posted September 06, 2009 09:45 AM         

I never said you can guage the spirituality of a person by their diet, but I do believe it is one factor. Can you understand that, or do I need to elaborate?

These threads are designed for me to, hopefully, spread wisdom and encourage a more ethical way of life. I have every right in the world to complain when people respond without logic, but with personal insults and insinuations about my motives instead. I'm not physically restricting anyone from eating meat, though I am attempting to influence them through the power of rational argument and evidence. I never agreed with that backwards philosophy so popular today that says we shouldnt try to influence others. I think its apathetic and insincere. I was put on this planet for a reason, and that reason is not supposed to end when I do. If I have not left the world better than I found it, then I have failed. But how am I restricting others? Tell me. I am practically alone here against a host of detractors. I am in the minority with Veganism. How am I restricting others, by arguing for my position, and for the right to do so without personal attacks? How many people here can honestly say they are crusading for something deeply meaningful? Most of them are just repeating the common rubbish, and have never really investigated these matters at all. Why are they so tickled to tear me down for fighting for what I believe in? For fighing for innocent nonhuman animals who are being tortured and killed? Is it so hard to believe that my motives would be primarily noble? Why are they so quick to make accussations and insinuations? To see, or imagine, the worst? Why?

I respect you, yes. But this is a passionate matter. And I hope you respect my passion, and compassion, for this matter. If your friends and family were being detained, tortured, and slaughtered, what would you do? How would you express yoruself? What actions would you take? Try to see it from my point of view. As I see it, the tactics I am using are inicredibly tolerant, considering the crimes being committed.

posted September 06, 2009 03:00 PM         

a) i very much appreciate the fact that you have STOPPED putting down people who post opinions opposed to yours and

b) feel that MOST of the objections are to you expressing your opinion as if you know what is best for everyone, when really your opinion is YOUR opinion.

while most people would probably agree with you that general meat production has a long way to go in terms of honesty or respect for the animals, very few will agree that it is your prerogative to decide what actions THEY should take in response to the situation.

this is why example is a better way of teaching than "precept".

posted September 06, 2009 04:40 PM         

i haven't read all of the responses but something has to be said. spirituality isn't a COMPETITION. isn't 'gauge-able'. this kinda definition is where i feel the essence of true 'spirituality' completely contradicts itself and is why i have a hard time calling myself a 'spiritual' person.

even though he may seem to be contradicting himself via his vehemence and passion, i believe valus is trying to make a point which is essentially 'spiritual': ie, lacking ego and self-service. i do not think he is meaning to come across as judgemental. i think he realizes that the defensiveness inherent to this type of 'debate' is *somewhat* counterproductive to what he is attempting to relay. but at the same time, i truly admire his gusto, because it keeps the conversation going. life is full of paradoxes. he is bringing awareness, but what falls into the scope of awareness is not pretty. not his fault.

i just watched the movie earthlings last night. valus, have you seen it? horrifying. sadder than anything you will ever see. with an excellent narration that overrides the immediate defensiveness we all feel when asked to question our own moral practices and make changes. it is a fact that animals suffer horribly. i am not saying this, nor is valus, i don't think, to make anyone feel badly or less spiritually 'pure' for participating in their suffering (which anyone who consumes meat IS doing). a fact is a fact. whether this impels anyone to question their interaction with the rest of our fellow earthlings or not is an individual choice. but for me, their suffering is the bottom line. period.

f*ck spirituality.

posted September 06, 2009 05:31 PM         

i am not meaning to put anyone on the defensive with this. it is an emotional topic, full of gut-level reactions. it's disturbing. valus and i are both prominantly aquarian with some scorp for added measure. we can't help ourselves from approaching this in a way that will disturb. rethinking requires such approaches. such is life.

posted September 06, 2009 08:12 PM         

there are lot of people in this forum with strong Uranus/Aquarius/11th house, Neptune/Pisces/12th house,Pluto/Scorpio/8th influences. I definitely do.

I wouldn't be surprised if everybody here does. That could be in synchronicity with our being into into Astrology.

Raymond

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

posted September 06, 2009 09:01 PM         

quote:

---

I am criticizing those of us who do have a choice in the matter, and whose poor choices are largely responsible for those people being in poverty to begin with.

