posted December 15, 2009 05:30 PM         

quote:

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but is that your aim?

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I don't think so. My conscious aim...well, when we first started talking in this thread, I commented about the contents of the first post. My aim then was to make you aware of my perspective, which is that people do indeed engage in conversation about virtue all the time.

Now it would appear that I have the opportunity to direct your next thought process, and I don't know if I'll do a good job of it. I would love for you to open up your already considerable imagination to the possibility of things you currently shut the door on. Are you aware of how often you justify not changing? It's rather stark contrast to how much you advocate that others change. Others shouldn't eat animals or make frivolous threads, but if someone suggests you do something as minor as changing your approach...if they do it in private you give the impression of accepting it; if they do it in public then it's this tremendous terrible thing. It's not. And not only is not a big deal, but you're going to come to the same conclusion on your own eventually. Some transit will hit, and you'll suddenly see things in a new light. A possibility that's always been there, that you've always ignored, will suddenly seem less threatening and daunting. It'll be like a new lease on life. Suddenly you'll be able to conceive that you do indeed possess the resources to pursue things in a way you hadn't previously thought possible. Hastening that (if it can be hastened) would be a admirable aim I think.

posted December 15, 2009 07:00 PM         

I hear you, and it all makes perfect sense, -- but not for me, or for most people with both their Sun and Moon in fixed signs. First of all, I've changed plenty of things, and I gave you one very big example when I mentioned veganism. Second, if something is working, dont change it. Even if other's cannot see the good you are doing, keep doing it. Uranians are supposed to be extreme and unyeilding. They take uncompromising positions that need to be taken, and which other people are far too "practical" to take. Thirdly, I am sure that some transit will send me in an entirely different direction, and it will be very much as you have described. But it will come when the time is right, and when I am ready for it. What is it to you, anyway? Why can't you just appreciate or not appreciate what I contribute, without having to make some case of your own? Do you have anything of your own to say? Or do you just read other people's threads and find stuff to say about them? What would you think of me, if I went on the Godzala threads right now and started telling PA how she needs to change her style to reach people, if she wants them to understand Godzala? Sure, she wants them to understand, but is she going to change her style just for them? No. The style is organically linked to the spirit of what she does. Its the same with what I do. And it may change, and become more universal, and it may not. It may never -- I may never -- be mainstream; or "practical". And that's okay. Maybe, just maybe, that is not the most important thing. As it is, I get by. I'm free to say what I want, the way I want, when I want. I couldnt really ask for anything more. The rest is gravy. If I have any complaints, they are for the sake of others. I'd be happier if more people understood me, but I'm not losing sleep. I'd rather be misunderstood than compromise my principles.

koi,

My Chart Ruler is in Virgo.

Saturn, Sextile my Sun,
in the house of the higher mind.

I also have Mercury on a Critical Degree.

"These are considered sensitive, and sometimes strengthening, points. If a natal planet is found in a critical degree, that planet is emphasized and assumes more power in the life of the native due to its placement."

It's in the twelfth house,
where insights into life are often
far too deep to be practical --
at least, not in the sense in
which you were using the word.

posted December 15, 2009 07:09 PM         

------------------
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted December 15, 2009 07:21 PM         

It's not about what should be "versus" what is.
It's trying to see both of these things clearly,
and to bring them into accord with each other.
You cannot do this by opposing them.

juni,

Well said. Divine Union is unthinkable before we have developed the lower virtues. If a man is in a position to dispense the highest wisdom, to identify with people from every walk of life, and to see into the most subtle moral and ethical questions of his, or any, time, without first having developed in the lower virtues, we can only marvel at, and attempt to approximate, the profound amount work which must have been accomplished by such a man in his previous incarnations.

posted December 15, 2009 07:34 PM         

quote:

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where insights into life are often
far too deep to be practical

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An insight isn't really deep if it isn't practical. What good is a thought without a use?

quote:

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Second, if something is working, dont change it.

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Who's the judge of what's working? Not usually the one doing the work. Most of the setbacks initiators encounter are from consumers dissatisfied with the product. That's true across a broad spectrum of endeavor.

There's a famous quote:
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results.

We can't live of lives by quotes and catch phrases, can we? How many times have we all heard, "If it's not broke, don't fix it?," or alternately the quote I posted? There's a go-to quote for just about anything. It doesn't change reality.

quote:

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Even if other's cannot see the good you are doing, keep doing it.

