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Author
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Topic: To Be Governed
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Valus
Knowflake Posts: 1950
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted January 06, 2010 07:07 PM
 
To be governed is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be governed is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be placed under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonoured. That is government; that is it's justice; that is it's morality.
~ Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
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Valus
Knowflake Posts: 1950
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted January 06, 2010 07:08 PM
All parties,
without exception,
when they seek for power,
are varieties of absolutism.
~ Proudhon
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Valus
Knowflake Posts: 1950
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted January 06, 2010 07:09 PM
My conscience is mine, my justice is mine,
and my freedom is a sovereign freedom... Whoever puts his hand on me to govern me
is a usurper and a tyrant. I declare him my enemy.
~ Proudhon
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Valus
Knowflake Posts: 1950
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted January 06, 2010 07:16 PM
Just as man seeks justice in equality,
society seeks order in anarchy.
~ Proudhon
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Valus
Knowflake Posts: 1950
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted January 06, 2010 07:17 PM
"Property is theft.""Slavery is death." "Anarchy is order." "God is Evil."
~ Proudhon
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Dervish
Knowflake Posts: 407
From:
Registered: May 2009
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posted January 06, 2010 07:29 PM
What made me laugh is that the first Proudhon quote can be found on shirts.  Btw, I knew a guy who was a nihilist who thought anarchists didn't go far enough & that the very system of morality itself must be overthrown, or anarchy (*) would be as tyrannical as the hierarchical modes of governing. (*I'm speaking in the ideological sense which are communities governed where all are truly equal, and typically--though not always--work in a democratic fashion with "town hall meetings" common--it's more accurate to say "everyone is a cop" rather than "no one is a cop." As opposed to "break down in social order" which leads to chaos.) What I found ironic is that he was one of the nicest guys I knew. Especially ironic in how many vile jerks out there preach morality. But his view is that most wars, inquisitions, oppressive laws and social exploitation were all grounded in ideas of morality. Throw morality out the door and you get rid of so much evil that it causes, too. Though we did have some interesting talks over the Russian nihilists who were pretty much the ones to form the image of the "bomb throwing anarchist" (in Russia, nihilists & anarchists were often allies) into the minds of the public, and assassinated various members of Russia's governing & royal body. But he personally preferred to inspire people through his art, to "become lucid," rather than using "the methods of the state against the state" as the Russian nihilists did. IP: Logged |
katatonic
Knowflake Posts: 2776
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted January 06, 2010 07:35 PM
proudhon changed his mind somewhat as he got older (though he never got very old!) and apparently he believed in slavery despite his "property is theft" sloganeering. he considered blacks inferior, and jews dangerous. wonderful guy. really free.personally i think if government is voted in and upon, the "right" has been given by the people...whether that is a natural right is definitely open to question but the fact is most people don't have time to take care of everything themselves so they make some rules...the first step to government...and appoint some people to uphold those rules. does that make the appointees thieves and despots? IP: Logged |
Valus
Knowflake Posts: 1950
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted January 06, 2010 07:48 PM
Hi Dervish,"Anti-morality" is it's own morality. Every value system exludes all other value systems. "Anti-morality" proposes the exclusion of all value systems, but, without substituting one of its own, it thereby substitutes the principle of exclusion itself. Value is placed on not placing value. The injunction is to make no injunctions. But this is perhaps the most tyrannical of injunctions. You can tell that to your "nihilist". There are certain ideas that are meant to liberate us, but, if carried too far, they negate themselves. Provided we are aware of these contradictions or paradoxes, we may hold a philosophy tentatively -- loosely, but without letting go. Maybe I only see it this way because of my mutable Mercury in a mutable house? IP: Logged |
Valus
Knowflake Posts: 1950
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted January 06, 2010 07:56 PM
hi kat,Oh, I hope that's not true,
about the slavery and racism.
I was just starting to like this guy. I'm not sure what my own theories are
regarding capital and government, but
I'm exploring different perspectives. I think the media plays a role now
that it didn't play in Proudhon's time,
and that is something to consider. Manufacturing Consent IP: Logged |
katatonic
Knowflake Posts: 2776
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted January 06, 2010 08:38 PM
well i'm not quite old enough to remember but in those days the media was the printing press, travelling players and theatre, and - the rumour mill. the technology has changed but there were snake oil salesmen then as now...and shysters and propagandists...i got that info from wikipedia which is known for its variable authenticity but sources were given. the trouble with philosophy is the philosophers are often speaking from lack of experience, and change their minds as they go along...just like all the self-help writers now, many of whom are spouting what they believe as if it were tried and true, but they cannot practice what they preach - yet, anyway...still thinking and discussing is fun if nothing else... IP: Logged |
Dervish
Knowflake Posts: 407
From:
Registered: May 2009
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posted January 06, 2010 10:55 PM
quote:
"Anti-morality" is it's own morality
I already brought that up with him.  Let's see...to sum up his view all short & sweet, his response was that it wasn't so much about an utter rejection of all morality for all time, but rather to become aware of how much morality is subjective and yet treated as objective, which in turns dehumanizes others who don't agree with or live according to our own subjective ideals. (Also, these subjective ideals are also used to manipulate us.) An important part is that there's a difference between the laws of physics and the laws of humanity. One is based on reality. The other is imposed artificially and then mistaken for reality. It's that artificiality he was against. However, he didn't deny objective reality. And he also rationalized his decent behavior and general lack of hedonism because it got him what he wanted, including self-awareness, but not because "it's a sin." That is, it was all about logic rather than feelings. What he'd love for the world to see is how artificial most ideas that we take for granted are and then start basing what we do more on logic & reason than such things as sentimentality and other ways that we are controlled & manipulated. Without this lucidity, though, our species is gripped in a vicious cycle of history that can't be broken. Or put simply, "A wound won't heal until you burn away the infection." Different people & regions would have different conditions and so would adopt--for a time--ideals that would suit them based on logic, and be willing to change those views reasonably rather than coming to turn them into something permanent that simply has to be maintained "because it just is." I don't think I'm explaining his position very well, so I'll just stop there as I'd probably only muddy it further if I try to get anymore specific. IP: Logged | |
Lindaland
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