonight when you look at the conjunction (i'm just assuming most people here will) try an app to check it out

i'm not the best with recognizing constellations by sight but there's plenty of **** you can put on your phone for it

from an occult practitioner standpoint tropical isn't a good system to use on a day to say basis, i'd say it's helpful to know because otherwise you can't learn anything from western astrologers but for the most part it's unnecessary

posted December 21, 2020 06:00 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda_S:
I remember the time when I thought I was an INTJ, I really couldn't stand other INTJ's cockiness and sense of entitlement. It didn't occur to me though that I may not be that type, but in retrospect that is likely a good indicator. (Or maybe not lol)

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INTJs are more outwardly opinionated and sure of themselves due to the cognitive stack so it makes sense that they can be seen as cocky. INTJs use Te/extraverted thinking backed by introverted intuition. basically INTJs interact with the world with their thoughts with the strongest function (Ni/intuition) relatively hidden while INTPs interact with the world with intuition with the strongest function (Ti/thinking) relatively hidden. these two types are considered introverted because the strongest function is introverted. i think one of the biggest tells for INTJ vs. INTP is how sure of yourself you are. INTPs second guess themselves, even in the moment, are very meta, are constantly collecting new data and because of this openness, typically dont see a lot of ideas come into fruition.

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda_S:

Based on what this one person told me, that INTP's very much go by the book and do things cuz that's what you're supposed to. Which I don't think I really relate to. So I guess I'm curious, do you relate to that description?

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i dont relate to that. that is actually very opposite. i can tell from your posts you dont relate to that either. you seem to think for yourself and like to do your own thing whether accepted by society or not. that description sounds more like ESFJ which is INTPs shadow type. an ESFJ cognitive stack is directly inverted to an INTP stack. ESFJs strongest function is extraverted feeling so they are really really people oriented. harmony/tact is more important to an ESFJ than logic/truth. ESFJs love tradition and not disrupting the status quo. INTPs love to think outside the box and love autonomy. as with all the shadow pairs, these two types could learn a lot from each other if they could get past the initial disgust. lol

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda_S:

Also, do you consider yourself socially awkward? INTP's are said to be this way. And although I do 'feel' socially awkward, people tell me I'm not and actually the opposite which I can't understand how. I really feel that I'm just socially awkward.

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i do feel socially awkward and people dont see it either. INTPs are also said to be social chameleons. ironically its probably due to attempts at eradicating awkwardness in social settings that this talent is learned. the awkwardness doesnt really go away but is just not so obvious anymore? female INTPs tend to be a lot less awkward than their male counterparts due to social conditioning. generally speaking, women are expected by society to be warmer and emote more. female INTPs are typically more exposed to this aspect of life and tend to be better assimilated. i was/am part of a female INTP group where this was discussed somewhat. most didnt look like typical nerds that didnt care about outer appearances like the text book descriptions imply. a majority were into makeup and didnt look oblivious to social protocols - although there would still be many cases of mismatched outfits/idc attitudes because it wasnt that big of a deal.

im also thinking communications can get muddled with introverted/extraverted behavior on the internet and may have a lot to do with my own confusion with the INTP groups. have you ever met a group of introverts in real life vs. the internet? its like night and day.

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda_S:

Also, another reason I think I may be an INFP is cuz I keep on typing myself differently lol, which I heard is very much an INFP trait. Besides, I really relate to its general description although I understand that may not mean anything and cognitive stacks are more telling.

Can you tell me how your inferior function plays out in real life?

One person told me that I may be an INFP with a weak F, which fits.

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INFPs strongest function is introverted feeling but will normally interact with the world using intuition. their weakest function is actually extraverted thinking so in that sense are not so great at expressing thoughts. decisions are mainly based on what they feel about a situation. like INTPs, INFPs second guess themselves too. this is an example of P vs. J, where P is mutable and J is fixed.

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda_S:
Lol! I yell-cry, but I dunno if it's necessarily when I'm stressed.

When I'm stressed or faced with a situation that I'm supposed to be emotional about (like an actual example that I caused by mistake which almost caused someone to get killed lol, when I nearly caused an accident on the road and if the car would've gone a bit faster he would've not been able to slow down, ending up killing a guy because of me)

In the situation above, instead of feeling emotional or terribly sorry, that guilt turned into extreme coldness. I wasn't emotional at all. I remember the rest of the day everything that happened I was just extremely oblivious to and didn't feel a thing.

Or perhaps does that mean that my inferior function is in fact Fe?

