posted July 05, 2009 03:58 AM         

I was thinking recently about how we can't and don't fathom those around us. We understand people to a degree, and astrology helps us with that, but without actually being the person we can't really fathom them. We can never arrive at a full comprehension of their mindset. Makes sense, right?

I don't know that we generally contemplate the other side of the coin: the fact that we're unfathomable ourselves. When people express their wonder at our ways, if we give it any consideration it's just a quick justification (sometimes multiple justifications).

What I'm starting to wonder is whether or not we find ourselves fathomable. Do we really know ourselves? The general assumption is that we're so intimate with ourselves having spent our whole lives with ourselves that of course we know ourselves. To suggest otherwise seems crazy...and yet the "crazy" people spend hours and hours and hours working with psychiatrists and therapists trying to figure themselves out. Perspective after perspective is introduced until something resonates. Similarly, all of us who are into astrology spend years looking for insight into ourselves. Sun sign astrology started me down this path, and one thing that resonated lead to others, but additionally there were elements that didn't immediately resonate, and in some ways I look for those to define me. Here's the best examples, though. I think the best example of us not knowing ourselves occurs when we discover that something we previously had an aversion to becomes acceptable and even cherished to us, because in these instances we believed we didn't like something only to realize later that, yes, we did in fact like whatever it is.

posted July 05, 2009 04:11 AM         

I also believe that within us we each hold the same qualities, albeit to differing degrees and awareness.

I see myself in most people I meet. I try to reflect that back to people.

My main use of astrology has been to understand myself. I tell myself there's a lot more to me than people can see and then sometimes people surprise me with insights that they reveal.

I usually consider the other side of the coin when it comes to other people. Maybe too much to the point that I don't know when to seperate my self from others. I'm learning to discern that way - what's mine and what I need to let be and belong to someone else.

In the past I have wanted to "fix" everything and make this world perfect for everyone - take away their pain, etc. I'm learning that you have to let people do that for themselves, and that maybe in some way, even if I don't understand it, that things may be perfect as they are right now.

I'm always aware of the uniqueness of each person - but you can't see the world through the eyes of someone else. I think you're meant to accept that others live and experience and perceive and think different but not to live in their shoes, otherwise you wouldn't be you, you would have been born as them. I think compassion is that understanding and acceptance.

EDIT: I think it's very hard to gauge someone from an online format. I mean, speaking for myself, I reveal so little about myself and my thoughts/perceptions here that it would be impossible for anyone to really get me completely. We say a lot, but there's also that we don't say - or can't find a way to say. The silence sometimes speaks louder than the words. I read a lot more posts and have a lot more thoughts and ideas than I contribute.

posted July 05, 2009 06:08 AM         

I think we all change. We are essentially the same person, but we all are molded by our experiences as we learn lessons from them.

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To suggest otherwise seems crazy...and yet the "crazy" people spend hours and hours and hours working with psychiatrists and therapists trying to figure themselves out.

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LOL!!! Maybe they're trying to sort out other people and the issues they've put them through!!

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I think the best example of us not knowing ourselves occurs when we discover that something we previously had an aversion to becomes acceptable and even cherished to us, because in these instances we believed we didn't like something only to realize later that, yes, we did in fact like whatever it is.

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Absolutely true!!! I recently discovered Griffin's Chocolate Macaroons can be more satisfying then Griffin's Gingernuts!!!

posted July 05, 2009 02:54 PM         

There's a limit to self-awareness. We can never be totally objective, nor, I suspect, can we always escape that moment when we say "I don't know what came over me, I don't know why I did that." etc.

Can you ever totally know someone else? Same thing, you can't ever guess 100% what they are going to think, say or do. Or at least, it's the case for anyone of my acquaintance.

posted July 05, 2009 03:21 PM         

I don't think we really change that much over a lifetime.
We may change, that is 'mellow' with age and find things acceptable that once we did not.
Sometimes its as basic as a stubborness thing, where we hold on to certain beliefs that were never REALLY validated in the first place, like, ewww, I hate spinach, and I'm always gonna hate it cause thats what I say, and I believe it, then, as you age, you let some of those things fall away, and discover that they were nothing more than foolish assumptions anyway.

