posted October 08, 2009 03:43 PM         

In the few years prior to the Civil War, churches had actually divided bitterly over this issue (thus were the "Southern Baptists" born, for example), one who saw slavery as an abomination, and the pro-slavers who pointed to the verses condoning slavery (and also said it was the way to civilize certain people, too). And you did not question God.

Politically, slavery was increasingly tied into "state's rights," and like when Sam Houston refused to vote for secession, he faced an armed lynch mob (he instead resigned as governor of Texas, IIRC his political position) and was seen as a traitor though his life was spared. Btw, Sam Houston had also gotten in trouble for foiling the slave trade in both America and Texas (and among the Cherokee) as well as standing up for Native Americans (really funny was when he was sent as an officer to massacre a tribe and he instead accepted a role by the chief of the tribe he was to exterminate, dressing like a Native American, and went to the nation's capital to pass on the grievances on why the tribe was refusing to comply with the US government...he won, and the tribe was spared, though it effectively ended his military career ).

In addition, increasing slave revolts was becoming a major problem. An unanticipated consequence of forbidding slaves to speak their native languages (out of fear that they could plan revolts) is that it eliminated tribal animosity creating a unified black culture who could speak the same language...and there were some pretty bloody revolts, too, and given the slave revolts in other countries (at least one that overthrew the government), it was a major concern in the South.

Short and sweet, if you lived in the South in the few years prior to the Civil War and made a big deal out of slavery then your life was in danger. You had best be armed and own a fast horse, and preferably have one foot in the stirrup before you cast any moral indignation on people who kept slaves, unless you knew your audience was sympathetic (unknown to many, slavery was a divisive issue in both the North AND the South, with pro and anti factions in both--the economy of the south found slavery much more useful than the North, which is why pro-slavery factions were stronger there, especially among the rich, and also why competing economic factors in the north tended to be anti-slavery).

In contrast, being an outspoken vegan today is just likely to get you blacklisted in being invited to anymore dinners & parties. Some families will put up with anything, but I'd think even many of them wouldn't tolerate it long.

But your chances of getting killed over it strike me as the same as getting killed in an argument on how to load the dishwasher (granted, that has happened...) Economic forces (those who run them anyway) are pretty much in agreement with current dietary standards, and the governments follow along with their special interests. There are no major religious schisms over it. And whereas someone anti-slavery in the South just before the Civil War would be seen as a traitor to God and Nation who are likely a member of dangerous political factions that could potentially destroy them or inspire slaves to forget their place and rise up in revolt, a vegan today is likely to be just seen as foolish sentimentalists and treated either with petty annoyance or at least with gentle condescension (as one would a mentally disabled person). Furthermore, no one imagines that cows would listen to them and start stockpiling weapons.

I think a more likely parallel is what would you do if you joined a cult that demanded all women cover their heads and you insisted wherever you go women cover their heads. The more aggressive and proselytizing vegans would have far more in common with them, socially speaking, than with people who spoke out against slavery in the South just prior to the Civil War (or against the Nazis, etc).

posted October 08, 2009 04:28 PM         

awesome post

I saw this thread,and I knew it was one of those eating animals is like condoning Black slavery type of threads.

Therefore, I wouldn't dare touch it.

I only responded because you did,and that's to respect your insights

being part African American, I wouldn't have no say-so in those days. My butt would be whipped for being uppity. If I led a slave revolt, I'd be whipped and hanged. I would have hated slavery,and so I would have tried to run away if I could. I wouldn't be the type to take orders. I'd be one of the bad n-ggers,and get whipped a lot. Having such a temper,I'd probably beat the crap out of the overseer which lead me to a severe whipping. After getting so many whippings, I will probably give up, being human like Kunta Kinte accepted his slave name,Tobey. Maybe, I will say that I had it and will strike against my overseer. Abolutionist, Frederick Douglas, an ex-slave fought back against his overseer after he was brutally whipping him.
I'd rather die than be a slave though. I can't even imagine what my black ancestors went through. I am so damned lucky that I was born in 1970's. I feel that people of African descent born in the 1980's,1990's,2000's are even luckier.

Nat Turner was a former slave that led a slave revolt. he ended up getting hanged

a slave revolt in Haiti led to blacks independence. Toissaint L'oveurtue was the leader

Raymond

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"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted October 08, 2009 09:29 PM         

even jefferson, who had SOME clue, kept his slaves, and there were MANY slaveowners who saw their darkies as part of the extended "family" (or sometimes like we see pets) and took very good care of them. this was not just to protect their investment but because they cared for their wellbeing, but the bottom line was healthy happy slaves made better workers. but just as you wouldn't want your dog relieving himself on the carpet, there were "limits"...a term used often today when speaking of adolescents and other children!

but the mindset in which you live can be hard to see around, it colours everything you see! which is why trying to force people into complete change rarely works.

posted October 08, 2009 11:44 PM         

a matter of fact, I was watching something about Michelle Obama's slave roots. Her great great great grandfather was white.

man..I wish that I could explore my own black African American roots,but I don't know any relatives on my father's side.