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posted December 22, 2020 04:16 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dumuzi:
that's why i think i mentioned it helps to learn about the vedic system when you convert (i might've said that idk, if i didn't well am now)

have you looked into nakshatras at all? i think we spoke about them in the past most people find them legit

signs are good but like if i'm being lazy i won't bother, and i'm often lazy

i'm actually a bit rusty with chart reading i don't do it often anymore and when i do go over charts with other people it's typically vedic system because i mostly interact with people who use it (partially because observable nature)

and yeah tonight when you look at the conjunction (i'm just assuming most people here will) try an app to check it out

i'm not the best with recognizing constellations by sight but there's plenty of **** you can put on your phone for it

from an occult practitioner standpoint tropical isn't a good system to use on a day to say basis, i'd say it's helpful to know because otherwise you can't learn anything from western astrologers but for the most part it's unnecessary

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I started looking into Vedic, just got sidetracked.

My world is a bit shaken up right now lol. The fact that I believed Tropical is where the planets are actually at, then reading that it's just a different set of calculations... Yeah I used an app, now I'm thinking of getting a telescope lol to see for myself. I dunno what to believe in anymore 🤣

One reason that makes me believe sidereal makes sense... When I got married, transit Pluto was conjunct transiting NN to the degree. Same when I got divorced, transiting Pluto was conjunct natal NN. I couldn't understand why it was Pluto that was involved, I didn't see Pluto as a major player in my chart at all. Now with Pluto as my DSC ruler it kinda makes sense.

It's just... Maybe we're even off with our timing lol, I'm in the midst of reading about sidereal time in general. Just everything I'm recalibrating right now.

Now I'm not sure if I should use Placidus, whole or equal house systems. There are probably reasons why one would use one over the other, I just need to take a step back lol to observe everything from afar again.

posted December 22, 2020 09:21 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda_S:
I started looking into Vedic, just got sidetracked.

My world is a bit shaken up right now lol. The fact that I believed Tropical is where the planets are actually at, then reading that it's just a different set of calculations... Yeah I used an app, now I'm thinking of getting a telescope lol to see for myself. I dunno what to believe in anymore 🤣

One reason that makes me believe sidereal makes sense... When I got married, transit Pluto was conjunct transiting NN to the degree. Same when I got divorced, transiting Pluto was conjunct natal NN. I couldn't understand why it was Pluto that was involved, I didn't see Pluto as a major player in my chart at all. Now with Pluto as my DSC ruler it kinda makes sense.

It's just... Maybe we're even off with our timing lol, I'm in the midst of reading about sidereal time in general. Just everything I'm recalibrating right now.

Now I'm not sure if I should use Placidus, whole or equal house systems. There are probably reasons why one would use one over the other, I just need to take a step back lol to observe everything from afar again.

I'm curious to know if back in the day... Did they all have different systems to calculate the planets locations? Is it just a recent thing since we're not actually 'observing' it?

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tropical is still good to know because it never hurts to be able to use another system, but you'll find references to sidereal even in agrippa's work and books like picatrix and the magus

i was actually having this conversation just yesterday with a couple of people, because i was discussing why knowing exactly where things are is useful in occult applications

though tropical was closer to sidereal in the past, it's largely tied to the seasons due to sign representation

aries being spring capricorn connecting with the solstice and saturn (saturnalia was also celebrated around now-ish) so the symbolism is rather strong with tropical in that sense

however if you wanted to look at the stars to do **** then you'll want to know sidereal though every single constellation isn't equal in size virgo is the second largest in the sky and aries is very small, but if you learn fixed stars and the lunar mansions then you can keep track of where things fall based on nakshatra which gets around that issue

you should try reading charts with each of them to get a feel and just go with what you find theceasiest to intuit information from but every system you can learn is worth learning

posted December 23, 2020 07:44 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda_S:
Lol! I yell-cry, but I dunno if it's necessarily when I'm stressed.

When I'm stressed or faced with a situation that I'm supposed to be emotional about (like an actual example that I caused by mistake which almost caused someone to get killed lol, when I nearly caused an accident on the road and if the car would've gone a bit faster he would've not been able to slow down, ending up killing a guy because of me)

In the situation above, instead of feeling emotional or terribly sorry, that guilt turned into extreme coldness. I wasn't emotional at all. I remember the rest of the day everything that happened I was just extremely oblivious to and didn't feel a thing.

Or perhaps does that mean that my inferior function is in fact Fe?