I read somewhere that a persons 'tastes' change every seven years.
Maybe its just that your older every seven years and more open to possibilities.

I also believe you do draw into your life what/people you need to learn from at the time, and they may stick around or not, depending on you.

You'll notice I'm not giving a yes/no anwser, but given that this is a philosophical question, I assume there isn't one.
Exposure to children and old people can make you re-think alot of things.
Also exposure to other cultures and to other classes than your own, help a great deal, IMHO to define your own self.

I asked my Cappy friend the other day this question:

posted July 05, 2009 04:00 PM         

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But, there is such a thing as fathomable enough to get through.

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Certainly. I do think we can understand people to a degree.

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Also, I don't think it is too controversial to suggest that some peole have greater levels of self-awareness than others.

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I think that's true as well.

It's just fascinating for me to think about this box we put ourselves in to. We're encouraged to define it. We're encouraged to believe it to be of a certain finite size. There's a belief that by paring yourself down into specializing in the qualities of this box you are showing integrity.

The most dynamic people, on the other hand, are either derided for being nebulous about their box (lack of character and commitment), or they're the captains of industry always trying to find something new to pull from the box.

I think it's more freeing to latch on to the idea that there is no fixed YOU. That way you can face your fears safe in the knowledge that what you fear now may actually be part of the unlimited box that is YOU.

posted July 05, 2009 04:05 PM         

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You'll notice I'm not giving a yes/no anwser, but given that this is a philosophical question, I assume there isn't one.

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posted July 05, 2009 04:22 PM         

Changing the basic or fixed 'you' ~> anyone who has spent time around brain injured people will know that brain trauma can change the personality.

Emotional trauma can do similar ~> the basic you might get lost for a while and in extreme cases might not ever come back not at all or not entirely.... "he's not the same man he used to be since....." fill in the gap. Well-worn expressions tend to get that way for a reason.

posted July 05, 2009 10:24 PM         

Nevermind. I'm being strange.

posted July 06, 2009 01:24 AM         

I spent my whole life with the idea that I didn't like cherries. Yesterday I bought some cherries- and WOW, how delicious.

How many other wonderful things I am missing in life because of an internalized message that "MK doesn't like that" or "MK doesn't do that?"

How sad.
It's society that pushes us to constantly review our inner selves, to leave no stone unturned, no memory or reaction unexplained.
Why do we do this? Why do we think this is what we "should" be doing?

I would rather flow like water than remain static, like a rock (not the best simile, but work with me.)

I didn't know that Mutable was the most evolved consciousness (or how ever AG put it.) That gives me food for thought.

I rail at myself for NOT putting myself in a box- I am no one's wife, no one's mother, I barely relate to my family. I cannot be labeled, right now.

Society seeks equilibrium, labels, definitions. That's what makes us "society." Too many unknowns cause a breakdown of the system. It makes people uncomfortable.

Storytime:

At one of those endless coffee nights of my youth, where 20 somethings sit around and talk like they know everything a (male) friend of mine was describing a recent conversation with his girl.

She felt like he was distant, that she "didn't understand him," that they weren't intimate enough.
She asked him, "Don't you want to know everything about me? Isn't that what a relationship is?"
His response was, "I seek to know you well enough. To me, that is love. There is still something unfathomable about you, and I love you in spite of that, and because of that."

I thought that was beautiful. I look at all my relationships through that lens, because of that statement.

Anyways, carry on, I babble...

posted July 06, 2009 04:40 PM         

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I didn't know that Mutable was the most evolved consciousness (or how ever AG put it.) That gives me food for thought.

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Well, Pisces is supposed to be the most evolved, and it's Mutable. Also, of the last four astrological signs, two of them are Mutable. It's worth consideration.

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There is still something unfathomable about you, and I love you in spite of that, and because of that."

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posted July 07, 2009 10:37 PM         

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EDIT: I think it's very hard to gauge someone from an online format. I mean, speaking for myself, I reveal so little about myself and my thoughts/perceptions here that it would be impossible for anyone to really get me completely. We say a lot, but there's also that we don't say - or can't find a way to say. The silence sometimes speaks louder than the words. I read a lot more posts and have a lot more thoughts and ideas than I contribute.