---

posted September 06, 2009 10:36 PM         

i promise you if everyone ate as much meat/fish/dairy as i do there would be no need for factory farms. there would be herds of buffalo on the plains - oh sorry, we have buffalo again, bad example. but not really, because humans are also the only species who can look up and say - hey, those guys are suffering because of us, let's protect them and nurture them, and bring species back. that is starting to happen.

shall i now tell the cow that it is unfair for it to flatten the grass and lie on the gopher's home? where do you draw a line?

we live in an ecoSYSTEM which is self-balancing. we GIVE life as well as take it away. true, we humans have gone overboard in our own interest. true, most people eat too much meat and other stuff which shouldn't even be called food! this is something i've been working on for nearly 50 years. i have been a vegetarian, a vegan, a potatoan for chrissake.

slowly, gradually, it comes round. but you can't jump on people and tell them what monsters they are and expect them to go "cool, man, right on!"

truth be told if we weren't so sentimental about HUMAN life, the right of everyone to have children of their own breeding, and as many as they want, but never EVER entertain the thought that some people might be entitled to decide NOT to have a child, not only would there not be so many animals being slaughtered, but there wouldn't be so many animals period.

dogs, cats, cows and other "livestock" proliferate at the expense of other species who have every bit as much right to their habitat as we do, but we have overtaken them. if we didn't raise them, protect them and slaughter them ourselves, many would be fair game for the OTHER predators. who no one blames or calls monsters for eating their food of choice!

and go round and round and round in the circle game...

posted September 06, 2009 11:24 PM         

Who are you?

You just brought this thread to a new level.

If anybody could show me the flaws
in my methods, it would have to be you.

If your good sense and diplomacy
doesn't reach people in ways I haven't
I honestly don't know how to reach them.

These animals DO suffer.
It is a fact and a bottom line.
It is not an opinion.

Let people begin there.
Look there. No, really.
Take a good look.

Then do as you will.

And call it spiritual.

I wish I could be as careful
and as eloquent about this as you,
but I'm still struggling with this,
and my emotions get the better of me.

I'm glad you watched "Earthlings".
I know it wasn't easy to do.

Yeah, I have a Pisces South Node.
I use Whole Sign Houses, which
places the ruler (Neptune) in the 12th,
in dynamic aspect to my Moon.
Mars and Merc are also in the 12th,
and stellium is in the Pisces decan
of Scorpio (Sun/Venus/MC/Uranus).

posted September 07, 2009 02:54 AM         

katatonic, i concur with much of what you said. if conditions weren't what they are, then there would be far less cruelty, via factory farming and the like. i personally feel that no animal should suffer, period. but i also acknowledge this is just my opinion and in (rare) circumstances of consuming meat for survival, would not necessarily disagree with a person choosing to extend their survival by exterminating that of another being's. i really hate coming across as judgemental or condescending or anything like that which is why i typically stay out of these arguments. there is no really delicate way to say 'i don't want animals to suffer!' and not rouse defensiveness. it's impossible really. and even my speaking to this fact makes me sound condescending i'm sure. i think valus and i view animals as we view any other human. i don't think it's maudlin sentimentality or 'disnyfication' to care about another being's right to life and hold that as precious as we'd hold the life of a fellow human. i personally cannot understand a point of view which condones the mistreatment of animals on any level, but that is the chasm in the neverending debate; these distinctly different *points of view*. i agree with valus that it's important, and imperative that animal rights activists speak out. obviously conditions as they are are abhorrent and at the very least DIALOGUE is necessary. this is why i decided to join this thread, instead of opt out as i usually do, knowing the path it would take, of ossifying polarities. far more people consume meat than do not and far more animals suffer than reasonably should (if it can be argued the 'should' at all). i've also always noticed that those who put themselves on the line to promote the rights of animals tend to be expediently categorized into the same basic categories. and so it becomes impossible to engage in a reasonable debate.. as the whole thing becomes personal.

that said i will admit i intentionally ruffled some feathers with my comments on spirituality. as i know valus himself is prone to do. i just realized how awful that comment is in light of the footage i just saw last night. which is my point.

i certainly did not intend any astro snobbery. i find that funny. it's like saying 'i'm a cancer, and i care!' is snobbish. doesn't mean nobody else does, it just means i was explaining perhaps one reason why our approaches to the subject were as they were. unconventional and deeply felt. whenever i read valus' posts i think 'there's that aqua/scorp energy again!'. not that he is the Epitome and Master of such energies, to whom we all must bow. just that is how he comes across to me, and i think both signs are fairly misunderstood, and passionate. and neither are 'pleaser' signs. they fight for what they believe. be they right or wrong.

posted September 07, 2009 03:17 AM         

here are my placements. i have a pretty strong neptune, too, as well as the pisces SN. i think we're only a couple of months apart. i like whole houses too so i'll show you that chart. curious if you see anything that would account for my zealotry

posted September 07, 2009 03:33 AM         

Mars, especially in Aqua,
is likely to be a reformer
and fighter for causes.