I read about Harriet Tubman. She was a major conductor of the Underground Railroad. She used to be a slave.

Raymond

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"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted October 09, 2009 01:44 PM         

i'm a rebel so i would done something but would it have led to my aim or would i have just not changed anything for my friends?

and what would have been the reasons for my actions? to feel powerful and/or righteous or to lead by example with compassion?

and what if i wasn't born a few years before the civil war but one or two hundreds years before? would have i changed history?

posted October 09, 2009 02:43 PM         

I'm all about changing minds - it's a dirty job, really. It is quite laborious, it takes a lot of determination, strength, idealism, compassion... How one goes about it is a matter of style.

My way is not Valus' way is not pire's way etc. etc.

I can see and appreciate the value in each style. They are all equally important and can, no, must coexist.

Some people will speak up and get ostracized for it. Some will quietly go against the grain.

Some would cower and say/ do nothing.

quote:

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i wonder if we can change history...

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posted October 09, 2009 03:14 PM         

by leading by example, i don't mean shut up, i mean be compassionate towards the victims/slaves and be compassionate towards the oppressors.

i dont know why u go on about the victim thing. like i was misunderstanding or judging u. i see through u more than u think, and i see much good, but are u insecure that u need me saying it?

reread my first post without the victim mentality, think about it, i have pondered my sentences, they are not argumentative at all, i would not argue with u ever, i'm too coward, those were just reflections in the least aggressive manner, i know, i've got a long way

ps: i come across as argumentative but i don't fake hearts

posted October 09, 2009 03:35 PM         

traditional societies have been eating meat, but i personnally don't find them less spiritual than any great western or eastern thinker. i don't imply eating meat is spiritual either.

posted October 09, 2009 04:45 PM         

quote:

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traditional societies have been eating meat, but i personnally don't find them less spiritual than any great western or eastern thinker. i don't imply eating meat is spiritual

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I agree. No single behavior makes one more or less spiritual. The behavior itself may be more or less spiritual, but it is only one aspect of a person's, or a society's, spirituality. I believe that eating meat is less spiritual than not eating meat, but this does not mean that a person who eats meat is necessarily less spiritual than one who does not. If the two people are identical in every other respect, then the meat-eater would be less spiritual, but this is only a hypothetical; in reality, no two people are identical, or even close to identical. There is a lot to consider, and this is only one factor. People, and societies, do not advance all at once... they evolve some part of themselves and then they evolve another part. While veganism may be more evolved than meat-eating, it does not follow that a vegan is more evolved than a meat-eater, since this is only one aspect of evolution.

quote:

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im trying to say is be gentle with meat eaters, don't be fanatic like missonaries whose objective was to convert

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I hear you. But I believe my methods are not overly agressive. On the contrary, it's the meat-eater who needs to be encouraged to be more gentle. I may speak uncomfortable truths, but I'm not separating anyone from their family, or imprisoning anyone in a tiny cage, in which they can't even turn around. Nor am I slitting anybody's throats and devouring their flesh here. But this is precisely what people are doing when they contribute to the meat industry. Think about it. Think with your heart.

quote:

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paradoxes are the key

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posted October 09, 2009 08:03 PM         

I don't know much about American history, but it's easy to see how huge the breach in human trust went in those days. It's raping and pillaging on a grand scale.

I respect the dignity of the African Americans in their growth from those nasty days. I understand that social barriers and equality issues still underline parts of American cultures.

I also love the fact that people of all skin tones can interact with each other with no discriminatory thoughts, and it can be seen in inter-racial marriages, occupations, friendship groups, roles on tv shows.

I can't really comment on this thread's purpose to see 'what I would do' with knowing the stresses and boundaries that individuals are placed under in society. It's hard to be a black sheep without being slaughtered. I guess I would have to follow some basic wisdom....

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents and harmless as doves"

Or,

"Slowly, slowly catch the monkey"

....in regard to seeking national change at an individual level.

I confess I have an issue with the invasion aspect of our human history. I admit that it does include some bias against 'white skin' history, and the destruction of a wealth of ancient cultures.

I also admit that I did not agree with the skit that appeared on an Austrlain show this week:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMAyGewq37w

However, I also accept that most Australians do not understand the depth of pain, despair and hardship that African Americans have experienced in American history.

posted October 09, 2009 09:24 PM         

One thing I have found with non-native speakers of English is that they convey ideas in original ways. It makes listening to explanations very interesting.

I think native speakers of English use so many colloquilisms and common phrases that it becomes an almost predictable script.

I only speak English and struggle to find interesting ways to describe situations. So more credit to you!!!!