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i dont think i was clear with what kind of stress i meant. i may have been coming from a more subjective place. i have been through a lot of abuse with my family (psychological, emotional and physical) and the one that really made me cry was the psychological stuff. the other abuse hurt more in a psychological way too when i tried to process the situations. the above scenario wouldnt make me feel anything either because why should it? mistakes were made but nothing really happened. i would just think to be more careful. i dont know if thats an inferior Fe or just a strong Ti?

when i was younger/less seasoned as a human being, my inferior Fe stood out more when someone was upset and being emotional (for any reason). it stressed me out because i didnt know how to deal and didnt understand why my words werent calming or why my words were upsetting. im better at it now but it takes a lot of energy out of me. i would also not cater to my own feelings and be embarrassed if my feelings did show, most likely in an explosive way. i understand/acknowledge my feelings more now which helps me understand others more. i also dont explode anymore.

posted December 25, 2020 03:28 AM            

i think one of the biggest tells for INTJ vs. INTP is how sure of yourself you are. INTPs second guess themselves, even in the moment, are very meta, are constantly collecting new data and because of this openness, typically dont see a lot of ideas come into fruition.

I remember back in the day... Maybe one of the reasons I really related to the INTJ personality (by pure observation, I felt similar to them) is cuz of how sure I can 'come across'. My speech can come off as overly confident sometimes. Even when I don't know whether or not what I'm saying is correct, I don't necessarily have an issue admitting it. Like, I generally verbalize that I may be wrong. But I don't do it in an uncertain manner if you know what I mean? Like I don't waver or stutter, I'll be like 'I'm not sure but I'd guess dot dot dot' kinda thing.

With that being said, I never felt that I'm as structured as the standard INTJ type is. Which is why I figured INTP.

So I took your advice lol went onto some FB group... Anyway I posted my confusion with it... A lot of people agreed with me, however one did mention that I look rather INTJ. And I think I agree with her. But I don't think I come off that way much once you see me in person/my movement. You know what I mean? I for some reason come off way more cool headed and have a rather disconnected look than what I actually am. I mean, I'm more friendly than what I appear to be is what I mean. So do looks matter? Can you look like one type yet be another? Specifically one that looks really disconnected on photos, can they be INFP? Lol it sounds like a weird question 🤣. I guess my question is, if my 'friendliness' is due to my introverted nature yet is actually Ti or is it cuz of my Fi introverted nature... or maybe Ni. Wait are Ni's friendly? 🤣

I definitely feel like a cross between between INTP and INTJ. That for sure. But I dunno if it's just my head playing with me lol.

Also what you mentioned:
and because of this openness, typically dont see a lot of ideas come into fruition.
I literally am this way. But I figured that it's potentially the Ne in me.

female INTPs tend to be a lot less awkward than their male counterparts due to social conditioning.

It's interesting. Yeah especially back in the day I used to feel so awkward around people. I always felt like a sore thumb lol. I think I'm doing way better now. And oddly, now whenever I'm around people, I feel pretty in tune with the emotions of people, which makes me think I do have some F. But the following day I feel differently about it.

have you ever met a group of introverts in real life vs. the internet? its like night and day.

I dunno lol, when I used to be shy(er) I think the awkwardness came through the net. I wasn't sure how to express myself, do I add exclamation points to seem more excited 😆 do I act stuck up because of something they said, do I ignore that person. Lol all of that. I hope I did an ok job at hiding it lol, especially I remember a couple of years ago... Whenever I used to feel insecure, I covered it with a bunch of verbal jargon to come off as way more intelligent that they shouldn't question my actual capabilities or whatever the heck I was trying to cover up lol.

INFPs strongest function is introverted feeling but will normally interact with the world using intuition. their weakest function is actually extraverted thinking so in that sense are not so great at expressing thoughts.

I'm actually curious, this... Do you ever have doubts 'after the fact' that you didn't precisely explain yourself in the way you wanted to? I dunno if it's a weak Te or a strong Ti/Fi. I always realize afterwards that I came off completely unintelligible and no wonder they didn't get me. If I would've just explained myself like this or like that... Whatever lol. You know what I'm saying? Yeah I'm curious if that's a weak Te.

posted December 25, 2020 04:00 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Sauerkraut:
i dont think i was clear with what kind of stress i meant. i may have been coming from a more subjective place. i have been through a lot of abuse with my family (psychological, emotional and physical) and the one that really made me cry was the psychological stuff. the other abuse hurt more in a psychological way too when i tried to process the situations. the above scenario wouldnt make me feel anything either because why should it? mistakes were made but nothing really happened. i would just think to be more careful. i dont know if thats an inferior Fe or just a strong Ti?

when i was younger/less seasoned as a human being, my inferior Fe stood out more when someone was upset and being emotional (for any reason). it stressed me out because i didnt know how to deal and didnt understand why my words werent calming or why my words were upsetting. im better at it now but it takes a lot of energy out of me. i would also not cater to my own feelings and be embarrassed if my feelings did show, most likely in an explosive way. i understand/acknowledge my feelings more now which helps me understand others more. i also dont explode anymore.

hmm the more i write about this mbti stuff the more i feel like i dont know what im going on about. its starting to feel like word vomit to me. i dont know if its pluto transit approaching square my mercury. im probably going to take a break from this analytical cerebral stuff, loosen up my brain a bit and sort of prepare for this transit.