And the same could be said for any of us. So you can't make assumptions that you've got that whole picture to make an assessment upon.

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This is the reason behind my hardly ever defending myself, anymore, when it comes to people's assumptions about me. People are going to think whatever they choose to, and my arguing isn't going to change that. With that, I also agree with what Dervish said in Glaucus' thread: http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/000227.html when it comes to judging others.

*edited. Also, Unmoved:

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To the topic at hand... I say, TRUE. I'm too aware of this with me. It's the primary reason why I don't take my negative feelings, toward people and things, too seriously because they always change.

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Me, too.

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Changing the basic or fixed 'you' ~> anyone who has spent time around brain injured people will know that brain trauma can change the personality.

Emotional trauma can do similar ~> the basic you might get lost for a while and in extreme cases might not ever come back not at all or not entirely.... "he's not the same man he used to be since....." fill in the gap. Well-worn expressions tend to get that way for a reason.

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I've been reading about this type of thing, lately.

posted July 07, 2009 11:00 PM         

I've certainly had experiences (with lovers especially) where it's frustrated me that I can't actually get inside of them and take a look around. You share these intense emotional experiences with someone, they tell you about their feelings/beliefs/memories/wounds, you love them, but- you don't know them. How can you? And they don't know you either. You create a unit together from your interaction, but you can't ever fully integrate it with your deeper self.

posted July 08, 2009 01:26 AM         

Shore [the author] demonstrates how rigid thinking can subtly lead us to undermine ourselves.

posted July 08, 2009 03:51 AM         

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Shore [the author] demonstrates how rigid thinking can subtly lead us to undermine ourselves.

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I can kind of see this in a realistic sense. I'm just trying to visualize someone who is rigid and then they corner themselves because they have not been fluid enough to adapt to change. Or something like that anyway.

I've seen 'stubborness' in people and, imo, doesn't really get them anywhere either.

There's so much to learn about people.

I'm still trying to figure out my partner!!!

In fact, I would really like to chat to Lara (if you're there). This is really weird, but today I was thinking that my communication with my partner has the same vibe as I get from you! Although, my partner and you are worlds apart!!! You like to talk about deep spiritual things. My partner likes to talk envelopes and tupperware - LOL!!

But the similar feeling I come away with is that I'm not completely satisfied with what has been said. I'm left hanging with an idea that I have to pick apart and wonder why I'm feeling the way I do, and why am I questioning the why I'm feeling the way I do!

Does that make sense?

posted July 09, 2009 02:35 AM         

Can I just say, before I dive in with my own thoughts..... Great thinking.

Now what got me was this......

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I was thinking recently about how we can't and don't fathom those around us. We understand people to a degree, and astrology helps us with that, but without actually being the person we can't really fathom them. We can never arrive at a full comprehension of their mindset

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My immediate thought was that in a perfect world where all was acceptable we would truly know others because our inner most thoughts and feelings wouldn't be rejected by & large by firstly our family, friends, social peers & society in general.

As it stands, I think that we as individuals hesitate to expose that within ourselves which is considered taboo out of fear of being deemed weird or freak or maverick even & yet I think it is the very thing we desire at heart. To be loved & accepted unconditionally would bring the most intimate knowledge of one another don't you think?

posted July 09, 2009 02:52 AM         

I see that there has been much controversy here of late. I wonder what brought all this on? Ah who am I kidding? I don't wonder at all, it takes up to much RAM & I can't afford to use up the space, lol.

How are things with you? Or is that better discussed privately?

posted July 09, 2009 08:24 AM         

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And isn't the trick to live every moment as if it were simultaneously real and unreal? To embrace the present fully, knowing this will only squeeze the juice -- the life -- out of it faster? To rush down paths with no exits, only to arrive at the entrances of paths with no exits? To make discoveries and not know what it is you have discovered? To formulate theories destined for the scrapheap? To admit the relativity of everything, while holding to your own perspective for dear life? To laugh at the absurdity, cry at the desolation, and wonder at the magnificence of it all? I think so.

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Duh!