Venus in the 1st seeks fair-play,
and values the perspectives of others.

But Neptune in the 12th,
ruling the South Node of the Moon,
has got to be the bleeding stomach.
I mean, the bleeding heart
that you wear on your stomach.
Like a thorn,
or a bullet,
in your side.

posted September 07, 2009 03:33 AM         

~ from:
Nutrition and Stimulants
by Rudolf Steiner

posted September 07, 2009 03:35 AM         

i ETA'ed this but then saw your reply so i'm putting it here for ya, lad..

why i said i have strong scorpio is because my uranus which exactly opposes my moon in scorpio has been yelling at me lately to get more freaking passionate already! i have all those pluto trines and no real outlet for my passions (too darn fixed and settled into my monotomy due to general anxiety). anyway, that uranus of mine is part of my t-square AND the focal point of my boomerang (like a yod with a focus). in placidus i also have saturn and NN in the 8th. so i really feel that scorpio energy is latent in me, yet potent. also pluto's transited back one degree from my venus. oh and my lover is like a quadruple scorpio.. so i'm REALLY feeling it these days. part of why i went all gungho and joined this debate. it's something i am very passionate about. i really think everyone should see that movie. my god.

posted September 07, 2009 03:37 AM         

Feist
"I Feel It All"

I feel it all, I feel it all, I feel it all, I feel it all
The wings are wide, the wings are wide
Wild card inside, wild card inside

Ooh, I'll be the one who'll break my heart
I'll be the one to hold the gun

I know more than I knew before
I know more than I knew before
I didn't rest, I didn't stop
Did we fight or did we talk?

Ooh, I'll be the one who'll break my heart
I'll be the one to hold the gun

I love you more, I love you more
I don't know what I knew before
But now I know I wanna win the war

No one likes to take a test
Sometimes you know more is less
Put your weight against the door
Kick drum on the basement floor

Stranded in the fog of words
Loved him like the winter bird
On my head the water pours
Gulf stream through the open door
Fly away, fly away to what you wanna make

I feel it all, I feel it all, I feel it all, I feel it all
The wings are wide, the wings are wide
Wild card inside, wild card inside

Ooh, I'll be the one to break my heart
I'll be the one who'll break my heart
I'll be the one who'll break my heart
I'll end it, though you started it

The truth lies
The truth lied
No one knows

And lies divide
Lies divide

posted September 07, 2009 03:47 AM         

tinkerbell,

a lot of the Native Americans do that. My best friend,Steve is half Native American shaman, and he told me all about that. He does that too. They are thankful and bless the meat that they eat.

some hunters in some cultures believe in certain contracts that they have with the animals that they hunt.

Raymond

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

“She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else’s is wrong,” Dr. Brown said. “It really is just perfect.”

posted September 07, 2009 03:56 AM         

Earthlings

EARTHLINGS is an award-winning documentary film about the suffering of animals for food, fashion, pets, entertainment and medical research. Considered the most persuasive documentary ever made, EARTHLINGS is nicknamed “the Vegan maker” for its sensitive footage shot at animal shelters, pet stores, puppy mills, factory farms, slaughterhouses, the leather and fur trades, sporting events, circuses and research labs. The film is narrated by Academy Award® nominee Joaquin Phoenix and features music by platinum-selling recording artist Moby. Initially ignored by distributors, today EARTHLINGS is considered the definitive animal rights film by organizations around the world. “Of all the films I have ever made, this is the one that gets people talking the most,” said Phoenix. “For every one person who sees EARTHLINGS, they will tell three.”

In 1999, writer/producer/director Shaun Monson began work on a series of PSAs about spaying and neutering pets. The footage he shot at animal shelters around Los Angeles affected him so profoundly that the project soon evolved into EARTHLINGS. The film would take another six years to complete because of the difficulty in obtaining footage within these profitable industries. Though the film was initially ignored by distributors, who told Monson that the film would “never see the light of day and should be swept under the rug,” today EARTHLINGS is considered the definitive animal rights film by organizations around the world.

"If I could make everybody see a film, I would make them see Earthlings".
~ Peter Singer (author: Animal Liberation)

posted September 07, 2009 04:01 AM         

So, should I counsult you
on this contract I just drew up?

Or just show up, unnanounced,
on your doorstep, with a hatchet,
and a thankful spirit?

People will do all sorts of things
to try to make bad things look good.
Its one of those eternal principles.

But,
though they may be able
to make bad things better,
they can never make them good.

We can live on vegetables.

And heed the higher commandment:

Thou Shalt Not Murder