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Author
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Topic: The Mote In The Eye Of The Beholder
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Valus
Knowflake Posts: 3318
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 16, 2010 03:41 AM
 
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Dervish
Knowflake Posts: 625
From:
Registered: May 2009
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posted February 16, 2010 04:53 AM
I instinctively revolt at putting Britney at the same level as Beethoven, too, but at the same time I realize that Britney vids on YT will get many, many times more hits than anything by Beethoven.  Though actually, I think one could make some arguments that Britney has her own strengths Beethoven didn't, such as her choreographies, or at least ability to pull them off so well. Though to me personally, it also feels wrong to compare the 2 the same way it is to try and compare a professional marching band to a rock concert, it's apples & oranges.And I think it's worth keeping in mind that such great classical composers were hardly as dignified as we imagine them today. As just one example, one of my favorites, Liszt, despite his wife always writing him letters to tell him not to be such an ass, would strut around all dandified, telling the "Iron Tsar" to shut up while he was playing (which he did), and got into fights with another favorite of mine, Chopin, over using his room to bang his groupies. Ladies would fight over their garments they'd throw them.  Btw, you might be interested to know that the original Sherlock Holmes was a druggie. One novel (I think the Hound of Baskervilles) ended with him telling Watson to fetch his pipe (for either cocaine or heroin). 'Course that stuff was still legal then, and even Coca Cola had cocaine in it. Though the author himself hated Holmes, seeing him as an arrogant know it all and couldn't stand the character, but public demand for the dope using detective kept him alive, as the author had bills to pay and that was his meal ticket. IP: Logged |
Valus
Knowflake Posts: 3318
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 16, 2010 01:40 PM
I hear you, Dervish. It's unfortunate that Britney and Beethoven, like apples and oranges, beg comparison. And, yes, most people don't realize how eccentric or radical so many of the great artists and works of art were in their day. The same crowd that praises them reverentially now, probably would have been shocked and upset by them at the time. I don't see how Sherlock Holmes has anything to do with it, but it's a fine example of why economic concerns shouldn't be allowed to dominate the motivations of art.
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AcousticGod
Knowflake Posts: 3557
From: acousticgod@sbcglobal.net
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 16, 2010 02:01 PM
I thought her post was quite tangential considering the actual point of the post.I think you may be right to a degree. People do perceive things differently. There are instances where one way is more realistic, though. Here's an example from this morning: I was cooking eggs, and I grabbed the cooking spray to spray the pan. My roommate tells me I don't need it; the pan's non-stick (these are new pans she got at Christmas). I inform her it's not going to hurt. She says she'll look it up (as if it might hurt the pan). To me, common sense dictates that a frying pan manufacturer isn't going to produce a pan that will deteriorate or otherwise be affected by a saute-ing agent. It's her perspective versus mine, but mine's right. On the other hand, perhaps she's right about the spray not being necessary in this instance. I don't know if my egg would've stuck or not. I may have been inefficient, but it has no effect on anyone. (Typical Cardinal Sun type argument by the way.) I was kind of thinking about this issue earlier myself. I was thinking about my color blindness. My particular color blindness doesn't prevent me from being able to identify colors, so I do see them. I just don't always see them right. This idea of how we see colors could be a metaphor for the different ways people see things. One might see things as cold and hard, while another see things as vibrant and colorful, and I'm sure there would be a million types in between. Still, there is data that doesn't change based on perspective. It is exactly what it is regardless of whether it's misconstrued as something else. IP: Logged |
katatonic
Knowflake Posts: 4829
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 16, 2010 02:33 PM
yes genius is often misunderstood, and also unrecognized at the time.but who compares britney with beethoven? do people who rate britney even know who beethoven was? but i would disagree that britney "gets more hits" anywhere but on youtube...beethoven is far more accepted as a genius and has stood the test of time...and been listened to by MANY more people over the years. PLUS beethoven wrote it down so the rest of us peasants could reproduce, after our own fashion, what he dreamed... i for one am not so sure that beethoven would not have seen britney as a genius...tho about as different from him as could be! and of course it's all relative. even within one person's opinion it is relative. in the old days keith richards used to BOAST that "this is not mozart" but about SPONTANEITY in communication...NOW he admits to GETTING what mozart was doing and appreciating the genius therein...just an example! IP: Logged |
Valus
Knowflake Posts: 3318
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 16, 2010 03:45 PM
AG,I don't mind tangential, provided digressions arise spontaneously from reflection on the original topic. What seems out of place to me are points which are raised for spurious, and presumably personal reasons. I think you got my argument. Both objective and subjective considerations come into play. As I see it, objective and subjective elements are equally present, but we emphasize one over another depending on the purpose under consideration. With art, the purpose of which is to accord primarily, not with factual data, but, with higher human sympathies, the matter would have to involve a great deal of subjectivity.
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AcousticGod
Knowflake Posts: 3557
From: acousticgod@sbcglobal.net
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 16, 2010 04:24 PM
quote:
Both objective and subjective considerations come into play. As I see it, objective and subjective elements are equally present, but we emphasize one over another depending on the purpose under consideration.
I agree, though maybe not always equally present (I mean if we're talking about an individual's view it's probably going to tend one way or the other). IP: Logged |
Valus
Knowflake Posts: 3318
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted February 16, 2010 04:25 PM
quote:
but who compares britney with beethoven?
Everyone. You, for instance, just compared/contrasted them fairly wisely in about a dozen ways. I think we naturally compare high art and pop art, constantly. The modern is always trying to come to terms with the classical, and we are often blind to what, in our own age, is destined for greatness. While most people are blind to genius, it would seem that the hindsight of history is 20/20. Tori Amos abandoned her education at John Hopkin's University because they were unsympathetic to her view that John Lennon was the new Stravinsky (or was it Schostakovich? -- someone like that). So, I'd say these, and presumably similar, comparisons are worth contemplating. Most of us admit to an appreciation for both pop and high art (if not Britney and Beethoven, some reasonable equivalent; someone timely and someone timeless), and, yes, we tend to agree that they serve different purposes. I don't know about you, but after sweating over a profound moral treatise by Tolstoy, I sometimes find it a lot easier to appreciate, if not Miss Spears, at least, a mindless situation comedy. And vice versa; when I have given myself over to something frivolous for a while, I am all the more prepared and willing to give my full appreciation to the works of the masters. Also worth noting is how often insights of true irony and depth can appear in the most unlikely and unassuming places, -- Gary Larsen's comic genius, for instance, is not the least bit inferior to Jonathan Swift's, and John Lennon's ear for sublime melodies may easily rival Chopin's. Conversely, we would be naive if we couldn't see that even the greatest creative genius is not entirely removed from the petty. "You have made your way from worm to man, and there is much within you that is still worm." (~Niezsche) IP: Logged | |
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