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Indeed. When you wondered earlier today at what I do to show compassion, it's very often nothing. I give people the gift of freedom. Freedom from my meddling. Freedom from my commentary.

quote:

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Why can't you just appreciate or not appreciate what I contribute, without having to make some case of your own?

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I didn't start this by making a case. I started this thread with a rather simple disagreement with what you'd said. I don't think I'm the one that escalated it into something bigger.

I do appreciate it when you participate in good dialogues, and I think you have a good mind. I have long considered you to be the closest thing to me at this forum even if we seem quite different.

quote:

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Do you have anything of your own to say? Or do you just read other people's threads and find stuff to say about them?

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I think you know the answer to that.

posted December 15, 2009 08:01 PM         

quote:

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I've gotta go. Time to clock out.

---

posted December 15, 2009 08:14 PM         

quote:

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As a Godzalan do you ever find yourself talking about virtue? Right and wrong? "What should be" versus "what is"?

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Great point - What should be V. what is.

Virtue is on a spectrum line, I guess, from taking a bullet to save a life to rescuing an ant from being stepped on.

Virtuosity is an inner quality, where heart and mind met to guide oneself, and perhaps, to guide others through the current culture's mission statement.

Virtuosity is intuitive.

I don't know if I talk directly of virtues on LL, but I use my intuition as to what may by appropriate.

Some Knowflakes remain well within the boundaries of virtuosity, while others stretch those boundaries.

posted December 15, 2009 08:24 PM         

quote:

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Uranians are part ruled [co-ruled] by Capricorn.

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You don't know what you're talking about.
Aquarians are co-ruled by Saturn.
Uranians are just Uranians.
And Uranus is exalted in Scorpio
(the sign of extremes),
not Capricorn.

quote:

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An insight isn't really deep if it isn't practical. What good is a thought without a use?

---

This is the trouble with an overly earthy
definition of practicality.
You need to appreciate subtlety
and action at a distance.
Some things are indirectly active.
I've tried to make this clear to you.
Some people are catalysts.
They have a thousand original ideas,
and a thousand people pick up those ideas
and put them into action,
in a thousand different ways.
They say visionary things without even
noticing the things they are saying.
But those casual remarks become the
centerpieces of other men's philosophies,
motivating their love-affairs with life.
They transmit ideas that have profound and
far-reaching effects in the lives around them.
If they never publish a book, somebody writes
one about them, recording their sayings.
There are many examples of men like this.
And how many more, that we never hear of?
Who are just picking up and putting out
the most revolutionary energies to whoever
they may find themselves in conversation with.
Who knows where their thoughts end up.

I found one of my quotes
on some girl's profile on myspace,
without my name underneath it.
Who knows what that idea meant to her,
or what it does in a person's mind when
you trigger in them a new way of seeing.
Who can see into the far-reaching and
subtle psychological ramifications of
an ingeniuously crafted thought?
Sometimes I think I can.
Sometimes I think it's Mercury in my 12th.

quote:

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Who's the judge of what's working?

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I am, AG.
That's the beauty of it.
I'm the master of my ship.

quote:

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Not usually the one doing the work.

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No, not usually.
But my case in unusual.

quote:

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Most of the setbacks initiators encounter are from consumers dissatisfied with the product. That's true across a broad spectrum of endeavor.

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Yup.
Just ask the Crucified One.

quote:

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There's a famous quote:
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results.

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Who expects a different result?
I have faith in what I'm doing.
You water a plant every day, AG.
Just because you dont see the fruit
right away, doesnt mean you give up.

quote:

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We can't live our lives by quotes and catch phrases, can we? How many times have we all heard, "If it's not broke, don't fix it?," or alternately the quote I posted? There's a go-to quote for just about anything. It doesn't change reality.

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My sentiments exactly.
You should read my book.
We can only follow our hearts
and use the quotes that suit
our higher purposes.
It's intuitive.

quote:

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When you wondered earlier today at what I do to show compassion, it's very often nothing. I give people the gift of freedom. Freedom from my meddling. Freedom from my commentary.

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A very good point, AG.
Sometimes action involves nonaction,
and sometimes compassion means
admitting we don't have the answers
and are not in a position to judge.

quote:

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I didn't start this by making a case. I started this thread with a rather simple disagreement with what you'd said. I don't think I'm the one that escalated it into something bigger.