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I think I'd understand how psychological abuse (over physical/emotional) would most strongly affect someone with strong Ti. It's messing with your internal workings. It's like someone hacking the code to your brain that's most private to you. Yeah I totally get it. That sucks BTW (each of them), I'm sorry.

it stressed me out because i didnt know how to deal and didnt understand why my words werent calming or why my words were upsetting.

🤣🤣

It's pretty cute to see someone take responsibility for their lack of ability to calm someone's nerves lol.

Ok so in a case like this makes me think that I must have F. I think I'm pretty good (or I may just be delusional lol) at saying the right things in such scenarios. I don't think it's a female thing honestly, I think generally people feel really comfortable in my presence/telling me things cuz I make them feel ok about it. So I dunno. When someone brings up points like this, I'm like oh yeah I got this downnn. But other observations make me doubt it.

And I don't think it's Fe really, cuz I'm hyper introspective lol. Whatever 😂

Like this:
i would also not cater to my own feelings and be embarrassed if my feelings did show, most likely in an explosive way.
I also hide my feelings and be embarrassed if someone knows what truly goes on in my head. But again, that can totally be Fi.

And I still explode lol. The best way to explain it is my Cancer Venus to Uranus opposition.

hmm the more i write about this mbti stuff the more i feel like i dont know what im going on about. its starting to feel like word vomit to me. i dont know if its pluto transit approaching square my mercury. im probably going to take a break from this analytical cerebral stuff, loosen up my brain a bit and sort of prepare for this transit.

Lol it's actually not word vomit at all I like gaining different perspectives/insights and stuff. Still confuses the hell outta me. But in some way helps me understand things better.

And yeah Pluto square to Mercury forces you to see things in a completely upgraded way.

I did some digging on the actual functions. Although I related to different ones too, I think Fi I feel pretty strongly about. I think lol. Still observing it.

posted December 25, 2020 04:34 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dumuzi:
tropical is still good to know because it never hurts to be able to use another system, but you'll find references to sidereal even in agrippa's work and books like picatrix and the magus

i was actually having this conversation just yesterday with a couple of people, because i was discussing why knowing exactly where things are is useful in occult applications

though tropical was closer to sidereal in the past, it's largely tied to the seasons due to sign representation

aries being spring capricorn connecting with the solstice and saturn (saturnalia was also celebrated around now-ish) so the symbolism is rather strong with tropical in that sense

however if you wanted to look at the stars to do **** then you'll want to know sidereal though every single constellation isn't equal in size virgo is the second largest in the sky and aries is very small, but if you learn fixed stars and the lunar mansions then you can keep track of where things fall based on nakshatra which gets around that issue

you should try reading charts with each of them to get a feel and just go with what you find theceasiest to intuit information from but every system you can learn is worth learning

it's like learning languages

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Yeah thanks a lot. I've been learning more about this the past couple of days.

There's this person explaining it real well which I figured I'd share... You may have already seen it though.

https://youtu.be/ZrXHeOm_QPE

I'm still unsure, is Vedic the same as Sidereal? My Vedic and sidereal chart are completely different. Mostly the houses, with Sun/Moon in the 12th in sidereal (not taking equal or whole house into consideration) and Sun/Moon in the 1st in Vedic. I kinda relate to both based on the way KRS explains it, cuz in Vedic my Mercury is in the 12th. But still, Sun/Moon in the 1st vs 12th is really different.

Also the guy in the above-mentioned video says that the Sun will be in the same house (12 vs 1st) when taking the time of birth into consideration. Before the Sun rises, definitely in the first house. After the Sun rises, definitely in the 12th house. Which is true, but changes when looking at my Vedic chart. In Vedic, Sun being in my first even though the Sun was definitely out then... Just curious why.

Anyway yeah I'm still at the beginning of this. You're right there are reasons why one would learn more than one system for different reasons.

posted December 27, 2020 12:36 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda_S:
Your Sun is in the 12th though, right? Wouldn't that make you introverted and intuitive?

Also your first house Venus maybe a bit compassionate, pointing to F. And is your Moon in the 6th house? I guess the J would make sense then?

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