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It's precisely the casual and off-handed
nature of your criticisms that upsets me.

quote:

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I do appreciate it when you participate in good dialogues, and I think you have a good mind. I have long considered you to be the closest thing to me at this forum even if we seem quite different.

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Thanks.

posted December 16, 2009 05:14 AM         

quote:

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It's precisely the casual and off-handed
nature of your criticisms that upsets me.

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Valus, what's casual and off-hand about AG responding in great detail, point-by-point to your comments, with, what is apparent to me at any rate, a great deal of thought? I think you're being unfair. Whatever he does it seems it's not good enough. Right from the outset (your second post in response to Shura) you get the hump and assume people are going to let you down with their responses, that they are not going to understand.

Why do you assume this? It really gets my back up and it turns me off from wanting understand someone with such an attitude. Which is a shame because you have good points. It puts people off wanting to respond and have an adult dialogue with you.

From one Sun-conjunct-Uranus to another, chill eh?

posted December 16, 2009 07:00 AM         

quote:

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And would you say that you ever have conversations in your regular life about virtue? Does it ever hit you that certain people aren't acting in accordance with your values/virtues? Does it ever anger you when people are stupid, or break the law, or disregard some social contract?

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I think my year has been full of dealing with what is virtuous and what is not! Yes, it does hit me when people are not acting in what I perceive as virtuous. Yes, it does anger me when people do stupid things and disregard a social contract.

This is my brief story about this year......

This year, a work colleague who gets grumpy and has a very negative view on life, snatched a child from my arms during a toileting session.

Why did she do this? Because out of stupid pride and negativity, she didn't like to be told that this child needed to be lifted by two people. She decided that only one person could lift him, and she proved her point by snatching him while I helped her lift him.

I was the boy's case manager and I was under a physiotherapist directive to move him in a special way, and I relayed this to the staff member - who incidentally has been recorded in the past for bullying issues.

What was completely stupid about this? The boy had recently had major surgery on both his hips. He was in pain. He moaned in pain as he was swept from our safe lift into her selfish possession where she dumped him in his wheelchair.

What even more stupid? After formally complaining and writing letters of complaint to various 'superiors', I was ignored, screamed at by her crony friend and further ignored by my superiors.

What does an establishment do to the person trying to protect children from bi-polar staff that make stupid decisions with vulnerable children? They transfer them!!! I have been transferred to another school!!!

What makes stupid look stupider? Most staff are aghast at what I've been put through trying to advocate for a child with a disability. They are disgusted with the stupid attitude of people who are meant to make good decisions based on the Values poster that hangs in the reception area!!!

posted December 16, 2009 07:12 AM         

My next workplace can only be better!!! I've already met them and I get a good vibe. But where should I keep my virtues? What do I do if someone abuses a child again? Cry out? Hide away?

posted December 16, 2009 10:59 AM         

i mean he's just human, with flaws, and love is not calling someone's sh!t something precious, sh!t is sh!t

now before anyone gets offended, I should precise that I don't imply valus is anything like SH!t, au contraire. but to be fair to him, I think he should know that his reasoning can be flawed sometimes, or let me know if when he farts it only smell roses.

and in the same logic, I believe that you are worth more than being the shadow of a thinker, however great he is.

posted December 16, 2009 11:14 AM         

I think valus has some profound insight to share but his way to share it is NOT something which i appreciate. if I was clever and confortable like him in my life, then I would like to share it with others. there is no point being clever and "rich" (in the sense of insight and wisdom) and keep it to share it only with those who appreciate it or who show devotion. I find it useless, and shameful. talking about virtues!

to valus, I sincerely hope you would accept people lack of appreciation for your values and keep sharing regardless. but by sharing, I mean, why not get highly involved in politics, syndicalism, using your enegry to change the lives of millions. tyhat would be so great. I swear if I was powerful, that is men like you that I would like to take the control of society. men with values and are not scared of it.

homeless, come on, people are living in the streets RIGHT NOW! winter is coming and it's below zero here.

personally, i'm struggling right now, not just financially but I won't go over it here. but if I manage to get through it, valus, you have my word that I will do my share and a little more to get this sort of things sorted.

not because homeless people that I would help would look up to me, I can't care less about it. they can hate me and think i'm stupid and a tool, but because I would have provided the minimum to other human being, that is food, shelter and clothing. I trust them to find love and wisdom by themselves.

& brothers

posted December 16, 2009 11:22 AM         

i would love to quote one great thinker, namely, pitbull. in one of his song he says: